High-Level Adventures

[Gandalf]

>At 10:43 PM 5/16/97 +0200, Gandalf the White(gandalf@ath.forthnet.gr)wrote:
>>
>>That's another problem in birthright i'd like to bring up. NPCs are
>>presented as a typical one never goes over 5th lvl, and the really special
>>ones ussually reach say, 12th. So what happens when you just have a normal,
>>lenghty campaign? We have reached a lvl where the DM must really keep
>>trying to keep us from dominating all small states in Anuire...
>>
>
>Your DM should have had his world evolving and growing with you. If not the
>first thing he should do is adjust the levels and resources of a few of his
>major NPCs to match yours. Giving them some nasty little plans of thier own.
>Then he just has to add in a few incidents that are more your level, say a
>Jabberwocky arrives in your land. Or a Fiend has been summoned by a bumbling
>Mage and its terroizing the countryside. A hidden enclave of Mind Flayers
>uses Hill Giant slaves to get them livestock(your citizens). Prehaps one of
>the items you have bears a legacy, and maybe a curse. A visit to the SW may
>be in order to bring down your levels until he is more ready to handle them.
>Its not to hard to keep uping the ante in a BR game the DM just needs to
>prepare for the time the PCs get there. As Players you may want to give your
>DM some time to put together a challenge for your group. Take some time off
>playing BR for awhile until he is ready to give you a run for your money. :)
>
>Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net

Actually, he did start uping the NPC's lvls, and we have given him time for
sth nice... and it's ready now. But that's not my point.
We have enough challenge. But the point is...
isn't itr a bit unrealistic? Take Boeruine. We have no involments with that
jerk so i don't know what the DM has done with him. But say we had.
He's lived 40 years and he's, what?, 12th lvl? Our game has gone on for 9
game years and i am now (mage) 12th lvl, a paladin is 9th, and a
fighter/thief is 8/9. So, will boeruine be 15th lvl now? I mean, he would
need to gain almost 1/3 of the xps he already has to do that! And is he
adventuring as much in his 40s as when in his 20s?
Anyway, as you said, i think, it is just some form of cheating, essential
to keep the game going though.

-

[Nadastor]

At 20.07 16/05/97 -0400, you wrote:
>At 10:43 PM 5/16/97 +0200, Gandalf the White(gandalf@ath.forthnet.gr)wrote:
>>
>>That's another problem in birthright i'd like to bring up. NPCs are
>>presented as a typical one never goes over 5th lvl, and the really special
>>ones ussually reach say, 12th. So what happens when you just have a normal,
>>lenghty campaign? We have reached a lvl where the DM must really keep
>>trying to keep us from dominating all small states in Anuire...
>>
>
>Your DM should have had his world evolving and growing with you. If not the
>first thing he should do is adjust the levels and resources of a few of his
>major NPCs to match yours. Giving them some nasty little plans of thier own.
>Then he just has to add in a few incidents that are more your level, say a
>Jabberwocky arrives in your land. Or a Fiend has been summoned by a bumbling
>Mage and its terroizing the countryside. A hidden enclave of Mind Flayers
>uses Hill Giant slaves to get them livestock(your citizens). Prehaps one of
>the items you have bears a legacy, and maybe a curse. A visit to the SW may
>be in order to bring down your levels until he is more ready to handle them.
>Its not to hard to keep uping the ante in a BR game the DM just needs to
>prepare for the time the PCs get there. As Players you may want to give your
>DM some time to put together a challenge for your group. Take some time off
>playing BR for awhile until he is ready to give you a run for your money. :)
>

Yes, I agree with sll this, but I hate expecially a thing.
I'll try to explain:
Your PCs are different from all the other people in the setting fro their
played by players. But for the realism, role-playing side of the matter they
are exactly like all the others persons. Yes, everyone has his traits but
they are people between people.
I say, how can the PCs gain this lot of level this quicly, when all other in
the world, in all their life, surpass in rare instances the 5th level. How
can your wizard became so quicly of a level more than 10th when Aelies seems
to live since centuries and is yet 14th ? There was something wrong.

INHO we DM have to change the standard ad&D level increase factor. In BR i
think it must be slow to gain such level. Tha art of DMing imposes, i think,
to BR's DM to let player enjoy without gaining so often levels.
I'm not saying they can get to 15th level, but I say they have to fight hard
to get that point, and they'll be at least a bit old. Yes, I'm saying that
there is surely a difference, that you can became of 15th level from 1st in
two weeks, in, for example, FR, and the same in 35 years, in birthright.

Maybe I'm totally wrong, let me know...

Nadastor, Wizard of the Black Robes
"The power of a man is not in his hands, but in his eyes !
His life is not into his body, but into his mind !
The world is not around him, but is in him !"

[ssb201@is5.nyu.edu (Samu]

On Sun, 18 May 1997 01:48:39 -0400, you wrote:


>The point is it shouldn't be cheating. As your group gained levels and =
did
>great things so should of a lot of other Regents. The Duke of Boeruine
>should be 16th or 17th level, if your group has a max of 12. It sounds =
like
>adventure and oppertunity abounds in your game so why shouldn't the NPCs
>rack in a little of this wealth. The Duke should have accumulated a few
>items of power, prehaps even stealing one or two of yours. Remember if =
its
>the same Ruler who started the game he has probably been at this monarch
>thing longer then you. His reach may be very far, even a trusted Lt. =
might
>be a double agent for the Duke. In the end it seems your DM may not have
>anticipated your doing so well so fast and that has unbalanced the game.=
So
>if he has to "cheat"(I hate that word)then you should just go along with=
the
>sudden change in the NPCs around your Party. At least the games fun and
>thats all that matters.=20

I agree, and yet disagree. What makes PC's different from NPC's is that =
they go
out and adventure. There is no reason for The rulers of many lands to do =
so, so
why should they have high levels. If you are an emperor you can order =
high level
people to so stuff you cannot do yourself. Also, adventuring takes time, =
this
means that while the PC's are adventuring their Kingdoms are not getting =
ruled.
Okay, there might ba a good lieutenant, or magically check in on the =
court, etc.
but that is not guaranteed. If the PC's are forced to spend more time =
doing
their jobs, they will have less time to advance so quickly.=20

Another thing which may of be some use is an article in Dragon Magazine =
many
years ago. It introduced a new experience point system. This system had =
normal
xp's and field experience points for soldiers and soldiering. PC's could =
count
some points for both, but most experience only went to the character =
total, army
experience to the other. This meant you could have 2nd or 3rd level =
fighter as a
sergeant, lieutenant, or general. Rulers like Boeruine or Avan, could =
easily
have high numbers of these field experience points. This means that while=
in a
one-on -one fight with a high level character they might crumble, they =
could
outflank and outmaneuver that character any day of the week on a field of
battle. This is a quite realistic system. For example, Napoleon was not =
what
anyone could call a brilliant fighter, however he was an experienced =
commander
and a tactical genius. This is even more realistic because it renews the
importance and influence of war. (No one would ever call Napoleon a =
political
genius.)

=46inally, High Level Characters are just as vulnerable to some attacks =
as anyone
else. Enemies can attack their character, their honor, their loved ones, =
etc. In
fact, except for an archmage, an army can kill almost anyone and =
anything. I
always feel I must force my players into seeing how gray things become =
when
ruling a nation. No matter how powerful the mage or fighter, there is =
only so
much that one person can do. When faced with drought, unemployment, etc. =
there
is only so much a character of any level can do. It is actually worse for=
a high
level character, because they feel a futility that all their advancement =
cannot
solve. The characters have to deal with attacks that do not personally =
affect
them, but hurt those they rule. One of my greatest sessions occurred when=
a
beloved and trusted lieutenant was assassinated by another ruler. What =
made it
so difficult was that this ruler was bringing armies and economic support
necessary to win the war. What are the players to do? Sacrifice the =
nation and
lose the war to punish an evil act? Support an evil and manipulative =
ruler who
had personally hurt the players? Or something else? As you can see an =
adventure
need not be so easy, just because the characters are powerful. =20

Samuel Bucholtz
ssb201@is5.nyu.edu

P.S. Some of this will only work if the ruler is not CE or NE, in that =
case you
could destroy the entire nation and the character will not care.

[Rasmus Juul Wagner]

On Fri, 16 May 1997, Undertaker wrote:

> At 10:43 PM 5/16/97 +0200, Gandalf the White(gandalf@ath.forthnet.gr)wrote:
> >
> >That's another problem in birthright i'd like to bring up. NPCs are
> >presented as a typical one never goes over 5th lvl, and the really special
> >ones ussually reach say, 12th. So what happens when you just have a normal,
> >lenghty campaign? We have reached a lvl where the DM must really keep
> >trying to keep us from dominating all small states in Anuire...
> >
>
> A visit to the SW may
> be in order to bring down your levels until he is more ready to handle them.

Oh, this will really piss off your players. It is blatantly unfair. Do
NOT design an adventure to drain them of a few levels.
Actually, the level-draining mechanic probably takes the prize as the most
awful game mechanic blunder ever.

> Its not to hard to keep uping the ante in a BR game the DM just needs to
> prepare for the time the PCs get there. As Players you may want to give your
> DM some time to put together a challenge for your group. Take some time off
> playing BR for awhile until he is ready to give you a run for your money. :)
>
> Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net
>
> "War is a matter of vital importance to the State;
> the province of life or death;
> the road to survival or ruin.
> It is mandatory that it be thoroughly studied."
> -Sun Tzu,(The Art of War)-
>
> ************************************************** *************************
> > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>


...Loading /dull.sig...
************************************************** ******
Rasmus Juul Wagner
Technical University of Denmark
************************************************** ******

[Sean Brown]

> Oh, this will really piss off your players. It is blatantly unfair. Do
> NOT design an adventure to drain them of a few levels.
> Actually, the level-draining mechanic probably takes the prize as the most
> awful game mechanic blunder ever.

What exactly do you mean by unfair? trying to correct a mistake made
earlier is never really easy, but this at lesat gives them a fighting
chance...Why is the level drain a "mechanic blunder"? Is it just
because YOU don't like it. It is extremely good for putting a scare
into high level characters because it is one of the few things that
can hurt them.. No save, and only a few magic item can protect you.

Sean

[Nadastor]

At 01.34 18/05/97 -0400, you wrote:
>At 08:56 PM 5/17/97 +0100, Nadastor(nadastor@mail5.clio.it)wrote:
>>
>
>>
>>INHO we DM have to change the standard ad&D level increase factor. In BR i
>>think it must be slow to gain such level. Tha art of DMing imposes, i think,
>>to BR's DM to let player enjoy without gaining so often levels.
>>I'm not saying they can get to 15th level, but I say they have to fight hard
>>to get that point, and they'll be at least a bit old. Yes, I'm saying that
>>there is surely a difference, that you can became of 15th level from 1st in
>>two weeks, in, for example, FR, and the same in 35 years, in birthright.
>>
>
>I noticed a similar problem with other games I had been running before BR. I
>started cutting the Exp. value of most larger monsters in half(or more).
>Groups of lesser monsters(Skeletons, Zombies, 1HD Orcs, etc.)I made only
>worth the value of one of them. By slowing the party's progression I was
>able to use some of the better mid-level plot lines I had, without the party
>blowing past them before I had a chance. And I found with progression slowed
>the Players started focusing less on Experience Points, and more on the
>other abilities of thier characters. On the surface this might seem unfair
>but in the long run everyone enjoyed the game more, and thats all that counts.
>
>
>Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net
>



I agree with you, I did somethings similar in my Greyhawk, Dragonlance and
Dark Sun campaigns, but I didn't half the XP for monster, I bother myself
developing an alternative XP system.

Is there someone who know a XP system (other than that of AD&D but similar)
that go well?

Nadastor, Wizard of the Black Robes
"The power of a man is not in his hands, but in his eyes !
His life is not into his body, but into his mind !
The world is not around him, but is in him !"

[Nadastor]

At 01.48 18/05/97 -0400, you wrote:
>At 03:20 PM 5/17/97 +0200, Gandalf(gandalf@ath.forthnet.gr)wrote:
>>
>>Actually, he did start uping the NPC's lvls, and we have given him time for
>>sth nice... and it's ready now. But that's not my point.
>>We have enough challenge. But the point is...
>>isn't itr a bit unrealistic? Take Boeruine. We have no involments with that
>>jerk so i don't know what the DM has done with him. But say we had.
>>He's lived 40 years and he's, what?, 12th lvl? Our game has gone on for 9
>>game years and i am now (mage) 12th lvl, a paladin is 9th, and a
>>fighter/thief is 8/9. So, will boeruine be 15th lvl now? I mean, he would
>>need to gain almost 1/3 of the xps he already has to do that! And is he
>>adventuring as much in his 40s as when in his 20s?
>>Anyway, as you said, i think, it is just some form of cheating, essential
>>to keep the game going though.
>>
>
>The point is it shouldn't be cheating. As your group gained levels and did
>great things so should of a lot of other Regents. The Duke of Boeruine
>should be 16th or 17th level, if your group has a max of 12. It sounds like
>adventure and oppertunity abounds in your game so why shouldn't the NPCs
>rack in a little of this wealth. The Duke should have accumulated a few
>items of power, prehaps even stealing one or two of yours. Remember if its
>the same Ruler who started the game he has probably been at this monarch
>thing longer then you. His reach may be very far, even a trusted Lt. might
>be a double agent for the Duke. In the end it seems your DM may not have
>anticipated your doing so well so fast and that has unbalanced the game. So
>if he has to "cheat"(I hate that word)then you should just go along with the
>sudden change in the NPCs around your Party. At least the games fun and
>thats all that matters.
>
>Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net
>


Once or twice let happen that some duke or count etc..., maybe an enemy,
maybe no, die during his adventuirng without involvement with the PCs. Let's
say, tell your players during a domain turn simply that arrives the news of
the death of someone, and let them know that the others die like them
adventuring. It will keep all more realistic.

But IMHO this is not the solution. So, it seems, is only a question of
wanting, to reach 17th level, I mean, for example.
I don't think that anybody that wants that can go adventuring and gain such
a great level. I mean that this is only for a small elite of great example
of humankind, some, few, hero can. Instead in your Cerilia all who go with
your PC is gaining level at an incredible rate, it will seems to your
players that they aren't doing somethings different from the rest of scion.
They don't feel great heros.

And it's not all. Take all the regent of your anuirean campaign, for
example, calculate their average level when the campaign starts, calculate
it now.
The world don't go by step, it flow. The average Lv must be quite the same
in the years. It's a general rule for any social contest. If this average
"level of skilling" grows it means that your society is growing.
But if it goes from an average of 5th to an average of 15th, your are saying
that there is going a revolution like the industrial one for our history.
That is, it can happen, but you must have a cause, can't simply say that is
happening cause there are the PCs know.

Even if this incredible growing go only among the scions, it is unrealistic
in an extreme way, IMHO, to go with.

Nadastor, Wizard of the Black Robes
"The power of a man is not in his hands, but in his eyes !
His life is not into his body, but into his mind !
The world is not around him, but is in him !"

[Undertaker]

At 02:42 PM 5/18/97 +0200, Rasmus Juul Wagner(c958650@student.dtu.dk)wrote:
>
>On Fri, 16 May 1997, Undertaker wrote:
>
>>
>> A visit to the SW may be in order to bring down your
>> levels until he is more ready to handle them.
>>
>
>Oh, this will really piss off your players. It is blatantly unfair. Do
>NOT design an adventure to drain them of a few levels.
>Actually, the level-draining mechanic probably takes the prize as the most
>awful game mechanic blunder ever.
>

I know its awful, but sometimes a DM has to take drastic measures to bring a
game back under control. A magic item gets broken, gold is stolen, and yes
levels drained. In my own games I perfer to use Stat or HP draining, as
level draining is plain mean and can cause hurt feelings. If a creature
takes 1 or 2 points permantely from a Stat or HPs each hit, the PCs become
terrified of Undead encounters without becoming angry. Still desperate times
call for desperate measures. If sudden unexpected level advancement are the
main problem then level draining might be in order. Besides with a little
work the PCs need never know the adventure was centered around them losing
levels. You can shrug and say, "sorry...it was the dice." And if the
adventure is good enough they will soon calm down remembering the cool
things that happened during it. I do agree that level draining is far from
the best game mechanic in AD&D, but at times it does have its place.





Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net

"War is a matter of vital importance to the State;
the province of life or death;
the road to survival or ruin.
It is mandatory that it be thoroughly studied."
-Sun Tzu,(The Art of War)-

[Nadastor]

At 15.59 18/05/97 AST, you wrote:
>
>> Oh, this will really piss off your players. It is blatantly unfair. Do
>> NOT design an adventure to drain them of a few levels.
>> Actually, the level-draining mechanic probably takes the prize as the most
>> awful game mechanic blunder ever.
>
>What exactly do you mean by unfair? trying to correct a mistake made
>earlier is never really easy, but this at lesat gives them a fighting
>chance...Why is the level drain a "mechanic blunder"? Is it just
>because YOU don't like it. It is extremely good for putting a scare
>into high level characters because it is one of the few things that
>can hurt them.. No save, and only a few magic item can protect you.
>
>Sean
>


I think it is a matter of how we see our DM duty.
For me my duty is to recreate the real world in my fantastic players' mind.
In the real world there is luck, but, IMHO, there is no one who prepare an
encounter with a manager so that your live will be more interesting.
A lot of people argue that doing this i'm falling my DM's job, not going to
prepare the road of my Players, i can only answer that they feel going to
make their own life with their hands, with, yes, the luck interfering sometimes.
I think it's exactly how we real person feel like. Going to make our life
with the interference of luck.
No one, in my life, decides that i have to encounter someone to drop a
level, so be it in my campaing.
At the end what i can say... it goes, my players enjoy in a great ways my
campaigns, they feel "living", their words.

Nadastor, Wizard of the Black Robes
"The power of a man is not in his hands, but in his eyes !
His life is not into his body, but into his mind !
The world is not around him, but is in him !"

[David Sean Brown]

> I think it is a matter of how we see our DM duty.
> For me my duty is to recreate the real world in my fantastic players' mind.
> In the real world there is luck, but, IMHO, there is no one who prepare an
> encounter with a manager so that your live will be more interesting.
> A lot of people argue that doing this i'm falling my DM's job, not going to
> prepare the road of my Players, i can only answer that they feel going to
> make their own life with their hands, with, yes, the luck interfering sometimes.
> I think it's exactly how we real person feel like. Going to make our life
> with the interference of luck.
> No one, in my life, decides that i have to encounter someone to drop a
> level, so be it in my campaing.
> At the end what i can say... it goes, my players enjoy in a great ways my
> campaigns, they feel "living", their words.

well, the way I see it, anythig you as DM decide to throw at your players,
then would be interfering. Just because you put your characters agains a
vampire, or other level draining creature, doesn't mean it will result in
a character being drained. That would depemd on how lucky and creative
the PCs are. You say that you don't decide top have to PCs encounter
someine to drop them a level, but I suppose you do decide to have them run
into something that could kill them? This isn't really the way things go
in real life either, is it? As a DM it is our responsibility to provide
the characters with a challenge, in order to make the game more
interesting. If you start to find that higher level PCs aren't afraid any
moer, then I feel it is up to the DM to find out how to fix it...fear is a
great motivator, and an outstanding way to rekindle PCs interest in what
is going on. I am not saying that because y9ou don't use this in your
campaign it is any worse for it..I am sure your players ejoy it
immensly..I mearly think it isanother weapon in the DMs arsenial.

Sean