contest action

[Rasmus Juul Wagner]

Well, I received a nice reply (thank you), but it wasnt what I wanted...
My originbal questiuon was meant as "What is actually HAPPENING when you
perform a contest action?". What are your people doing to the enemy?



************************************************** ******
Rasmus Juul Wagner
Technical University of Denmark
************************************************** ******

[Bresser, R.T.]

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> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 07:58:58 +0100 (MET)
> From: Rasmus Juul Wagner
> To: birthright mailing list
> Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - contest action
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> Well, I received a nice reply (thank you), but it wasnt what I wanted...
> My originbal questiuon was meant as "What is actually HAPPENING when you
> perform a contest action?". What are your people doing to the enemy?
>
>
>
> ************************************************** ******
> Rasmus Juul Wagner
> Technical University of Denmark
> ************************************************** ******
>
In my opinion, there are a thousand possible ways in which you can
contest a holding. The contest action in the rulebook is just a
simplification of what would probably happen in reality; all you see
is the outcome of whatever you did to overcome your opponent. The only
disadvantage is that you lose a lot of detail and flavor, because
you don't know what it was exactly that you've done. In our campaign,
we have tried to make the contest action more interesting by giving a
description of how you try to contest someone's holding. For example,
the PC-led guild in our campaign was suddenly confronted with certain
criminal elements that burnt down his warehouses and molested his
employees. In this manner the rival guild in that province
tried to contest his holdings. The PC solved this problem by hiring
some thugs to protect his property and catch the other guild's thugs
(in other words: he did a rule action). Personally, I think it's much
more fun (there's more of a roleplaying element in your domain
actions) and it also improves the atmosphere in your campaign (you
could be violent or peaceful in your approach to your opponents; you
might be able to contest a holding without your opponent actually
noticing your identity because of your subtle methods, etc.)

So to answer your question: nothing really happens during a contest
action, unless you describe what happens yourself. It's a game
mechanic, just like the attack roll: you know the result, but not how
you got it (that's up to your own imagination).

I hope my point of view is of any use. See ya,

Roald

[Seb Berendse]

> So to answer your question: nothing really happens during a contest
> action, unless you describe what happens yourself. It's a game
> mechanic, just like the attack roll: you know the result, but not how
> you got it (that's up to your own imagination).

I think this is indeed the right course of action (but then again I
was the above mentioned PC Guilder) but to make some examples I will
add some stuff:
Contesting:
* cut trade(routes) from a Guilder by eliminating the possibilities
to make money (burn stores, sack markets, hijack caravans, spread
nasty rumors, poison their foodsupplies)
* actually take an army and dig in around the Holding contested. Make
sure noone gets in or out, try to starve them to death, start an
'irritate-the local-population-and-he-can't-do-anything-against-me-for
I-am-way-stronger-then-he-is-campaign' in order to let the grip of
his/her law on the populace dwinde. On the opposite of this coin: try
to show populace that you are more capable of ruling then the
opponent (commit a crime you solve yourself, be he can't because you
won't let him).
* for a Priest to be contested: dissuade the flock, molest temples
and their priests, give hefty sermons against the other god

I know some of the mentioned actions come very close to an agitate
action, but that can be part of the package I think.

Sebastiaan

************************************************** ***************
Sebastiaan G.P. Berendse
148530@student.fbk.eur.nl

There is a world just around the corner of your mind
where reality is an intruder and dreams come true.
You may escape into it at will, you need no secret password,
magic wand or Alladins Lamp, all you need is your own imagination...
************************************************** *******************

[Bresser, R.T.]

> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:56:28 -0900 (PDT)
> From: "Jan P. M. Arnoldus"
> To: Birthright
> Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Contest Action
> Reply-to: birthright@MPGN.COM

>
> Greetings wise ones,
>
> I have had some problems lately with the contest action as it is
> described in the rule book.
>
> I used to think that you had to have a holding of the same kind to be
> able to contest a holding of somebody else.
> (i.e. you need a guild holding to contest a guild holding).
> But lately a somebody tried to contest my source holding while he didn't
> own a source holding in the province so I checked again.
>
> The text of the contest action only says that the contesting regent must
> have another holding in the province to be able to contest. This would
> seem to argue in favor of being able to contest across holdings
> (i.e. a temple contesting a guild)
> But the text then goes on to state that success number is modified by
> the difference between the attacker's holding rating and that of the
> defender. This would seem to indicate that you only can use one of your
> holdings in the contest action.
> (i.e. a regent controlling law and temples could only use one of the two
> in a contestation)
> I would say that since it is the controlling regent who performs the
> action that he should be allowed to choose wether he uses all or just
> part of his influence in the province.
>
> A final argument for cross holding contestation is given in the final
> section where it says that in a province where the ruler's law is at 0
> any regent in the province can contest for the rule of the province.
>
>
>
> A special case in these contestations would seem to be the contestation
> of a source. While in all other contestations there are things which can
> be influenced (people, buildings, agreements) in this kind of
> contestation there is only the metaphysical link between the mage and his
> source. This would seem to advocate for the idea that only regents
> with source holdings can contest other source holdings.
>
>
> If anybody has another two cp to add to these ponderings about the contest
> action I would like to hear them.
>
> Jan Arnoldus 080768ja@student.eur.nl
> ************************************************** ***************************
> Dovie'andi se tovya sagain (It's time to roll the dice)
>
>
>
> ************************************************** *************************
> > The way that I interpreted you can only contest another holding of
the same type, except for law holdings that can contest any of them.
That's because the RB states somewhere (I think in the 'contest'
action description that rulers can contest all the holdings in their
domain's.

By the way, what would you gain if you as for instance a priest
contested a guild holding? You wouldn't be able to gain any regency
from them anyway! Also, in our campaign, priests can't have guild
holdings, because it kind of spoils the flavor of the setting.

However the 'contest' action is rather vague and furthermore rather
abstract, so I would like to here more about it.

Roald

[Dustin Evermore]

>
>The way that I interpreted you can only contest another holding of
>the same type, except for law holdings that can contest any of them.
>That's because the RB states somewhere (I think in the 'contest'
>action description that rulers can contest all the holdings in their
>domain's.

Hmm.. The way I do it IMC is that the Province ruler can contest any
holding, be it law, temple, or guild. Sources are exempt from this unless the
Province ruler can find some way of locating it, either by employing a
blooded wizard or using a magic item.
>
>By the way, what would you gain if you as for instance a priest
>contested a guild holding? You wouldn't be able to gain any regency
>from them anyway! Also, in our campaign, priests can't have guild
>holdings, because it kind of spoils the flavor of the setting.
>

What about Priests of Eloele? She is the goddess of thieves, and even
grants her priests thieving abilities equal to half their level. Although
they gain no regency for it, the Priests might still turn a pretty penny
for running them...

>However the 'contest' action is rather vague and furthermore rather
>abstract, so I would like to here more about it.

I second that! All kinds of cool story stuff could be happening, but
wouldn't it be great to come up with a list of short synopses indicating what
happens in the world of Cerilia when holdings and provinces are
contested?
Dustin Evermore

[Diana L. Paxson]

In response to Robert Harper & He Who Spoke Before:

> >I have had some problems lately with the contest action as it is
> >described in the rule book.
> >
> >I used to think that you had to have a holding of the same kind to be
> >able to contest a holding of somebody else.
> >(i.e. you need a guild holding to contest a guild holding).
> >But lately a somebody tried to contest my source holding while he didn't
> >own a source holding in the province so I checked again.
>
> I view your interpretation (most recent) as correct. Anyone with influence,
> be it mercantile, religious, lawful or magical, can use that influence to
> disrupt the affairs of another. Contest does not have to be about taking
> over the holding, just getting rid of its current holder.
>
> Recently had a province ruler in my campaign Contest a Temple Holder into
> the ground because he disapproved of the religion in question. There should
> be no question the Ruler can do this, and by extension Law Holder. Ability
> of church or mercants to influence each other and law pretty clear as well.
>
> Only tricky one is Source due to its less 'substantial' nature. But thought
> of as connection to nature and land, its ability to work against others and
> be worked against itself becomes clearer.
>
> I see no problem with cross-holding type contests. Give PC's more things to
> spend on and more things to worry about. Essence of a good campaign is choices.

I think it all comes down to how you define your holdings and how they
interact. Law holdings in one's own domain is defined as the local
constabulary, but in others it may be discribed as thugs or banditry.
Law, Guild and Temple holdings are made up of people handling those
matters for the regent. If High Druid Max desides the local loging
Guild has got to go, his followers will do their best to comply with his
will. If Guildmaster Guedo desides the cops are getting too restrictive,
Sheriff Bobbo may find some of his men are "retiring early". Etc,etc...

The same goes for Sources. If a wizard has defined the Source as being
focused within a grove of trees and Guilder Guedo drops by with his
lumberjacks, well...
This dosn't mean the wizard can't take a few precautions of his own.
(The information on Sources in the Magecraft book has lots of good ideas
for the finding and defining of Source holdings)

Later...
- --
Grendel Todd