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Thread: A thief and his money
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01-18-1997, 01:17 AM #1rcantin@oricom.ca (RobinGuest
A thief and his money
Not that I don't think alignment is important, but I'd like to start a new
discussion thred here...
Now, it's been discussed briefly before, but I'd like to come back on the
matter of the incredible amount of money a thief regent can cash in with
holding and trade routes.
I play a thief who happens to be baron (Fhiele Dhoesone in Dhoesone) and
who's the happy owner of 11 guild holdings (total level 24) and a large, if
sparsely-populated domain. She makes 26 GBs a turn just with the guilds and
trade routes, which seems a bit excessive to me. I know that situation
isn't unique. Domains like Endier, for instance, can become incredibly
rich.
So what can a DM do to limit This concentration of money? I'd like to
propose some means to do that. Some are mine, others have already been
proposed on this list. I hope to get some pther suggestions back.
1- Tax those guilds! Except in the cases where the guilder is domain regent
(obviously), every law holding should be used to tax the guild holdings as
per table 19 (RB, p. 44). This should decrease revenues of about 20-30%.
As a consequence of this, regents should not tolerate law holdings owned by
guilds and should seek to appropriate them.
2- Guild competition. Profitable guilds make the envy of nearby guilders,
so the DM should strart a guild war once in a while (this can be a great
long-term story plot, BTW). Note that a large province can support only 3
trade routes (RB p. 60), so guilders might want to destroy a concurrent
holding to make place for one of his own valuable trade route.
3- Caravan protection. When a trade route passes through a province, the
local constabulary must insure its protection, so it's only normal the
guild pays a three-monthly fee for safe passage to everyone that has law
holdings in each province. This should be negociated when the route is
established.
4- Many rulers will want some of the guild profits and make threats. Having
one's guild reduced systematically isn't good for business!
Hoping to receive other ways to separate a guilder and his money,
Robin
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01-19-1997, 12:30 AM #2Ian HoskinsGuest
A thief and his money
On 18-Jan-97, Robin Cantin wrote:
- ->I play a thief who happens to be baron (Fhiele Dhoesone in Dhoesone) and
- ->who's the happy owner of 11 guild holdings (total level 24) and a large, if
- ->sparsely-populated domain. She makes 26 GBs a turn just with the guilds and
- ->trade routes, which seems a bit excessive to me. I know that situation
- ->isn't unique. Domains like Endier, for instance, can become incredibly
- ->rich.
A thief regent in my campaign (who now rules Endier) makes about 64 GB a turn,
and hardly ever spends any, so he has about 500 GB in the bank at the moment.
- ->So what can a DM do to limit This concentration of money? I'd like to
- ->propose some means to do that. Some are mine, others have already been
- ->proposed on this list. I hope to get some pther suggestions back.
- ->1- Tax those guilds! Except in the cases where the guilder is domain regent
- ->(obviously), every law holding should be used to tax the guild holdings as
- ->per table 19 (RB, p. 44). This should decrease revenues of about 20-30%.
- ->As a consequence of this, regents should not tolerate law holdings owned by
- ->guilds and should seek to appropriate them.
That is ok for NPC realm, my player generally donates an set amount of money
to the ruler of Diemed (about 8 GB I think), but the rest of the provinces he
has guilds in are owned by PC's and they almost never seem to get around to
claiming money with there law holdings, and I never remind them. Of course
taxing by law holdings never affects trade routes.
- ->2- Guild competition. Profitable guilds make the envy of nearby guilders,
- ->so the DM should strart a guild war once in a while (this can be a great
- ->long-term story plot, BTW). Note that a large province can support only 3
- ->trade routes (RB p. 60), so guilders might want to destroy a concurrent
- ->holding to make place for one of his own valuable trade route.
This is what I use to keep my player limited in the number of trade route he
can have. I think he only really has trade routes from Illien (his former
kingdom) and Endier (his current kingdom) as NPC guilder have taken all of the
other avalible slots in provinces where he has guild holding (eg imperial
city, and in Diemed). This generally means that each of the guilder based
nearby is pulling in nearly as much money as my player.
Actually a large province can support 6 trade routes if it is a port, 3 sea,
and 3 land.
- ->3- Caravan protection. When a trade route passes through a province, the
- ->local constabulary must insure its protection, so it's only normal the
- ->guild pays a three-monthly fee for safe passage to everyone that has law
- ->holdings in each province. This should be negociated when the route is
- ->established.
As the regent of any province a trade route passes through can stop it, this
is probably the best way of slowing a guilder earnings. Unless of course it is
a sea trade route which travels by sea and cannot be effected this way. In
this case you need my old friend the Seadrake to make an appearence often,
takeing a portion of the profits from each trip (not more than a GB or so).
- ->4- Many rulers will want some of the guild profits and make threats. Having
- ->one's guild reduced systematically isn't good for business!
Unless the guilder is ruler of his own province then he is free to do as he
chooses.
The best way I have found to seperate a thief from his money is to entice him
to spend it, which he does quite readily. My thief player spends nearly as
much as he earns on paying servents and bribing people. (about 10 GB on
bribes). Paying a wizard to help him out in the province he rules, building
his new castle, and trying to spy on people. Also every time he goes on an
adventure he gets plenty of opertunities to spend his money, as in this weeks
abventure when he spent 20 GB (buying a new ship and outfitting it) and gained
10GB in treasure.
- --
Darkstar
hoss@satech.net.au
http://www.satech.net.au/~hoss/index.html
`Now weary traveller rest your head
because just like me you're totally dead.'
A.J. Rimmer Bsc Ssc
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01-19-1997, 09:15 AM #3Lee F BernhardGuest
A thief and his money
Ian Hoskins wrote:
> A thief regent in my campaign (who now rules Endier) makes about 64 GB a turn,
> and hardly ever spends any, so he has about 500 GB in the bank at the moment.
It seems to me that excessive accumulation of wealth would attract more
than a little attention; say from surrounding reagents, awnsheghlien,
rivals,
etc. Do you consider this money to exist in cash, or in the form of
cargo,
bank drafts, and other capital?
>
> ->So what can a DM do to limit This concentration of money? I'd like to
> ->propose some means to do that. Some are mine, others have already been
> ->proposed on this list. I hope to get some pther suggestions back.
The greater the wealth, the greater the temptation it poses to others to
take it away from the wealthy PC reagent. In addition to threats from
other
rulers and rulers, the player's own lieutenants may covet being in sole
control
of such a fortune. And remember that the guilds are only
half-legitimate; they
are made up of some rather rough people who wouldn't be too upset by the
need to kill someone to make, well, a killing.
Out of curiousity, how legitimate do people consider their guilds to
be? Do you
have some that are merchant houses and others that are networks of
gamblers,
highwaymen, beggars, prostitutes, and thieves? Or do you consider each
guild
to be made up of elements of both sides of "business"?
Lee
- --
Lee Bernhard
lfb@fast.net
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01-19-1997, 11:58 PM #4Ian HoskinsGuest
A thief and his money
On 19-Jan-97, Lee F Bernhard wrote:
- ->> A thief regent in my campaign (who now rules Endier) makes about 64 GB a
- ->turn,
- ->> and hardly ever spends any, so he has about 500 GB in the bank at the
- ->moment.
- ->It seems to me that excessive accumulation of wealth would attract more
- ->than a little attention; say from surrounding reagents, awnsheghlien,
- ->rivals
Well actually he is a awnsheigh, he has become so monsterous looking that he
has to wear robes to cover his entire body when ever he leaves his castle. Of
course some of his neighbours are becoming a little suspicious.
As for other regents after his money, well the prince of Avinil does have 5
units of soilders inside his kingdom of Endier (keeping an eye on Ghoere), so
should Darien Avan ever need a lot of money in a hurry, he already has a
foothold in Endier ready to strike.
- ->etc. Do you consider this money to exist in cash, or in the form of
- ->cargo,
- ->bank drafts, and other capital?
A lot of his money is tied up in real estate. Every time he increases his
guild holdings somewhere then he has to spend money building warehouses etc,
and these buildings tie up a lot of his money. Of course if anything ever
happens to these buildings then some of his weath also is lost.
Also my player owns a large banking empire as part of his guild, so a lot of
money is tied up in this bank.
- --
Darkstar
hoss@satech.net.au
http://www.satech.net.au/~hoss/index.html
`Now weary traveller rest your head
because just like me you're totally dead.'
A.J. Rimmer Bsc Ssc
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01-20-1997, 06:29 PM #5Jonathan PicklesimerGuest
A thief and his money
Hey folks, call me a tightwad or whatever, but if you have a Thief regent
making 63 GB per DT with over 500 GB in saings, something is wrong!
Perhaps you should also consider the fact that provinces do not have
limitless resources. Sometimes trade goods run out due to bad weather, a
change in economic emphasis in the province (such as the discovery of
gold in local streams), and burnout. Let's face it, even in today's
society, there are only so many trees you can strip from the land before
you have to wait a LONG time to harest more trees. The same thing is
true of work by craftsmen. It takes time to build furniture, weae cloth
and sew garments. It is physically impossible for an aritsan and his
apprentice to produce 2 GB worth of furniture in 3 months! It is just
too much work! Remember that mass production is not something that
Cerillians know about!
Even if a PC is ruler of a domain, there may still be other influences
that can upset him. I know that if I were a king and my neighbor was
bringing in 63 GB eery 3 months in a province the size of Endier, I would
get really upset! I would have probably done everything that I could to
sabotage the other ruler before they gained an exorbiant amount of
money. Think about the Gorgon, for example. His domain brings in nearly
100 GB per DT, and it is HUGE! Would any regents in Annuire get upset if
the Gorgon suddently started accumulating massive amounts of money? You
bet they would! 500 GB is enough to BUY most if the economy in a LARGE
area.
I contend that you can contain theif regents and the money they earn from
guild and trade holdings. You just have to work harder as a DM to out
wit, out manuever, out bribe the theif.
Please don't take this as a personal slam, because it isn't! :) I just
find it hard to believe that all of the regents around Endier would allow
something like this to happen!
Jonathan
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01-20-1997, 07:00 PM #6Mike CarscaddenGuest
A thief and his money
Jonathan Picklesimer wrote:
>
> Hey folks, call me a tightwad or whatever, but if you have a Thief regent
> making 63 GB per DT with over 500 GB in saings, something is wrong!
>
> Perhaps you should also consider the fact that provinces do not have
> limitless resources. Sometimes trade goods run out due to bad weather, a
> change in economic emphasis in the province (such as the discovery of
> gold in local streams), and burnout. Let's face it, even in today's
> society, there are only so many trees you can strip from the land before
> you have to wait a LONG time to harest more trees. The same thing is
> true of work by craftsmen. It takes time to build furniture, weae cloth
> and sew garments. It is physically impossible for an aritsan and his
> apprentice to produce 2 GB worth of furniture in 3 months! It is just
> too much work! Remember that mass production is not something that
> Cerillians know about!
>
> Even if a PC is ruler of a domain, there may still be other influences
> that can upset him. I know that if I were a king and my neighbor was
> bringing in 63 GB eery 3 months in a province the size of Endier, I would
> get really upset! I would have probably done everything that I could to
> sabotage the other ruler before they gained an exorbiant amount of
> money. Think about the Gorgon, for example. His domain brings in nearly
> 100 GB per DT, and it is HUGE! Would any regents in Annuire get upset if
> the Gorgon suddently started accumulating massive amounts of money? You
> bet they would! 500 GB is enough to BUY most if the economy in a LARGE
> area.
>
> I contend that you can contain theif regents and the money they earn from
> guild and trade holdings. You just have to work harder as a DM to out
> wit, out manuever, out bribe the theif.
>
> Please don't take this as a personal slam, because it isn't! :) I just
> find it hard to believe that all of the regents around Endier would allow
> something like this to happen!
>
> Jonathan
> ************************************************** *************************
> > I agree wholeheartedly. I use the devastation rule in the Talinie
sourcebook as a rough guide. You can continue to industrialize but if
you do the source rating drops. Then you piss off the resident mage and
he comes down with his undead leigon and smites your puny guild right
off the map. It really does make guilders (thief sounds evil) think
twice about raping a province of all its resources. Plus if the local
mage isn't tough enough have the elves come after him or a psychotic
druid. Either way 500gb is too much. Where did you say he lived
because that much money would be reason enough to go to war. I'd kill
him for it and his blood as a bonus.
The Locust
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01-20-1997, 09:21 PM #7Ian HoskinsGuest
A thief and his money
On 21-Jan-97, Jonathan Picklesimer wrote:
- ->Hey folks, call me a tightwad or whatever, but if you have a Thief regent
- ->making 63 GB per DT with over 500 GB in saings, something is wrong!
By the way that is not a profit of 63 GB / turn. He has to spend about 45 GB
maintaining his empire so only a profit of about 18 GB, less expenses for
anything occuring during the domain turn. Also I have been running this
campaign every weekend since a couple of weeks after birthright came out. With
an average of about 1 & 1/2 DT / week the PCs have had a lot of time to save
up some money.
The thief regent is the only one with a lot of money too, the other PC regents
have, 5 GB (Roesone) and 23 GB (Medoere).
- ->Perhaps you should also consider the fact that provinces do not have
- ->limitless resources. Sometimes trade goods run out due to bad weather, a
- ->change in economic emphasis in the province (such as the discovery of
- ->gold in local streams), and burnout. Let's face it, even in today's
- ->society, there are only so many trees you can strip from the land before
- ->you have to wait a LONG time to harest more trees. The same thing is
- ->true of work by craftsmen. It takes time to build furniture, weae cloth
- ->and sew garments. It is physically impossible for an aritsan and his
- ->apprentice to produce 2 GB worth of furniture in 3 months! It is just
- ->too much work! Remember that mass production is not something that
- ->Cerillians know about!
- ->Even if a PC is ruler of a domain, there may still be other influences
- ->that can upset him. I know that if I were a king and my neighbor was
- ->bringing in 63 GB eery 3 months in a province the size of Endier, I would
- ->get really upset! I would have probably done everything that I could to
- ->sabotage the other ruler before they gained an exorbiant amount of
- ->money. Think about the Gorgon, for example. His domain brings in nearly
- ->100 GB per DT, and it is HUGE! Would any regents in Annuire get upset if
- ->the Gorgon suddently started accumulating massive amounts of money? You
- ->bet they would! 500 GB is enough to BUY most if the economy in a LARGE
- ->area.
- ->I contend that you can contain theif regents and the money they earn from
- ->guild and trade holdings. You just have to work harder as a DM to out
- ->wit, out manuever, out bribe the theif.
Ok now to answer all of the above points.
To start with the player has not always been in control of Endier, he captured
it about 4 years ago. To start with he was without a realm based in Illien.
Now without a realm thieves can make a lot of money with trade routes etc. Now
at the time with other players as regents in Roesone and Medoere they never
seemed to want to tax the thief, athough they had built up their law holding
to max by now.
They also allowed the thief to build an army based in his guild holdings using
his fortune of about 150 GB (remember ports of call exchange begins with 45
Gb). With this army he captured Illen from its then ruler and moved his
operation there.
Now based in Illen he started building up places and armies so that for most
of the next few years of game time his fortune rose by only a small amount to
about 200 Gb. Also so at this time he started creating trade routes until the
guild had 5 trade routes based in Illen, 2 land and 3 sea, and two trade
routes in other provinces.
Now you may think bringing in large amount of money and saving it up like the
player in my campaign is impossible, but remember that Illen has a population
of over 70,000 people, the second largest city in Anuire. Now how much income
do you think each person in Illien might make on average, 1gp, 2gp, or more.
Now if each person in Illen earns say 2 gp a turn then every year they are
earning about 30 000 gp for the whole kingdom. Now the regent at the time had
only light taxes at the time so take of about 10 000 gp as taxes. Now that
leaves the kingdom about 20 000 gp of 10 Gb to spend or save each turn. Now
seeing as my player controls most of the economy in Illien (Level 7 guild
holding) that means that if they are going to spend money then they are going
to spend money in the guilds shops, and if they are going to bank money then
they are going to bank it in the cities banks, also controlled by the regent.
So a fair proportion of of the remaining 10 Gb will go back to the regent in
the form of earnings from his guild holdings.
So each domain turn he is probably bringing in about 12-15 Gb from Illien
alone in the form of taxes and guild sales. Also Illien is home to a large
resort town on its south eastern border, and that must bring in some money
from nobles visiting for the rest etc.
Now Illien is also a trade city so not all of the good brought into Illien by
the regents ships (total about 25 Gb worth) are used in Illien, most will go
onto other locations, taken north into Anuire or by ship onto other kingdoms.
Now transfering these goods from Illien onward is not necessarily done by the
the player. Other guilds may have trade routes to provinces where Ports of
call exchange is based bringing in their goods and taking out spices etc. It
is a lot easier for a guild to buy goods off someone in Anuire that send their
own ships to get the goods.
So after all of this is added up the income at the time was about 57 Gb with
about 40 Gb in expenses.
Now to continue the story of the Thief regent. After taking Illien (this was
early in the campaign) he built up his guilds based in Illien and created many
trade routes. Thing went along nicely with his guilds gaining holdings in many
provinces in Diemed, Roesone, Medoere, and Ghoere. Until he was the most
powerful guilder in all of Anuire. Then he went a little mad and started
attacking other players when ever he saw them. After killing one (stabbed
through heart while sleeping) the other players decided that maybe having this
regent in their kingdoms wasn't a good idea after all so several of his guild
holdings in Roesone and Medoere were burnt to the ground.
So the regent rebuilt them, using a different name for each guild in each
kingdom and putting his puppets in control of each of the different guilds.
Sometime after rebuilding his guild holdings his bloodline was twisted to
Azari and he gain a lust for conquest. He joined with the Baron of Diemed and
try to take over much of southern anuire. Now the first kingdom he captured
was Endier which he decided to make into his capital, being a long way away
from the other players who at the time were trying to kill him. So much of the
cash based part of his fortune was moved to Endier.
After much warmaking and spellcasting the forces of Diemed and Illien were
defeated and forced to run back to thier kingdoms and hide. However the now
quite upset ruler of Medoere, Roesone, etc decide that they didn't want to
stop the war and continued on a took Illien after which they decided that they
had had enough and went back to trying to make money. When the thief regent
lost Illien he also lost his palace and castle (worth about 20Gb each) as well
as other assets. Now because the regent of Roesone who captured the province
has been busy on holidays in the Illien resort he has yet to get around to
crushing the Ports of call exchange guild holdings or stopping the trade
routes. He doesn't actually seem that intesrested in doing that, mainly due to
the effects on the enconomy of Illien.
So as of last weekends adventure the former ruler of Illien is siting in his
castle in Endier, surrounded by other gold hungry regents, trying to hide the
fact that he is becoming a rather nasty looking Awnshegh. He has 433 Gb in his
treasury, and still for the moment has his guilds and trade routes into
Illien.
Now as for the future of this thief, Adu El-hadid the flayer of minds. Well
Darien Avan already has several unit of soilders based in Endier (keeping an
eye on Ghoere) and it would be quite easy for Avanil to send a few more
soilders wandering into Endier and capture the kingdom, then use the money
stolen from the Endier treasury to buy enough soldiers to pound that
pretender Aeric Boeruine into dust.
I also don't think that the regents surrounding Endier are going to accept
another Awnshegh in their midst, so if anything is going to get the rulers of
Ghoere, Diemed, Avanil, Morhied, etc together is the threat of a very nasty
Awnshegh ruling the third largest city in Anuire. I don't think the people of
Endier are going to be that happy either. Guilder Kailin the former ruler of
Endier would like his kingdom back too, and if his current assasins fail then
he might have to hire some mercenaries.
I suspect that shortly Endier will once again have a new ruler.
- --
Darkstar
hoss@satech.net.au
http://www.satech.net.au/~hoss/index.html
`Now weary traveller rest your head
because just like me you're totally dead.'
A.J. Rimmer Bsc Ssc
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