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  1. #1
    rcantin@oricom.ca (Robin
    Guest

    A thief and his money

    Not that I don't think alignment is important, but I'd like to start a new
    discussion thred here...

    Now, it's been discussed briefly before, but I'd like to come back on the
    matter of the incredible amount of money a thief regent can cash in with
    holding and trade routes.

    I play a thief who happens to be baron (Fhiele Dhoesone in Dhoesone) and
    who's the happy owner of 11 guild holdings (total level 24) and a large, if
    sparsely-populated domain. She makes 26 GBs a turn just with the guilds and
    trade routes, which seems a bit excessive to me. I know that situation
    isn't unique. Domains like Endier, for instance, can become incredibly
    rich.

    So what can a DM do to limit This concentration of money? I'd like to
    propose some means to do that. Some are mine, others have already been
    proposed on this list. I hope to get some pther suggestions back.

    1- Tax those guilds! Except in the cases where the guilder is domain regent
    (obviously), every law holding should be used to tax the guild holdings as
    per table 19 (RB, p. 44). This should decrease revenues of about 20-30%.
    As a consequence of this, regents should not tolerate law holdings owned by
    guilds and should seek to appropriate them.

    2- Guild competition. Profitable guilds make the envy of nearby guilders,
    so the DM should strart a guild war once in a while (this can be a great
    long-term story plot, BTW). Note that a large province can support only 3
    trade routes (RB p. 60), so guilders might want to destroy a concurrent
    holding to make place for one of his own valuable trade route.

    3- Caravan protection. When a trade route passes through a province, the
    local constabulary must insure its protection, so it's only normal the
    guild pays a three-monthly fee for safe passage to everyone that has law
    holdings in each province. This should be negociated when the route is
    established.

    4- Many rulers will want some of the guild profits and make threats. Having
    one's guild reduced systematically isn't good for business!

    Hoping to receive other ways to separate a guilder and his money,

    Robin

  2. #2
    Ian Hoskins
    Guest

    A thief and his money

    On 18-Jan-97, Robin Cantin wrote:
    - ->I play a thief who happens to be baron (Fhiele Dhoesone in Dhoesone) and
    - ->who's the happy owner of 11 guild holdings (total level 24) and a large, if
    - ->sparsely-populated domain. She makes 26 GBs a turn just with the guilds and
    - ->trade routes, which seems a bit excessive to me. I know that situation
    - ->isn't unique. Domains like Endier, for instance, can become incredibly
    - ->rich.

    A thief regent in my campaign (who now rules Endier) makes about 64 GB a turn,
    and hardly ever spends any, so he has about 500 GB in the bank at the moment.

    - ->So what can a DM do to limit This concentration of money? I'd like to
    - ->propose some means to do that. Some are mine, others have already been
    - ->proposed on this list. I hope to get some pther suggestions back.

    - ->1- Tax those guilds! Except in the cases where the guilder is domain regent
    - ->(obviously), every law holding should be used to tax the guild holdings as
    - ->per table 19 (RB, p. 44). This should decrease revenues of about 20-30%.
    - ->As a consequence of this, regents should not tolerate law holdings owned by
    - ->guilds and should seek to appropriate them.

    That is ok for NPC realm, my player generally donates an set amount of money
    to the ruler of Diemed (about 8 GB I think), but the rest of the provinces he
    has guilds in are owned by PC's and they almost never seem to get around to
    claiming money with there law holdings, and I never remind them. Of course
    taxing by law holdings never affects trade routes.

    - ->2- Guild competition. Profitable guilds make the envy of nearby guilders,
    - ->so the DM should strart a guild war once in a while (this can be a great
    - ->long-term story plot, BTW). Note that a large province can support only 3
    - ->trade routes (RB p. 60), so guilders might want to destroy a concurrent
    - ->holding to make place for one of his own valuable trade route.

    This is what I use to keep my player limited in the number of trade route he
    can have. I think he only really has trade routes from Illien (his former
    kingdom) and Endier (his current kingdom) as NPC guilder have taken all of the
    other avalible slots in provinces where he has guild holding (eg imperial
    city, and in Diemed). This generally means that each of the guilder based
    nearby is pulling in nearly as much money as my player.
    Actually a large province can support 6 trade routes if it is a port, 3 sea,
    and 3 land.

    - ->3- Caravan protection. When a trade route passes through a province, the
    - ->local constabulary must insure its protection, so it's only normal the
    - ->guild pays a three-monthly fee for safe passage to everyone that has law
    - ->holdings in each province. This should be negociated when the route is
    - ->established.

    As the regent of any province a trade route passes through can stop it, this
    is probably the best way of slowing a guilder earnings. Unless of course it is
    a sea trade route which travels by sea and cannot be effected this way. In
    this case you need my old friend the Seadrake to make an appearence often,
    takeing a portion of the profits from each trip (not more than a GB or so).

    - ->4- Many rulers will want some of the guild profits and make threats. Having
    - ->one's guild reduced systematically isn't good for business!

    Unless the guilder is ruler of his own province then he is free to do as he
    chooses.

    The best way I have found to seperate a thief from his money is to entice him
    to spend it, which he does quite readily. My thief player spends nearly as
    much as he earns on paying servents and bribing people. (about 10 GB on
    bribes). Paying a wizard to help him out in the province he rules, building
    his new castle, and trying to spy on people. Also every time he goes on an
    adventure he gets plenty of opertunities to spend his money, as in this weeks
    abventure when he spent 20 GB (buying a new ship and outfitting it) and gained
    10GB in treasure.
    - --
    Darkstar

    hoss@satech.net.au
    http://www.satech.net.au/~hoss/index.html

    `Now weary traveller rest your head
    because just like me you're totally dead.'

    A.J. Rimmer Bsc Ssc

  3. #3
    Lee F Bernhard
    Guest

    A thief and his money

    Ian Hoskins wrote:

    > A thief regent in my campaign (who now rules Endier) makes about 64 GB a turn,
    > and hardly ever spends any, so he has about 500 GB in the bank at the moment.

    It seems to me that excessive accumulation of wealth would attract more
    than a little attention; say from surrounding reagents, awnsheghlien,
    rivals,
    etc. Do you consider this money to exist in cash, or in the form of
    cargo,
    bank drafts, and other capital?

    >
    > ->So what can a DM do to limit This concentration of money? I'd like to
    > ->propose some means to do that. Some are mine, others have already been
    > ->proposed on this list. I hope to get some pther suggestions back.

    The greater the wealth, the greater the temptation it poses to others to
    take it away from the wealthy PC reagent. In addition to threats from
    other
    rulers and rulers, the player's own lieutenants may covet being in sole
    control
    of such a fortune. And remember that the guilds are only
    half-legitimate; they
    are made up of some rather rough people who wouldn't be too upset by the
    need to kill someone to make, well, a killing.

    Out of curiousity, how legitimate do people consider their guilds to
    be? Do you
    have some that are merchant houses and others that are networks of
    gamblers,
    highwaymen, beggars, prostitutes, and thieves? Or do you consider each
    guild
    to be made up of elements of both sides of "business"?

    Lee

    - --
    Lee Bernhard
    lfb@fast.net

  4. #4
    Ian Hoskins
    Guest

    A thief and his money

    On 19-Jan-97, Lee F Bernhard wrote:
    - ->> A thief regent in my campaign (who now rules Endier) makes about 64 GB a
    - ->turn,
    - ->> and hardly ever spends any, so he has about 500 GB in the bank at the
    - ->moment.

    - ->It seems to me that excessive accumulation of wealth would attract more
    - ->than a little attention; say from surrounding reagents, awnsheghlien,
    - ->rivals

    Well actually he is a awnsheigh, he has become so monsterous looking that he
    has to wear robes to cover his entire body when ever he leaves his castle. Of
    course some of his neighbours are becoming a little suspicious.
    As for other regents after his money, well the prince of Avinil does have 5
    units of soilders inside his kingdom of Endier (keeping an eye on Ghoere), so
    should Darien Avan ever need a lot of money in a hurry, he already has a
    foothold in Endier ready to strike.

    - ->etc. Do you consider this money to exist in cash, or in the form of
    - ->cargo,
    - ->bank drafts, and other capital?

    A lot of his money is tied up in real estate. Every time he increases his
    guild holdings somewhere then he has to spend money building warehouses etc,
    and these buildings tie up a lot of his money. Of course if anything ever
    happens to these buildings then some of his weath also is lost.
    Also my player owns a large banking empire as part of his guild, so a lot of
    money is tied up in this bank.


    - --
    Darkstar

    hoss@satech.net.au
    http://www.satech.net.au/~hoss/index.html

    `Now weary traveller rest your head
    because just like me you're totally dead.'

    A.J. Rimmer Bsc Ssc

  5. #5
    Jonathan Picklesimer
    Guest

    A thief and his money

    Hey folks, call me a tightwad or whatever, but if you have a Thief regent
    making 63 GB per DT with over 500 GB in saings, something is wrong!

    Perhaps you should also consider the fact that provinces do not have
    limitless resources. Sometimes trade goods run out due to bad weather, a
    change in economic emphasis in the province (such as the discovery of
    gold in local streams), and burnout. Let's face it, even in today's
    society, there are only so many trees you can strip from the land before
    you have to wait a LONG time to harest more trees. The same thing is
    true of work by craftsmen. It takes time to build furniture, weae cloth
    and sew garments. It is physically impossible for an aritsan and his
    apprentice to produce 2 GB worth of furniture in 3 months! It is just
    too much work! Remember that mass production is not something that
    Cerillians know about!

    Even if a PC is ruler of a domain, there may still be other influences
    that can upset him. I know that if I were a king and my neighbor was
    bringing in 63 GB eery 3 months in a province the size of Endier, I would
    get really upset! I would have probably done everything that I could to
    sabotage the other ruler before they gained an exorbiant amount of
    money. Think about the Gorgon, for example. His domain brings in nearly
    100 GB per DT, and it is HUGE! Would any regents in Annuire get upset if
    the Gorgon suddently started accumulating massive amounts of money? You
    bet they would! 500 GB is enough to BUY most if the economy in a LARGE
    area.

    I contend that you can contain theif regents and the money they earn from
    guild and trade holdings. You just have to work harder as a DM to out
    wit, out manuever, out bribe the theif.

    Please don't take this as a personal slam, because it isn't! :) I just
    find it hard to believe that all of the regents around Endier would allow
    something like this to happen!

    Jonathan

  6. #6
    Mike Carscadden
    Guest

    A thief and his money

    Jonathan Picklesimer wrote:
    >
    > Hey folks, call me a tightwad or whatever, but if you have a Thief regent
    > making 63 GB per DT with over 500 GB in saings, something is wrong!
    >
    > Perhaps you should also consider the fact that provinces do not have
    > limitless resources. Sometimes trade goods run out due to bad weather, a
    > change in economic emphasis in the province (such as the discovery of
    > gold in local streams), and burnout. Let's face it, even in today's
    > society, there are only so many trees you can strip from the land before
    > you have to wait a LONG time to harest more trees. The same thing is
    > true of work by craftsmen. It takes time to build furniture, weae cloth
    > and sew garments. It is physically impossible for an aritsan and his
    > apprentice to produce 2 GB worth of furniture in 3 months! It is just
    > too much work! Remember that mass production is not something that
    > Cerillians know about!
    >
    > Even if a PC is ruler of a domain, there may still be other influences
    > that can upset him. I know that if I were a king and my neighbor was
    > bringing in 63 GB eery 3 months in a province the size of Endier, I would
    > get really upset! I would have probably done everything that I could to
    > sabotage the other ruler before they gained an exorbiant amount of
    > money. Think about the Gorgon, for example. His domain brings in nearly
    > 100 GB per DT, and it is HUGE! Would any regents in Annuire get upset if
    > the Gorgon suddently started accumulating massive amounts of money? You
    > bet they would! 500 GB is enough to BUY most if the economy in a LARGE
    > area.
    >
    > I contend that you can contain theif regents and the money they earn from
    > guild and trade holdings. You just have to work harder as a DM to out
    > wit, out manuever, out bribe the theif.
    >
    > Please don't take this as a personal slam, because it isn't! :) I just
    > find it hard to believe that all of the regents around Endier would allow
    > something like this to happen!
    >
    > Jonathan
    > ************************************************** *************************
    > > I agree wholeheartedly. I use the devastation rule in the Talinie
    sourcebook as a rough guide. You can continue to industrialize but if
    you do the source rating drops. Then you piss off the resident mage and
    he comes down with his undead leigon and smites your puny guild right
    off the map. It really does make guilders (thief sounds evil) think
    twice about raping a province of all its resources. Plus if the local
    mage isn't tough enough have the elves come after him or a psychotic
    druid. Either way 500gb is too much. Where did you say he lived
    because that much money would be reason enough to go to war. I'd kill
    him for it and his blood as a bonus.

    The Locust

  7. #7
    Ian Hoskins
    Guest

    A thief and his money

    On 21-Jan-97, Jonathan Picklesimer wrote:
    - ->Hey folks, call me a tightwad or whatever, but if you have a Thief regent
    - ->making 63 GB per DT with over 500 GB in saings, something is wrong!

    By the way that is not a profit of 63 GB / turn. He has to spend about 45 GB
    maintaining his empire so only a profit of about 18 GB, less expenses for
    anything occuring during the domain turn. Also I have been running this
    campaign every weekend since a couple of weeks after birthright came out. With
    an average of about 1 & 1/2 DT / week the PCs have had a lot of time to save
    up some money.
    The thief regent is the only one with a lot of money too, the other PC regents
    have, 5 GB (Roesone) and 23 GB (Medoere).

    - ->Perhaps you should also consider the fact that provinces do not have
    - ->limitless resources. Sometimes trade goods run out due to bad weather, a
    - ->change in economic emphasis in the province (such as the discovery of
    - ->gold in local streams), and burnout. Let's face it, even in today's
    - ->society, there are only so many trees you can strip from the land before
    - ->you have to wait a LONG time to harest more trees. The same thing is
    - ->true of work by craftsmen. It takes time to build furniture, weae cloth
    - ->and sew garments. It is physically impossible for an aritsan and his
    - ->apprentice to produce 2 GB worth of furniture in 3 months! It is just
    - ->too much work! Remember that mass production is not something that
    - ->Cerillians know about!
    - ->Even if a PC is ruler of a domain, there may still be other influences
    - ->that can upset him. I know that if I were a king and my neighbor was
    - ->bringing in 63 GB eery 3 months in a province the size of Endier, I would
    - ->get really upset! I would have probably done everything that I could to
    - ->sabotage the other ruler before they gained an exorbiant amount of
    - ->money. Think about the Gorgon, for example. His domain brings in nearly
    - ->100 GB per DT, and it is HUGE! Would any regents in Annuire get upset if
    - ->the Gorgon suddently started accumulating massive amounts of money? You
    - ->bet they would! 500 GB is enough to BUY most if the economy in a LARGE
    - ->area.
    - ->I contend that you can contain theif regents and the money they earn from
    - ->guild and trade holdings. You just have to work harder as a DM to out
    - ->wit, out manuever, out bribe the theif.

    Ok now to answer all of the above points.
    To start with the player has not always been in control of Endier, he captured
    it about 4 years ago. To start with he was without a realm based in Illien.
    Now without a realm thieves can make a lot of money with trade routes etc. Now
    at the time with other players as regents in Roesone and Medoere they never
    seemed to want to tax the thief, athough they had built up their law holding
    to max by now.
    They also allowed the thief to build an army based in his guild holdings using
    his fortune of about 150 GB (remember ports of call exchange begins with 45
    Gb). With this army he captured Illen from its then ruler and moved his
    operation there.

    Now based in Illen he started building up places and armies so that for most
    of the next few years of game time his fortune rose by only a small amount to
    about 200 Gb. Also so at this time he started creating trade routes until the
    guild had 5 trade routes based in Illen, 2 land and 3 sea, and two trade
    routes in other provinces.
    Now you may think bringing in large amount of money and saving it up like the
    player in my campaign is impossible, but remember that Illen has a population
    of over 70,000 people, the second largest city in Anuire. Now how much income
    do you think each person in Illien might make on average, 1gp, 2gp, or more.
    Now if each person in Illen earns say 2 gp a turn then every year they are
    earning about 30 000 gp for the whole kingdom. Now the regent at the time had
    only light taxes at the time so take of about 10 000 gp as taxes. Now that
    leaves the kingdom about 20 000 gp of 10 Gb to spend or save each turn. Now
    seeing as my player controls most of the economy in Illien (Level 7 guild
    holding) that means that if they are going to spend money then they are going
    to spend money in the guilds shops, and if they are going to bank money then
    they are going to bank it in the cities banks, also controlled by the regent.
    So a fair proportion of of the remaining 10 Gb will go back to the regent in
    the form of earnings from his guild holdings.
    So each domain turn he is probably bringing in about 12-15 Gb from Illien
    alone in the form of taxes and guild sales. Also Illien is home to a large
    resort town on its south eastern border, and that must bring in some money
    from nobles visiting for the rest etc.
    Now Illien is also a trade city so not all of the good brought into Illien by
    the regents ships (total about 25 Gb worth) are used in Illien, most will go
    onto other locations, taken north into Anuire or by ship onto other kingdoms.
    Now transfering these goods from Illien onward is not necessarily done by the
    the player. Other guilds may have trade routes to provinces where Ports of
    call exchange is based bringing in their goods and taking out spices etc. It
    is a lot easier for a guild to buy goods off someone in Anuire that send their
    own ships to get the goods.
    So after all of this is added up the income at the time was about 57 Gb with
    about 40 Gb in expenses.

    Now to continue the story of the Thief regent. After taking Illien (this was
    early in the campaign) he built up his guilds based in Illien and created many
    trade routes. Thing went along nicely with his guilds gaining holdings in many
    provinces in Diemed, Roesone, Medoere, and Ghoere. Until he was the most
    powerful guilder in all of Anuire. Then he went a little mad and started
    attacking other players when ever he saw them. After killing one (stabbed
    through heart while sleeping) the other players decided that maybe having this
    regent in their kingdoms wasn't a good idea after all so several of his guild
    holdings in Roesone and Medoere were burnt to the ground.
    So the regent rebuilt them, using a different name for each guild in each
    kingdom and putting his puppets in control of each of the different guilds.
    Sometime after rebuilding his guild holdings his bloodline was twisted to
    Azari and he gain a lust for conquest. He joined with the Baron of Diemed and
    try to take over much of southern anuire. Now the first kingdom he captured
    was Endier which he decided to make into his capital, being a long way away
    from the other players who at the time were trying to kill him. So much of the
    cash based part of his fortune was moved to Endier.
    After much warmaking and spellcasting the forces of Diemed and Illien were
    defeated and forced to run back to thier kingdoms and hide. However the now
    quite upset ruler of Medoere, Roesone, etc decide that they didn't want to
    stop the war and continued on a took Illien after which they decided that they
    had had enough and went back to trying to make money. When the thief regent
    lost Illien he also lost his palace and castle (worth about 20Gb each) as well
    as other assets. Now because the regent of Roesone who captured the province
    has been busy on holidays in the Illien resort he has yet to get around to
    crushing the Ports of call exchange guild holdings or stopping the trade
    routes. He doesn't actually seem that intesrested in doing that, mainly due to
    the effects on the enconomy of Illien.

    So as of last weekends adventure the former ruler of Illien is siting in his
    castle in Endier, surrounded by other gold hungry regents, trying to hide the
    fact that he is becoming a rather nasty looking Awnshegh. He has 433 Gb in his
    treasury, and still for the moment has his guilds and trade routes into
    Illien.
    Now as for the future of this thief, Adu El-hadid the flayer of minds. Well
    Darien Avan already has several unit of soilders based in Endier (keeping an
    eye on Ghoere) and it would be quite easy for Avanil to send a few more
    soilders wandering into Endier and capture the kingdom, then use the money
    stolen from the Endier treasury to buy enough soldiers to pound that
    pretender Aeric Boeruine into dust.
    I also don't think that the regents surrounding Endier are going to accept
    another Awnshegh in their midst, so if anything is going to get the rulers of
    Ghoere, Diemed, Avanil, Morhied, etc together is the threat of a very nasty
    Awnshegh ruling the third largest city in Anuire. I don't think the people of
    Endier are going to be that happy either. Guilder Kailin the former ruler of
    Endier would like his kingdom back too, and if his current assasins fail then
    he might have to hire some mercenaries.
    I suspect that shortly Endier will once again have a new ruler.


    - --
    Darkstar

    hoss@satech.net.au
    http://www.satech.net.au/~hoss/index.html

    `Now weary traveller rest your head
    because just like me you're totally dead.'

    A.J. Rimmer Bsc Ssc

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