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Thread: Paladins

  1. #1
    Matthew M. Colville
    Guest

    Paladins

    Franz Berthiller wrote:
    > In my eyes a paladin must(!) be good (why should a LN character have a
    > Protection from Good aura about him, when he needs a Protection from
    > Good as much; or why should he have the power to turn undead, when he
    > could use them in his plots; Cure Disease, Lay on Hands, etc.).

    First of all, A Paladin is just a warrior of the church. And all
    Churches *could* have warriors. Just because they're not LG doesn't
    mean they *can't* have a military arm.
    Secondly, why should all Paladins have Protection from Good? Again, I
    refer you to Dragon Magazine Issue 109. Lots of different paladins, one
    for every alignment, each with different powers and with different xp
    charts.

    -Matthew

    -

  2. #2
    Franz Berthiller
    Guest

    Paladins

    Hi, there!

    In the last days there were a few questions about paladins.

    1) Gaining Regency:
    I totally agree with Jaanus and Robin, when they say that paladins
    should gain the regency points stated in the rulebook.
    Maybe I am a bit prejudiced, because my favourite character class to
    play are paladins, but I think that for the people of a domain a paladin
    is the perfect ruler. He is a political leader as well as a spiritual
    one and always concerned about the fate of his people.

    2) Non-LG-paladins:

    In the BR supplements I found the following paladins:

    Assan ibn Daouta - MKh P10 LG - Ruler of Elinie (Ruins of Empire, p44)
    Teodor Profiev - MV P8 LG (Ruins of Empire, p74)
    Kalilah bint Daouda - FKh P5 LN (Ruins of Empire, p77)
    Ketifah min Tomad - FKh P7 LG (Cities of the sun, p65)
    Gerad ibn Farid el-Arrasi - MKh P7 LG (Cities of the sun, p14;
    Ariya domain sourcebook)
    Prince al-Rammal - UndeadMKh LG (The sword of Roele, p59)
    Knight of the blemished shield - MAn P6 LG (Legend o.t. Hero-Kings, p32)

    Sure I forgot a few other...
    All but Kalilah, even the undead one, are LG in alignment.
    She (LN) and paladins of Cuira=E9cen (CG) proofs that there is room for
    non-LG-paladins. I am not very happy about that.

    In my eyes a paladin must(!) be good (why should a LN character have a
    Protection from Good aura about him, when he needs a Protection from
    Good as much; or why should he have the power to turn undead, when he
    could use them in his plots; Cure Disease, Lay on Hands, etc.).

    Even more a paladin must be lawful, I just don=B4t believe that a chaotic
    character would give his life for his cause, or just for saving that
    little young girl from the hands of an ogre, when there is no other
    reward than honor and fame (maybe for a dead hero).

    Every DM have to decide himself, if non-LG-paladins fits in his
    campaign. In my world paladins must be LG.

    When you let your PCs create a e.g. CG paladin of Cuira=E9cen why not cal=
    l
    them "Holy Warriors" or "Specialty Priests" instead of paladins?
    These paladins fight for the good, with all means possible.
    But only because he is chaotic, he should not can do anything he wish.
    He should also have a code of honor, a code of ethics, or else and he
    can still loose his abilities when doing something wrong.

    Robin said, that it may be difficult for a paladin when not having the
    some alignment then his god. In the Forgotten Realms campaign setting I
    once played a LG specialty priest of Tempus (Lord of Battle, CN) and it
    worked well. I guess a god of war has many followers, good as well as
    evil ones.

    So why don=B4t we forget non-LG-paladins (alltough possible in the
    rulebook) and demand from our players that the have to be LG when
    playing a paladin.
    I can=B4t think of anything more heroic and honorful than a LG paladin
    trying everything he can to spread his faith, being an example to others
    and hold on his beliefs, even in the worst situation.
    And thats what BR should be - heroic.

    Bye, Franz

  3. #3
    Franz Berthiller
    Guest

    Paladins

    Hi, there!

    Matthew M. Colville wrote:

    > First of all, A Paladin is just a warrior of the church. And all
    > Churches *could* have warriors. Just because they're not LG doesn't
    > mean they *can't* have a military arm.
    > Secondly, why should all Paladins have Protection from Good? Again, I
    > refer you to Dragon Magazine Issue 109. Lots of different paladins, > =
    one for every alignment, each with different powers and with different > =
    xp charts.
    > -Matthe=
    w

    Thanks Matthew, I know what you mean.
    But in my phantasy paladins are even more than just warriors of a
    church. Sure they work hand in hand, but both parts can also get along
    without the other one.
    I guess we are not argueing about paladins, but about kits.
    Any DM, who wants, should allow such kits, either taken from the Dragon
    Magazin or the Complete Book of Paladins (or anywhere else).

    All I want say, is that it is dangerous, if the DM just ignores the
    alignment restrictions and don=B4t change anything else on the character.
    I fear that this can spoil the game.

    For example two characters in a party play Paladin-characters, one the
    LG-guy we all know and the other a modified CG-Paladin.
    I believe it could get frustrating for the LG player, when he sees how
    difficult it is for him to keep up his high standards, while the other
    one is just messing around (in the eyes of the LG-guy) without being
    penalized by his god, the DM, or anyone else.

    I really love the play a Paladin. And in my campaign just the most
    unusual, devotest, bold, fearless and honarable personalities can be
    paladins. As long as the character is LG, I believe that he can never
    loose his goal and maintain his virtues all the time.
    When non-LG-paladins can do this also, I have absolutely no problem with
    them, even when I would not call them paladins but "Holy Warriors",
    "Defenders of the Faith", "Chevaliers" or something like that just to
    make a difference for my self.

    I hope you got my point.

    Farewell, Franz

  4. #4
    Bill Legate a.k.a. Tande
    Guest

    Paladins

    Franz wrote:

    In my eyes a paladin must(!) be good (why should a LN character have a
    Protection from Good aura about him, when he needs a Protection from
    Good as much; or why should he have the power to turn undead, when he
    could use them in his plots; Cure Disease, Lay on Hands, etc.).

    Even more a paladin must be lawful, I just don┬┤t believe that a chaotic
    character would give his life for his cause, or just for saving that
    little young girl from the hands of an ogre, when there is no other
    reward than honor and fame (maybe for a dead hero).

    Every DM have to decide himself, if non-LG-paladins fits in his
    campaign. In my world paladins must be LG.

    When you let your PCs create a e.g. CG paladin of Cuira├ęcen why not call
    them "Holy Warriors" or "Specialty Priests" instead of paladins?
    These paladins fight for the good, with all means possible.
    But only because he is chaotic, he should not can do anything he wish.
    He should also have a code of honor, a code of ethics, or else and he
    can still loose his abilities when doing something wrong.

    Robin said, that it may be difficult for a paladin when not having the
    some alignment then his god. In the Forgotten Realms campaign setting I
    once played a LG specialty priest of Tempus (Lord of Battle, CN) and it
    worked well. I guess a god of war has many followers, good as well as
    evil ones.

    So why don┬┤t we forget non-LG-paladins (alltough possible in the
    rulebook) and demand from our players that the have to be LG when
    playing a paladin.
    I can┬┤t think of anything more heroic and honorful than a LG paladin
    trying everything he can to spread his faith, being an example to others
    and hold on his beliefs, even in the worst situation.
    And thats what BR should be - heroic.



    Here, Here!!

  5. #5
    Franz Berthiller
    Guest

    Paladins

    Hi, there!

    > From: "Matthew M. Colville"
    >=20
    > Secondly, why *must* alternate Paladins just be duplicates of t=
    he
    > PHB Paladin without the alignment restriction? A CG Paladin could have=
    a
    > whole different set of restrictions and abilities.

    You=B4re right.

    > =20
    > B: Why does the
    > LG Paladin *have* to look at the CG Paladin, who has his own restrictio=
    ns
    > which *could be* just as restrictive as the LG Paladin's, and think he'=
    s
    > 'messing around?" Why can't they respect each other? I referr you to =
    the
    > Diamond Throne series by David Eddings which is, in essence, an entire
    > series about a Party of Paladins all from different churches and differ=
    ent
    > alignments who *like* each other.
    > The problems you're describing could be true of anyone with any
    > conviction in a party. If you *decide* to play a character that way, f=
    ine,
    > but you can't argue it's *innate.*

    Thanx for the book tip. I hope I can find the time to read it.
    I referr you to Origin=B4s Ultima4 "The Quest of the Avatar". I know its =
    a
    bit old, but definetly the best computer game I ever played. The quest
    is to find the truth in life, to become an avatar and be a shinning
    example to others.
    In the game you have to find fulfillment in the 8 virtues which are
    Valor, Honesty, Humilty, Honor, Sacrifice, Spirituallity, Compassion and
    Justice.

    > > As long as the character is LG, I believe that he can never
    > >loose his goal and maintain his virtues all the time.
    >=20
    > Whoah, you mean a LG character can't stray from his alignment? =
    I
    > know you don't mean that, so I'm confused. What Virtue is might differ
    > from culture to culture, alignment to alignment. Therefore it could al=
    so
    > differ from Paladin to Paladin.

    Again you=B4re right.=20
    I guess that not all but a lot of faiths could have fighters for their
    cause.
    But they are not paladins.=20

    A paladin is the embodyment of godness, of light and of law in the
    world.=20

    Sure there can be fighters for other causes, maybe even for evil,
    darkness and chaos. It is important for me to make a change between
    these guys.

    It is not easy to be a paladin. A LG one never gains wealth, contribute
    his belongings (even some of his magical) to the poor or to his church,
    has a limited number of magical items and so on. While a chaotic
    character is selfish (consult the player handbook about this) he would
    never do so. For all the rewards and boni a paladin has, there has to be
    restrictions, but I just can=B4t think of any restrictions a neutral are
    chaotic character can have.
    By the way, in my imagination there is room for a LG and a CE paladin
    (or anti-paladin) but I just can=B4t imagine a true neutral one.
    I don=B4t have the issue of the Dragon Magazine you mentioned, and I can=B4=
    t
    get it. Please could you describe me how the writer of this article
    think of a true neutral paladin of, lets say, a merchant or nature
    entity.

    > >I guess we are not argueing about paladins, but about kits.
    >=20
    > Ick! I *hate* 'Kits.' Kits are just role-playing ideas for pe=
    ople
    > with little imagination.=20

    True, I also don=B4t like kits.

    A final word. In my eyes paladins have to be extreme in all their views.
    They can=B4t step from their choosen path. A chaotic character (not
    important if he his good or evil intentions) is like a leaf in the wind,
    turning around every time the circumstances require it. And when this
    people don=B4t have an overwhelming strong motivation (like the hate to
    all living, all mankind, or anything else like a CE character) there
    will be allways second thoughts.
    With all the love to their gods, chaotic characters are selfish and thus
    disqualifying them as paladins.
    I also guess our view of alignment is somewhat different.

    In exciting anticipation of your responses, especially from you Matthew,
    Yours Franz

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