View Poll Results: Should Chap 1 be sanctioned?

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  • 1. Yes

    20 76.92%
  • 2. No

    6 23.08%
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  1. #21
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    Originally posted by Mark_Aurel@Feb 7 2005, 04:22 AM
    Rather, the class is a cleric/fighter mixup that represents a champion of the order; since Nesirie is less militant, her paladins play more of the crusading healer than the crusading warrior, if you catch my drift. And a mount is not very suitable (dolphin, anyone?)...
    No, a mount is not very suitable. Which paladins of Nesirie didn't get in 2e, and don't get here. It is easy to replace the mount with something else -- some abilities, a better spell selection, etc.
    Why not use a variant of the solution for Moradin Paladins? Give Nesirie Paladins an appropriate sized water elemental as a companion?
    "It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion -- and usually easier."

    - R. A. Heinlien, from The Collected works of Lazarus Long

  2. #22
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    Angelbialaska, I would fully agree with you if it was humanly possilbe. Unfortunately few of us have the neccesary lifespans to finish this project in the way you want. The BRCS in the present form has taken around 2 years to revise, and we have finished like 3 chapters.

    Besides lacking enough committed invididuals to each take on a chapter a piece, we lack enough of a stable community to possibly work on it as a body. So what you have to consider is that we could work on writing the entire thing, playtest, the fix errata. But unfortunatly by the time we came to reworking the rules 3/4 of the community would have left being replaced by others who would have a different opinion on the matter and want re-edit to fit their house rules. This would most likely continue on forever.

    This is what is essentialy happening with the paladins issue. Whether I agree with the opinions or not, half the people writing them weren't actively online when we wrote and voted on paladins. This doesn't make the opinions invalid or bad, but if we go through the entire chapter again, by the time we are done, their will be new people seeking to alter another paladin.

    Which of course doesn't mean that for those of us that are still around once the BRCS has been revised, we can go back and do some errata on the paladins should playtesting determine that you are correct.
    Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

  3. #23
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    On your note: these paladin classes were done by me and Irdeggman, whom I have to thank from the bottom of my heart for his patience, and we are across the globe from each other! Do you know how much time it took to finish THIS only?

    If I thought myself capable enough to write a whole chapter by myself, I would gladly do it; as things stand right now, I have university issues, almost no play-testing power (most of the evaluation I ever do uses the "How does it look?" method, in which I have become more competent the last couple of years EXACTLY because of this fact), and a couple of friends I really have to slap for really offering next to no help!!

    I could work on a chapter regarding blood abilities or, even better, additional spells, or parts of the Shadow World, but these are still things that need more than one person to work on and a steady group; as things stand, the greatest difficulty we have is the dispersity of the community and the ego each one of us has in voicing his opinion without contributing; I feel ashamed for not being able to offer more, damn it!!

    If you understand what I mean, cut us some slack, realise that it is better to put up errata LATER ON than never finish this, and be done with it, or at least be around when we need you and offer some help instead of popping up and saying: "This does not work."

    For those of you who did not even read this, which is nearly obvious, these are the variant paladin classes, not the default, as they were in 2e. In other words, you might as well not use some in your campaign without really caring; it was the voice of the people who made things this way, not only ours.

  4. #24
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    If you don't want any feedback, then don't ask;-)

    For myself I'm reasonably pleased with the product, even though there are a couple of bad things thrown in with the good.

    However, the Nesirie paladin variant really DO suck, for all the reasons Mark Aurel listed above. While it has a certain theme, the class is more or less unplayable unless you are a real macschist. It stands out as the most glaring "mistake" IMO and should be fixed ASAP. Just my 50 øre.

    B
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

  5. #25
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    While the Paladin is a holy warrior, that is short changing the class because otherwise a Fighter/Cleric (and many PrCs) would accomplish that role and better. The Paladin class was originally designed to represent the chivalry and the ideals espoused in the works of Chrétien de Troyes and others that wrote the Arthurian legends, of Charles Lemagne, etc.

  6. #26
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Green Knight@Feb 7 2005, 12:16 PM
    If you don't want any feedback, then don't ask;-)

    For myself I'm reasonably pleased with the product, even though there are a couple of bad things thrown in with the good.

    However, the Nesirie paladin variant really DO suck, for all the reasons Mark Aurel listed above. While it has a certain theme, the class is more or less unplayable unless you are a real macschist. It stands out as the most glaring "mistake" IMO and should be fixed ASAP. Just my 50 øre.

    B
    My biggest problem is that some people now saying to "change this variant" were around for the discussion when it was introduced. There was plenty of time to "fix" it then, but people generally said it was fine - or at the worst had nothing to say about it even when it was voted on.
    Duane Eggert

  7. #27
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    A few more edits to consider:

    Under elven traits, it is written: "Cerilian Elves receive Marital Weapon Proficiency with longsword, shortbow, and longbow." (page 6 on the .doc)

    Now I didn't know cerilian elves were that kinky.



    Within the restricted regional feats section, I disagree with making spirited charge anuirean only because both the Khinasi and vos do have significant traditions for riding. The same applies for Mounted Archery which I think should also be expanded to include the Vos.

  8. #28
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by The incredible, edible Phil@Feb 7 2005, 02:04 PM
    A few more edits to consider:

    Under elven traits, it is written: "Cerilian Elves receive Marital Weapon Proficiency with longsword, shortbow, and longbow." (page 6 on the .doc)

    Now I didn't know cerilian elves were that kinky.

    Well they are prone to stay within the woods for extended periods of time.
    Good catch.
    Duane Eggert

  9. #29
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    My biggest problem is that some people now saying to "change this variant" were around for the discussion when it was introduced. There was plenty of time to "fix" it then, but people generally said it was fine - or at the worst had nothing to say about it even when it was voted on.
    I hear that loud and clear.

    Having been the main voice urging a revamp of the class at that time (and I remember hashing out many arguments similar to Mark Aurel's, tho not so techinically laid out as only he can do), I don't think I ever said it was OK. My recollection of things says that the issue was heatedly discussed by a few of us, but most folks didn't care that much about paladins of Neserie anyways, and so my voice was largely unsupported when it mattered. Jan, I wish you had been around then, buddy, your eye for mechanics and fine-tuning power balance would have been very helpful.

    As things went, because I couldn't "rally a consensus" against the variant Paladin of Neserie, and the authors believed it was balanced and fine as it stood, it was left unchanged and piggybacked its way through the sanctioning vote. I felt then that the issue was sort-of steamrolled under the pressure to get things sanctioned and keep the project moving. Which is understandable, but frustrating at times: it's too easy to simply ignore issues where the discussion doesn't form a clear majority opinion in opposition to a presented idea. This problem has been improving lately (such as with the Noble, where people have now voiced agreement or disagreement with concrete things proposed), but I believe the PoN issue coming up here is indicative of that problem in the past. Sometimes counting votes is no replacement for a strong, rational argument.


    One possibility to patch this issue a bit is to create a paladin/cleric prestige class of Neserie for the Atlas project, one that capitalizes on the default paladin/cleric of Neserie free multiclassing rule. A high BAB, continued clerical spell progression, d8 HD, high Fort saves, and continued leveling of the paladin's smite evil and lay on hands ability could work pretty well IMO. Sort of a divine parallel to the Eldritch Knight.

    The Practiced Spellcaster feat from Complete Divine/Arcane is also an excellent way for a cleric/paladin to improve their clerical caster levels lost to paladin levels. At first I thought this feat was way too powerful, but in fact I've found it a great way for multiclass spellcasters to help restore their competitive edge against challenging opponents. IMC for instance there are 3 multiclas spellcasters: a cleric/ war priest of Haelyn, a cleric/wizard/mystic theurge of Ruornil, and a rogue/wizard/divine trickster. All 3 of these characters have suffered immensely in terms of competitve power throughout the campaign, and often this was due to their inferiority against dedicated spellcasters. As soon as the Practiced Spellcaster feat became available, all 3 characters wanted to take it - pointing to the obvious disadvantage of being a lower-level caster (dispelling and spell resistance being some major problem points for them). The feat is really a "fix" for multiclass spellcasters to get back in the action at the proper CR, and so far in my campaign it has worked quite well.

    Finally, a revamped variant (that wouldn't be too hard to change to from the existing one) of the Paladin of Neserie could restore her high BAB and still be pretty balanced IMO: a d8 HD and no special mount are weaker than a normal paladin, but increased spellcasting power (like the 6-level spread presented) could compensate for this, especially if some of them matched the cleric's versions: like Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might, and the paladin's Bless Weapon, Align Weapon, and Holy Sword spells were included.
    The current list may be 6 levels, but it is a VERY small spell selection, and very few spells per day.

    Next, drop the water-based special abilities as class features and make them available on her spell list instead (2nd: Water Breathing, 3rd: Water Walk, 4th: Freedom of Movement).

    So, beef up the spell lists with some more combat options, restore the high BAB, drop Water Affinity and Freedom of Movement as class abilities, and this should restore the PoN's status as a competent holy warrior and [combat] champion of her goddess.

    Osprey

  10. #30
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    As I said, I can do some changes, and I am ready for some of them; what I could not tolerate was the way things were told...

    I still believe that the paladins of Nesirie are not that militant; note that militant refers to how militaristic the class is, not how combat-capable it is. I don't think the class stinks that much, but I will give you that I cannot test what I have in mind as adequately as I want... In any case, I hope that some of the feats I have designed (one of which is most suitable for Nesirie) will make it to the BRCS or Atlas.

    Furthermore, I believe that, should Irdeggman back out on this, we COULD work the class a little, but any changes will have to wait for now; both Aurel and Osprey have proven to be good listeners and can converse very well, it's just that you have to make sure that the project goes on like we all have to do. No more lag allowed.

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