Death

[Undertaker]

At 09:22 PM 1/9/97 +0200, Jaanus Lillenberg(jaanusl@postimees.ee)wrote:
>

>Thats how I have ruled it. To die is to die..
>Remember Gorgon slayed Michael Roele... If the raising a person
>were easy to get to any baron then that would have been a *nothing*
>for an emperor to get a resurrection.
>
>There are also at least 3 or perhaps 4 persons able to cast wish
>in the world of Cerilia. That what I read out from the books.
>(1: High Queen of elves of Lluabraight; 2. Chancellor or Royal College
>in Anuire; 3. Magian 4.Aglondiers line of wizards if they get high level
>enough).
>
>Althought Magian wasnt presented in Cerilia at that time yet, High
>Queen didnt rule yet and Aglondiers line perhaps was in the grow still,
>the College could have the spell ready for use.
>
>They also could have been paid with whatever I think... for to get
>emperor back to the life.
>

This discussion came up during my live game last night, and all of my
Players(who have read all the BR novels)said the same thing. They all
thought that it was not possible to be raised, or ressurected, on Cerilia.
Each pointed out the same fact that Jaanus did, if you can be brought back,
why hasen't someone returned Micheal yet. I must say this surprised me.
Until our posts over the past several days, I had not given the subject any
thought. Of course death in my campaigns has always been hard to reverse,
and I just assumed that it would be the same here. Now I'm starting to lean
toward making death a permanent condition. Now this may be a little harsh,
but even my Players think that part of BR is history, and tragedy. They feel
that in order to help mantain this when someone dies they should die
forever. My wife pointed out that at least Blooded characters should be
permanetly removed if they die. Once dead their soul, and BL, would transend
beyond the realms of the average dead. She envisioned a type of Valhalla,
where Blooded individuals joined in an eternity of sitting by their god's
right hand, awaiting the chance to do his bidding. A bit glamourous I must
admit, but it gives one thought. Should prehaps death be permanent on Cerilia?

Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net
RL Homepage: http://www.metrolink.net/~veleda/sepulcher.html

[Ian Hoskins]

On 10-Jan-97, Undertaker wrote:

- ->This discussion came up during my live game last night, and all of my
- ->Players(who have read all the BR novels)said the same thing. They all
- ->thought that it was not possible to be raised, or ressurected, on Cerilia.
- ->Each pointed out the same fact that Jaanus did, if you can be brought back,
- ->why hasen't someone returned Micheal yet. I must say this surprised me.
- ->Until our posts over the past several days, I had not given the subject any
- ->thought. Of course death in my campaigns has always been hard to reverse,
- ->and I just assumed that it would be the same here. Now I'm starting to lean
- ->toward making death a permanent condition. Now this may be a little harsh,
- ->but even my Players think that part of BR is history, and tragedy. They feel
- ->that in order to help mantain this when someone dies they should die
- ->forever. My wife pointed out that at least Blooded characters should be
- ->permanetly removed if they die. Once dead their soul, and BL, would transend
- ->beyond the realms of the average dead. She envisioned a type of Valhalla,
- ->where Blooded individuals joined in an eternity of sitting by their god's
- ->right hand, awaiting the chance to do his bidding. A bit glamourous I must
- ->admit, but it gives one thought. Should prehaps death be permanent on
Cerilia?

Well I for one am running my campaign without resurrection/raise dead for
blooded character for two reasons.

1) It gives non blooded character something the blooded character have. I have
had two blooded PCs die, but no non blooded yet. My players agree with this
ruling too.

2) I think that a blooded characters tie to the land is so great that when
he/she dies they become part of the land itself and their bloodline has been
passed to their heir so they can't return from death via a ressurect etc.

Oh one other reason, no player in my campaign can cast raise dead yet, and
they have put all of the local high level priest off side so they will get no
help from them.
- --
Darkstar

hoss@satech.net.au
http://www.satech.net.au/~hoss/index.html

`Now weary traveller rest your head
because just like me you're totally dead.'

A.J. Rimmer Bsc Ssc

[Jaanus Lillenberg]

Hello stuff :)

>
> >Thats how I have ruled it. To die is to die..
> >Remember Gorgon slayed Michael Roele... If the raising a person
> >were easy to get to any baron then that would have been a *nothing*
> >for an emperor to get a resurrection.
> >
> >There are also at least 3 or perhaps 4 persons able to cast wish
> >in the world of Cerilia. That what I read out from the books.
> >(1: High Queen of elves of Lluabraight; 2. Chancellor or Royal College
> >in Anuire; 3. Magian 4.Aglondiers line of wizards if they get high level
> >enough).
> >
> >Althought Magian wasnt presented in Cerilia at that time yet, High
> >Queen didnt rule yet and Aglondiers line perhaps was in the grow still,
> >the College could have the spell ready for use.
> >
> >They also could have been paid with whatever I think... for to get
> >emperor back to the life.
> >
>
> This discussion came up during my live game last night, and all of my
> Players(who have read all the BR novels)said the same thing. They all
> thought that it was not possible to be raised, or ressurected, on Cerilia.
> Each pointed out the same fact that Jaanus did, if you can be brought back,
> why hasen't someone returned Micheal yet. I must say this surprised me.
> Until our posts over the past several days, I had not given the subject any
> thought. Of course death in my campaigns has always been hard to reverse,
> and I just assumed that it would be the same here. Now I'm starting to lean
> toward making death a permanent condition. Now this may be a little harsh,
> but even my Players think that part of BR is history, and tragedy. They feel
> that in order to help mantain this when someone dies they should die
> forever. My wife pointed out that at least Blooded characters should be
> permanetly removed if they die. Once dead their soul, and BL, would transend
> beyond the realms of the average dead. She envisioned a type of Valhalla,
> where Blooded individuals joined in an eternity of sitting by their god's
> right hand, awaiting the chance to do his bidding. A bit glamourous I must
> admit, but it gives one thought. Should prehaps death be permanent on Cerilia?
>
WOWOW WOW WOW !! You make me comig on marvelous ideas..

I will consider it seriously.. Yes a blooded person, if dead,
will never return (only in spectral form) but that happens IF
the character died a violent unfair death. It wouldnt go with
if the person died in the battle.. that one I consider the
fameful death for a scion.
But if it were tricked/trapped/poisoned/assasinated etc..

In that case the scion dies.. for every living thing they REALLY look dead
and they are for any mortal.
BUT!!!!!
now here comes the idea. They (themselves) will just feel something
like a heavy blow (must think about details) and just open their
eyes again..

.. in the World of the Light (or whatwever I will call it)
that is the Cerilian Valhalla. And the players have the ability
to play further (I will consider it if all my players die (all are
blooded)).
That would be real fun :)

The world of the light would be the bright counterpart of cerilia
JUST as the shadow world is for the dark.

And there the heroes live just as if in the ordinary world. But
they live there like normal heroes (no bloodlines).
And if they die.. they will be carried to The Beds where they use to
sleep in. And next morning they wake up reted and healthy. :))

What do you say ??

Greetings from
Jaanus Lillenberg

- ---
jaanusl@postimees.ee

[Undertaker]

At 06:07 PM 1/10/97 +0200, Jaanus Lillenberg(jaanusl@postimees.ee)wrote:
>
>> This discussion came up during my live game last night, and all of my
>> Players(who have read all the BR novels)said the same thing. They all
>> thought that it was not possible to be raised, or ressurected, on Cerilia.
>> Each pointed out the same fact that Jaanus did, if you can be brought back,
>> why hasen't someone returned Micheal yet. I must say this surprised me.
>> Until our posts over the past several days, I had not given the subject any
>> thought. Of course death in my campaigns has always been hard to reverse,
>> and I just assumed that it would be the same here. Now I'm starting to lean
>> toward making death a permanent condition. Now this may be a little harsh,
>> but even my Players think that part of BR is history, and tragedy. They feel
>> that in order to help mantain this when someone dies they should die
>> forever. My wife pointed out that at least Blooded characters should be
>> permanetly removed if they die. Once dead their soul, and BL, would transend
>> beyond the realms of the average dead. She envisioned a type of Valhalla,
>> where Blooded individuals joined in an eternity of sitting by their god's
>> right hand, awaiting the chance to do his bidding. A bit glamourous I must
>> admit, but it gives one thought. Should prehaps death be permanent on
Cerilia?
>>
>
>WOWOW WOW WOW !! You make me comig on marvelous ideas..
>

Glad to be of inspiration. After reading another post on this subject I've
been thinking about this issue even harder, and came to a few conclusions,
for my campaign. In this other post(I'm sorry it got trashed by mistake)the
point was made that in his campaign only unblooded characters could return
from the dead. I agree with this, but want to take it a step further.
Non-blooded individuals can only be Reincarnated, with a few changes. First,
it will take 1d4 days for everyday the character is dead, until the new
incarnation appears. The DM should note how long it takes for the new form
to appear, including any time spent just dead. The longer it takes, the
further the new character should be from the old. For example a Reincarnated
Human, would probably not return as a Human, unless it only took 1 day to
return. After that his race, class, ablities, alignment, and even
personality should begin to wander in new paths. Adjudicating Reincarnation
spells has never been easy, but in BR its even more imortant to monitor its
use. Because again if it were in anyway convenient, great figures of
history(at least the unBlooded ones)would ensure that when their time came
such a spell would be used on them. Of course if you restrict the spell to
only Priests, that will make it more difficult to use. A god must be willing
to grant the Reincarnation on the person, this can get tricky depending how
the character lived their lives. Also keeping Reincarnation as a divine gift
allows the DM to add any particular quirks to a character that is brought
back. Who knows what the plans the gods may be working on?

Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net
RL Homepage: http://www.metrolink.net/~veleda/sepulcher.html

[Matthew M. Colville]

Ok. . .

The questions has arisen; how is it, if preists can cast
Ressurection, no-one in Cerilia has ressurected Michele Roele?

I have a *possible* answer.

I bought, a while ago, the Rod Of Seven Parts Tome adventure. My
PCs will be going through it sometime after they go through Night Below. I
encorporated the Rod in this way.

In the excellent fantasy series The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant
by Stephen R. Donaldson, there was a powerful artifact called The Staff Of
Law (read: The Rod Of Seven Parts.) Someone misused it and ressurected an
ancient, powerful Good-Guy. As a *result* of that, the Law Of Death was
broken. I.e. the law, or rule, or fact of life, or whatever, that
prevented people from coming back from the dead had been broken and
afterwards Undead could be created and all manner of fell beasts were let
loose.

Ok, so I basically merge these two mythos. In my world there was
once a time (thousands of years ago, way before Mount Deismarr) when there
were no Undead, no Ressurection or Raise Dead, and no Shadow World. . .then
the Staff of Law (I preferr this name to the Rod Of Seven parts. I also
call bits of the Rod Fragments, not Segements,) was shattered and, amoung
other things, the Law of Death was broken.

A GM who wanted to have both Ressurections and Raise Dead and yet
also not have Micheal Roele walking around could either introduce the
concept of the Staff as an artifact that existed 500 years ago and was
broken then, or push back the date of Micheal Roele's death to period
suitably distant for such an artifact. Then, simply say that since Roele
died before the Law Of Death was broken, he cannot be brought back,
although everyone *since* then can.

Also it would give your 10th level PCs something to do (i.e. you
could buy the Rod Of Seven Parts boxed set adventure.)

[Robert Harper]

At 04:35 PM 1/10/97 -0800, you wrote:

> The questions has arisen; how is it, if preists can cast
>Ressurection, no-one in Cerilia has ressurected Michele Roele?
>
> I have a *possible* answer. >snip<
> In the excellent fantasy series The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant
>by Stephen R. Donaldson, there was a powerful artifact called The Staff Of
>Law (read: The Rod Of Seven Parts.) Someone misused it and ressurected an
>ancient, powerful Good-Guy. As a *result* of that, the Law Of Death was
>broken. I.e. the law, or rule, or fact of life, or whatever, that
>prevented people from coming back from the dead had been broken and
>afterwards Undead could be created and all manner of fell beasts were let
>loose.
>
Neat! Or as the Wizard Anne would say "Groovy!"

Lots of possible uses - even in a standard campaign, "Every time the veil of
shadows is parted and soul called back from across the river of death other
souls, hungry for life, may come with it. Only utmost urgency and need will
drive a Priest of the Light to call back a soul and unleash these other
spirits on the world. And if they are unleased, the soul called back is
connected to them because of their passage together across the river of
death. It shall feel the anguish of their victims and be tortured by the
knowledge of their crimes until it has tracked down and destroyed each spirit."

__________________________________________________ _________________
| |
| We ask ourselves if there is a God, how can this happen? |
| Better to ask, if there is a God, must it be sane? |
| |
| Lucien LaCroix |
|_________________________________________________ __________________|

[Undertaker]

At 09:23 PM 1/10/97 -0500, Robert Harper(rob.harper@sympatico.ca)wrote:
>
>At 04:35 PM 1/10/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>
>> I have a *possible* answer. >snip<
>> In the excellent fantasy series The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant
>>by Stephen R. Donaldson, there was a powerful artifact called The Staff Of
>>Law (read: The Rod Of Seven Parts.) Someone misused it and ressurected an
>>ancient, powerful Good-Guy. As a *result* of that, the Law Of Death was
>>broken. I.e. the law, or rule, or fact of life, or whatever, that
>>prevented people from coming back from the dead had been broken and
>>afterwards Undead could be created and all manner of fell beasts were let
>>loose.
>>
>
>Lots of possible uses - even in a standard campaign, "Every time the veil of
>shadows is parted and soul called back from across the river of death other
>souls, hungry for life, may come with it. Only utmost urgency and need will
>drive a Priest of the Light to call back a soul and unleash these other
>spirits on the world. And if they are unleased, the soul called back is
>connected to them because of their passage together across the river of
>death. It shall feel the anguish of their victims and be tortured by the
>knowledge of their crimes until it has tracked down and destroyed each spirit."
>

This sounds real good. I plan on making Reincarnation hard for my Players to
use, but this might be the little extra something that helps drive home the
fact, that prehaps the dead are left buried. Here again I think the Van
Richten line from RL might be of use. This time it would have to be VR's gd
to Ghosts. This way each spirit would be unique. Anyhow I like the idea of
making the PCs fear bringing someone back, and as Robert said, they will
have a hard time convincing a good Priest to undertake the spell. For fear
of causing more harm then good.

Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net
RL Homepage: http://www.metrolink.net/~veleda/sepulcher.html

[Matthew M. Colville]

The *obvious* reason, which someone may have brought up and I may have
missed it, that Micheal Roele hasn't been ressurected is this:

He failed his ressurection survival roll. Big deal. No need to debate
the subject of Ressurection/Raise dead on Cerilia. Famous dead people
remain dead because they failed their Ressurection Survival Roll.

[Undertaker]

At 10:36 AM 1/11/97 +0000, Matthew M. Colville(mcolville@earthlink.net)wrote:
>
>The *obvious* reason, which someone may have brought up and I may have
>missed it, that Micheal Roele hasn't been ressurected is this:
>
> He failed his ressurection survival roll. Big deal. No need to debate
>the subject of Ressurection/Raise dead on Cerilia. Famous dead people
>remain dead because they failed their Ressurection Survival Roll.
>

That is a simple way to put it, but while it sounds nice, its unlikely that
every person whom the attempt has been made on would have failed. Most
importantly it dosen't address the riding concern of PCs returning from the
dead. If you want to allow characters to return from the dead thats fine. I
just feel that an unspoken precedent has been set with both the novels, and
the wording of the rulebook. As far as a debate goes, there is always reason
to debate, when people have differing ideas on the same subject. Besides
when the threat of death is very real, and very permanent, it truley divides
the heroes, from the common man. I'm afraid I can't swallow a hundred, or
more, failed checks. Assuming that almost every Regent would have at least
tried to be brought back if it was possible, and applicable. They all would
have to have failed their checks, and thats a bit much. Besides thats a
little too convenient, and dosen't explain why someone didn't eventually use
a Wish to do the job. Either way, to each his own, by no means do I want to
sound like I'm telling you the way things should be. Each DM needs to make
his own decision concerning this. I just thought it might be a subject any
BR DM would want to think about. The only point I was trying to make was, it
seems if coming back is not an option, BR becomes an even more heroic
setting. Where the faint of heart need not strive for greatness. Giving the
setting a strong Arthurian feel.

Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net
RL Homepage: http://www.metrolink.net/~veleda/sepulcher.html

[Matthew M. Colville]

>At 10:36 AM 1/11/97 +0000, Matthew M. Colville(mcolville@earthlink.net)wrote:
>>
>>The *obvious* reason, which someone may have brought up and I may have
>>missed it, that Micheal Roele hasn't been ressurected is this:
>>
>> He failed his ressurection survival roll. Big deal. No need to debate
>>the subject of Ressurection/Raise dead on Cerilia. Famous dead people
>>remain dead because they failed their Ressurection Survival Roll.
>>
>
>That is a simple way to put it, but while it sounds nice, its unlikely that
>every person whom the attempt has been made on would have failed. Most
>importantly it dosen't address the riding concern of PCs returning from the
>dead. If you want to allow characters to return from the dead thats fine. I
>just feel that an unspoken precedent has been set with both the novels, and
>the wording of the rulebook. As far as a debate goes, there is always reason
>to debate, when people have differing ideas on the same subject. Besides
>when the threat of death is very real, and very permanent, it truley divides
>the heroes, from the common man. I'm afraid I can't swallow a hundred, or
>more, failed checks. Assuming that almost every Regent would have at least
>tried to be brought back if it was possible, and applicable. They all would
>have to have failed their checks, and thats a bit much. Besides thats a
>little too convenient, and dosen't explain why someone didn't eventually use
>a Wish to do the job. Either way, to each his own, by no means do I want to
>sound like I'm telling you the way things should be. Each DM needs to make
>his own decision concerning this. I just thought it might be a subject any
>BR DM would want to think about. The only point I was trying to make was, it
>seems if coming back is not an option, BR becomes an even more heroic
>setting. Where the faint of heart need not strive for greatness. Giving the
>setting a strong Arthurian feel.

My stuff is in my car, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought if
you, the player, fail your Ressurection Survival roll, you're dead forever,
no more attempts possible.
Additionally, I havn't found anywhere in the Birthright rules that
forbids ressurection.
And lastly, any gripe you have with PCs coming back from the dead
is a gripe with AD&D, not Birthright. I, personally, don't like the idea
of a PC I've spent months, or years, developing dying forever for no good
reason other than I didn't roll high enough on a saving throw.
There *is* permanent death; it's when you fail your Ressurection
roll. I've played in several successful AD&D games and in one I was lucky
enough to have a GM and a group of players who got together every thursday
night for 3 years. I worked, and by that I mean WORKED, a character of
mine up from 0 level to 14th, and by that time he had died many, many
times. Yet I still felt pretty damn heroic. Not being able to come back
would have simply meant that I would never have made it past 7th level (the
point at which I first died.) I wouldn't have gotten the opportunity to
see a character develop in personality, power, and history the way I did,
and the experience would have been lessened as a result of it.