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Thread: Death
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01-12-1997, 09:03 AM #11UndertakerGuest
Death
At 08:54 PM 1/11/97 -0800, Matthew M. Colville(mcolville@earthlink.net)wrote:
>
> My stuff is in my car, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought if
>you, the player, fail your Ressurection Survival roll, you're dead forever,
>no more attempts possible.
>
Your right a failed RS roll prevents a character from being brought back to
life, with standard raise dead type spells, but the power of a Wish can
overturn even this if the DM allows. Also with a Wish, time is no factor
when bringing someone back.
>
> Additionally, I havn't found anywhere in the Birthright rules that
>forbids ressurection.
>
Again your right, nowhere does it say this. As I said though, comments made
in the BR Rulebook particularly the parts about BT, just sound like when a
Scion dies he is gone. But I must stress this is just the way it sounds to
me. I understand that not everyone would get the same impression. Much of my
opinion is colored from reading the BR novels, and my Players feelings. They
seem to have gotten the same idea from them as well. That is one of the
reasons I put forth this idea to start with, to see if anyone else had
gotten the same thought.
>
> And lastly, any gripe you have with PCs coming back from the dead
>is a gripe with AD&D, not Birthright. I, personally, don't like the idea
>of a PC I've spent months, or years, developing dying forever for no good
>reason other than I didn't roll high enough on a saving throw.
> There *is* permanent death; it's when you fail your Ressurection
>roll. I've played in several successful AD&D games and in one I was lucky
>enough to have a GM and a group of players who got together every thursday
>night for 3 years. I worked, and by that I mean WORKED, a character of
>mine up from 0 level to 14th, and by that time he had died many, many
>times. Yet I still felt pretty damn heroic. Not being able to come back
>would have simply meant that I would never have made it past 7th level (the
>point at which I first died.) I wouldn't have gotten the opportunity to
>see a character develop in personality, power, and history the way I did,
>and the experience would have been lessened as a result of it.
>
Really this is not a gripe, its an opinion. I just think that each campaign
setting needs to have certain elements looked at in the light of the style
of the setting. In my Greyhawk campaign raise dead magic is not that
uncommon, and can be had with enough gold, or elbow grease. But in BR I just
don't think it fits the style, thats all. Really the RS roll is not a great
thing to use as the end-all-be-all of coming back from the dead. Even an
average Con. will have a fairly high chance of making it, and as I said
before, a Wish can overturn even that restriction. That is not really the
point though. I understand that it can really stink to lose a character just
as you feel he is getting somewhere, but I can't help wondering how much
more heroic the survivors(the other Party members) would have felt if they
knew they had escaped a real chance at oblivion, not just a possible set
back. I know each event was probably unique, and I'm not in any position to
comment on your game, so please don't take offense at my previous statement.
It was a generality, just to give some thought. Many games, and settings,
seem to require an abundance of raise dead magics. In fact I do understand
the need, in some level, to allow characters to return from the dead, as a
game mechanic in all AD&D settings. Its just I question how available it
should be in BR, not in AD&D in general. Each setting needs to have this
subject handled appropriatly, and in the end its still up to the DM. All
that matters is everyone has fun while playing, and if a Player will truley
have their experience ruined with the death of a favorite character, then
maybe raise dead magics should be more available in that game. No matter
what its your game, so you can do as you see fit.
Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net
RL Homepage: http://www.metrolink.net/~veleda/sepulcher.html
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01-12-1997, 08:15 PM #12Matthew M. ColvilleGuest
Death
>At 10:36 AM 1/11/97 +0000, Matthew M. Colville(mcolville@earthlink.net)wrote:
> My stuff is in my car, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought if
>you, the player, fail your Ressurection Survival roll, you're dead forever,
>no more attempts possible.
I'm replying to myself because I looked it up, and I'm right. If
you fail your Ressurection Survival roll, you are dead forever. Not even a
Wish can bring you back. Only 'Divine Intervention,' (i.e. the GM saying
"ok, what the hell?") can bring you back.
So Micheal Roele rolled 00 for his Ress. Surv. Roll and will
forever more be dead. End of story.
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01-12-1997, 10:42 PM #13Michael Andrew CullinghaGuest
Death
> >At 10:36 AM 1/11/97 +0000, Matthew M. Colville(mcolville@earthlink.net)wrote:
> > My stuff is in my car, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought if
> >you, the player, fail your Ressurection Survival roll, you're dead forever,
> >no more attempts possible.
>
>
> I'm replying to myself because I looked it up, and I'm right. If
> you fail your Ressurection Survival roll, you are dead forever. Not even a
> Wish can bring you back. Only 'Divine Intervention,' (i.e. the GM saying
> "ok, what the hell?") can bring you back.
>
> So Micheal Roele rolled 00 for his Ress. Surv. Roll and will
> forever more be dead. End of story.
I've come up with some more possible reasons for why Michael
Roele wasn't brought back to life, but they depend on my
treating the BR novels as canon:
1) In the novel "The Iron Throne", Michael Roele's body was
not recovered because the Anuirean army lost the battle (or
at least it looked that way).
2) In my campaigns, if a character doesn't want to be brought
back to life, nothing can bring him back to life. And if I
remember correctly, MR appeared to have almost a death wish
when he went after the Gorgon. I extrapolated that in death
he was reunited with his wife, and therefore would not want to
be raised from the dead.
So with these, along with the numerous other reasons presented
on this list, it is completely plausible to me that raising the
dead will work on Aebrynis (sp?) even if MR stayed dead.
I'm still undecided on whether a blooded scion that dies will
be brought back to life with his bloodline intact though, but
I'm leaning towards bringing a blooded character back from
the dead as an unblooded character.
Just some food for thought,
Mike
- --
***********************************
Michael Cullingham
macullin@acs.ucalgary.ca
http://www.ucalgary.ca/~macullin/
***********************************
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01-13-1997, 12:38 AM #14UndertakerGuest
Death
At 12:15 PM 1/12/97 -0800, Matthew M. Colville(mcolville@earthlink.net)wrote:
>
> I'm replying to myself because I looked it up, and I'm right. If
>you fail your Ressurection Survival roll, you are dead forever. Not even a
>Wish can bring you back. Only 'Divine Intervention,' (i.e. the GM saying
>"ok, what the hell?") can bring you back.
>
> So Micheal Roele rolled 00 for his Ress. Surv. Roll and will
>forever more be dead. End of story.
>
I think a DM should decide on the limitations of a Wish. Not just take a
rule at face value, but thats me, I'm kind of big on DMs having final say
concerning all rules. Regardless of what is printed in the Rulebooks,
although I must point out the rule on RS rolls do not exclude the use of a
Wish specifically. So I think this was one point they wanted to be decided
on by individual DMs. I've been in campaigns where Wishes are granted by
god-like beings, so in effect a Wish is divine intervention. This, like many
things, is handled differently, by different DMs. There is no cut, and dry,
rule to this no matter how hard you look. I stand by my opinion that each DM
should make their own decision concerning the dead returning, but honestly I
can't think of anything less heroic sounding then a failed RS roll. But if
that is the history, and rule, in your game thats fine. I just want a little
more role playing, and less game mechanic in my game. To each his own.
Bottom line though neither of us works for TSR, so neither one of us can
make the decision for why Micheal was not brought back for everyone.
Although according to you they left a big chunk of info. out of the Iron
Throne. I think the two of us have reached an impass. You have your beliefs,
and I have mine, and neither of us is wrong, but at this point I think we
are beating a dead horse(no pun intended). With luck the powers that be have
seen our discussion, and maybe something official will be said, but I think
we'll have to wait for the Book of Priestcraft to find out.
Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net
RL Homepage: http://www.metrolink.net/~veleda/sepulcher.html
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01-13-1997, 12:46 AM #15UndertakerGuest
Death
At 03:42 PM 1/12/97 MST, Michael Cullingham(macullin@acs.ucalgary.ca)wrote:
>
>I've come up with some more possible reasons for why Michael
>Roele wasn't brought back to life, but they depend on my
>treating the BR novels as canon:
>
>
>2) In my campaigns, if a character doesn't want to be brought
>back to life, nothing can bring him back to life. And if I
>remember correctly, MR appeared to have almost a death wish
>when he went after the Gorgon. I extrapolated that in death
>he was reunited with his wife, and therefore would not want to
>be raised from the dead.
>
I like your idea. It does seem unlikely anyone would want to return from
paradise. It could also make a good adventure for a party to travel to the
afterlife, and convience Micheal, or someone else to come back.
Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net
RL Homepage: http://www.metrolink.net/~veleda/sepulcher.html
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01-13-1997, 07:46 PM #16Jaanus LillenbergGuest
Death
Hello
Undertaker wrote:
>
> At 10:36 AM 1/11/97 +0000, Matthew M. Colville(mcolville@earthlink.net)wrote:
> >
> >The *obvious* reason, which someone may have brought up and I may have
> >missed it, that Micheal Roele hasn't been ressurected is this:
> >
> > He failed his ressurection survival roll. Big deal. No need to debate
> >the subject of Ressurection/Raise dead on Cerilia. Famous dead people
> >remain dead because they failed their Ressurection Survival Roll.
> >
>
> That is a simple way to put it, but while it sounds nice, its unlikely that
> every person whom the attempt has been made on would have failed. Most
> importantly it dosen't address the riding concern of PCs returning from the
Why not, to tell them that Oh, lad, priest said he didn't survive the
resurrection. And , oh yes, some years ago, another scion broght here
to be resurrected didnt survive either.
Let them figure out that something is wrong. You dont have to tell them
that Oh, guys, don't even try. That won't work in this world. That
would be plain, at least it looks plain way to put the things for me.
> more, failed checks. Assuming that almost every Regent would have at least
> tried to be brought back if it was possible, and applicable. They all would
> have to have failed their checks, and thats a bit much. Besides thats a
Yes yes, bit much :))
> little too convenient, and dosen't explain why someone didn't eventually use
> a Wish to do the job. Either way, to each his own, by no means do I want to
> sound like I'm telling you the way things should be. Each DM needs to make
> his own decision concerning this. I just thought it might be a subject any
> BR DM would want to think about. The only point I was trying to make was, it
> seems if coming back is not an option, BR becomes an even more heroic
> setting. Where the faint of heart need not strive for greatness. Giving the
> setting a strong Arthurian feel.
Yes, the birthright in the way IS (for me) the most heroic setting
with STRONG Arthurian heel..
Greetings from
Jaanus Lillenberg
- ---
jaanusl@postimees.ee
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01-14-1997, 06:00 AM #17UndertakerGuest
Death
At 12:13 AM 1/14/97 +0200, Jaanus Lillenberg(jaanusl@postimees.ee)wrote:
>
>As I recall, there was also something said about MRs death and why he
>didn't came back in BoM (Book of Magecraft). Check it out :))
>
Thanks for the remind. I'll have to read through it again, and take a look.
You don't happen to remeber the page? I hate to sound lazy, but if you have
it handy, it would save me some time. Thanks again for bringing this up, it
might answer all my wonderings.
Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net
RL Homepage: http://www.metrolink.net/~veleda/sepulcher.html
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01-14-1997, 06:00 AM #18UndertakerGuest
Death
At 04:20 PM 1/13/97 MST, Michael Cullingham(macullin@acs.ucalgary.ca)wrote:
>>
>> As I recall, there was also something said about MRs death and why he
>> didn't came back in BoM (Book of Magecraft). Check it out :))
>
>I don't have this book yet, but I thought of another reason.
>Perhaps the Gorgon has somehow managed to trap MR's soul or
>something. It seems to me to be something that the Gorgon
>might get his dark priests to do. At least until the day
>the Gorgon figures out how to ressurect MR with bloodline
>intact so that he may steal it. I may just use this one
>myself.
>
What if MR's Ghost haunts the Gorgon. His spectral form could torment him,
on the eve of their fateful battle. Sorry a little RL slipped in there.
While it may not affect game play much, it could still be a neat sidestory.
Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net
RL Homepage: http://www.metrolink.net/~veleda/sepulcher.html
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01-14-1997, 01:21 PM #19Jaanus LillenbergGuest
Death
Hello
Undertaker wrote:
>
> At 04:20 PM 1/13/97 MST, Michael Cullingham(macullin@acs.ucalgary.ca)wrote:
> >>
> >> As I recall, there was also something said about MRs death and why he
> >> didn't came back in BoM (Book of Magecraft). Check it out :))
> >
> >I don't have this book yet, but I thought of another reason.
> >Perhaps the Gorgon has somehow managed to trap MR's soul or
> >something. It seems to me to be something that the Gorgon
> >might get his dark priests to do. At least until the day
> >the Gorgon figures out how to ressurect MR with bloodline
> >intact so that he may steal it. I may just use this one
> >myself.
> >
>
> What if MR's Ghost haunts the Gorgon. His spectral form could torment him,
> on the eve of their fateful battle. Sorry a little RL slipped in there.
> While it may not affect game play much, it could still be a neat sidestory.
>
Yes, perhaps. About spectral scions.. I have the some players playing in
Roesone. They have some equipment which belonged to Black Baron
the founder of Roesone. Now the spectral form of the old Baron will
appear every time the weapons or armour are touched. So it guards
his ownings, but also the present regent has to explain him, why
he will use his possessions :).
About page.. I don't really remember. But I GUESS it was there.
Anyway reading the BoM over again is a thing worth to do anyway :)
With greetings
Jaanus Lillenberg
- ---
jaanusl@postimees.ee
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