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Thread: Opinions.

  1. #1
    Jesse LaBranche
    Guest

    Opinions.

    Hello All,

    First off, let me apologize for a couple of things. 1) For those lists
    which have "key words" sorry- I wasn't about to go through the keywords for
    10 different mailing lists just to post a msg, 2) For cross-posting, those
    of you who are on multiple lists are going to get this missive in multiplet.
    My apologies again.
    Unfortunately, what I have to say is relevant to all of the lists and
    rather than say it 10 different ways to 10 different groups, I'm saying it
    once to gamers in general. I'm not posting this for purposes of debate, but
    more to express a dissatisfaction and see how many others feel the same way.
    For those who feel the same way that I do about all this, please write
    me- I'd love to hear from you and maybe discuss alternatives to the problem.

    A short bit of history, and the problems will reveal themselves I think.
    I started role-playing in 1975 using a water works game to randomly
    determine dungeons and dice counters to use as monsters because I'd heard
    just enough about D&D to get my mind working.
    By Christmas of 1976 I had the D&D Basic rules boxed set, and started
    playing that day. It was not long before I made a transition from D&D to
    AD&D because it made more sense to me in the ability to mix-match classes
    and races.
    (For those of you who don't know, "Elf" in D&D meant your class/race was
    an Elf. The equivalent of an Elven Fighter/Magic-User, "Hobbit" was a Thief,
    etc.)
    About 1990, they cancelled Greyhawk as the predominent setting and
    brought the Realms out. Now, in 2000, WotC is planning to do the same thing
    again to the Forgotten Realms. While this may be somewhat of a
    pleasure/relief to Greyhawk gamers, it definitely isn't to those who enjoy
    the Realms (And no I'm not one of them).
    Alright, now on to the problems. Those who never played 1st edition
    because 2nd was already out might wish to take some notes, because many of
    you will be up on the soapbox one day wishing to hell that you'd listened to
    this, just like I'm wishing I could remember the talk when we went to 2nd.
    When 1st edition ended, there were something like 15 hardback books.
    TSR's statements at the time were that they were going to cut back to two
    hardbacks and a couple monstrous compendium notebooks. The plan with the
    notebooks was that each monster would take up a page (Front and back) so
    that they could be inserted into the books and alphabetized for quick
    reference.
    The basic statement was that they were "stream-lining" the system. The
    truth of the matter turned out to be that TSR was going broke and they
    needed to boost sales. Putting out 2nd edition and a new world fulfilled
    that need for them.
    Not too long ago, statements were made by various TSR staff-members that
    the Realms, Planescape, and Ravenloft would not be cut with the advent of
    3rd edition. Guess what? Bullshit. They've cut Ravenloft. I don't know about
    the other two, because I'm not as involved in them.
    Currently, TSR has produced the following worlds: Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur
    (Both were shifted to the Realms AFTER their inception), Dark-Sun,
    Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Birthright, Mystara, Planescape,
    Ravenloft, and Spelljjammer.
    Out of these, countless dollars were spent on all of these by gamers.
    Virtually every one of these systems had at least a boxed set and a hardback
    book to them. Bringing the minimum investment to $60. When you discuss the
    added product we're talking hundreds of dollars.
    From 11 stated settings, TSR (as of year 2000) will support 3. What
    about the gamers in the other settings? Straight-up, they're turning their
    backs on you. They say "we cannot afford to support every line". Alright, we
    can handle that... explain this... Why did they stop Mystara? It's reported
    that it was doing anything but running in the red. What about Ravenloft? The
    support on that list is almost as strong as it is on the Realms list.
    I've play-tested 3rd edition, played the game for 23 years, and studied
    the company for about that long. Has TSR told you that they're
    "streamlining" the system again? Look at their FAQ on the subject, they've
    stated 11 books in there that they "might" produced. Stream-lining.
    I have signed NDA's with WotC and I dropped out of the 3rd ed.
    play-testing because myself and the rest of my group (a very diverse group
    of players ranging in age from 16-33 and gaming experience from brand new to
    23 years. Fans of 6 different genres, and both sexes). None of us liked the
    new work.
    WotC has stated that conversion isn't that difficult. Here's some
    questions on that fact. 1) I've got 23 years worth of adventures, monsters,
    npc's, magic items. How many do you have? Try converting them in numbers and
    power from 2nd edition to any other game system on the market and consider
    the time involved there. That's what WotC is talking about, 2) How many
    times have you heard a A BOOK (Emphasis not shouting) to convert from one
    edition to another in a game? That's what WotC talks about in their FAQ, 3)
    How many times have you ever heard of needing to buy a book to convert from
    an old edition to a new one? More often than not, conversion charts are in
    the new material.
    While I do have respect for many of the designers that I've met and
    worked with through WotC, I am finished with AD&D. In MY book- D&D will
    always be the game that existed before 1st edition, and 3rd edition will
    never exist !!!!!
    TSR's history has always been "expand the market" and forget about the
    customer base that they've already got. If you don't believe it, just ask
    the fans who've been turned off by their discontinuing any one of the gaming
    worlds.
    Maybe in 5 years, after WotC has milked every penny possible out of 3rd
    edition, I'll come back for a bit and see if Hasbro can do anything to fix
    the problems. To all of you, who've been great talking to, listening to,
    arguing with, and wonderful for ideas in my (once) favorite gaming system,
    and favorite gaming worlds... I guess it's "later"... Feel free to write me
    at the e-mail address below, maybe one day in the not too distant future,
    I'll have a mailing list established to cater to those who are boy-cotting
    WotC/TSR as I will be now.
    Anyway, finally to those who've been supporting the "dead world" lists-
    Dark Sun, Mystara, Dragonlance, Greyhawk (until recently), Birthright,
    Planescape, Spelljammer, Al-Qadim, and Ravenloft (as of 2000)- I salute you
    and fare thee well for those worlds will never die in your hearts and minds.

    Jesse
    vanquer@email.msn.com







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  2. #2
    ron poirier
    Guest

    Opinions.

    Blather blather blather... Rah rah rah...
    Gripe gripe gripe...

    *Sigh*

    When 3rd Ed. comes out, I will buy it. I will take what I like, discard
    what I don't like, and play what is left on the table. Just like I always do.

    Yeah, I've been playing since the old "Basic" D&D boxed sets with Erol Otus
    artwork on the cover. So I've seen it all, too.

    - Ron ^*^


    At 04:57 AM 9/21/99 -0700, you wrote:
    >Hello All,
    >
    > First off, let me apologize for a couple of things. 1) For those lists
    >which have "key words" sorry- I wasn't about to go through the keywords for
    >10 different mailing lists just to post a msg, 2) For cross-posting, those
    >of you who are on multiple lists are going to get this missive in multiplet.
    >My apologies again.
    > Unfortunately, what I have to say is relevant to all of the lists and
    >rather than say it 10 different ways to 10 different groups, I'm saying it
    >once to gamers in general. I'm not posting this for purposes of debate, but
    >more to express a dissatisfaction and see how many others feel the same way.
    > For those who feel the same way that I do about all this, please write
    >me- I'd love to hear from you and maybe discuss alternatives to the problem.
    >
    > A short bit of history, and the problems will reveal themselves I think.
    >I started role-playing in 1975 using a water works game to randomly
    >determine dungeons and dice counters to use as monsters because I'd heard
    >just enough about D&D to get my mind working.
    > By Christmas of 1976 I had the D&D Basic rules boxed set, and started
    >playing that day. It was not long before I made a transition from D&D to
    >AD&D because it made more sense to me in the ability to mix-match classes
    >and races.
    > (For those of you who don't know, "Elf" in D&D meant your class/race was
    >an Elf. The equivalent of an Elven Fighter/Magic-User, "Hobbit" was a Thief,
    >etc.)
    > About 1990, they cancelled Greyhawk as the predominent setting and
    >brought the Realms out. Now, in 2000, WotC is planning to do the same thing
    >again to the Forgotten Realms. While this may be somewhat of a
    >pleasure/relief to Greyhawk gamers, it definitely isn't to those who enjoy
    >the Realms (And no I'm not one of them).
    > Alright, now on to the problems. Those who never played 1st edition
    >because 2nd was already out might wish to take some notes, because many of
    >you will be up on the soapbox one day wishing to hell that you'd listened to
    >this, just like I'm wishing I could remember the talk when we went to 2nd.
    > When 1st edition ended, there were something like 15 hardback books.
    >TSR's statements at the time were that they were going to cut back to two
    >hardbacks and a couple monstrous compendium notebooks. The plan with the
    >notebooks was that each monster would take up a page (Front and back) so
    >that they could be inserted into the books and alphabetized for quick
    >reference.
    > The basic statement was that they were "stream-lining" the system. The
    >truth of the matter turned out to be that TSR was going broke and they
    >needed to boost sales. Putting out 2nd edition and a new world fulfilled
    >that need for them.
    > Not too long ago, statements were made by various TSR staff-members that
    >the Realms, Planescape, and Ravenloft would not be cut with the advent of
    >3rd edition. Guess what? Bullshit. They've cut Ravenloft. I don't know about
    >the other two, because I'm not as involved in them.
    > Currently, TSR has produced the following worlds: Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur
    >(Both were shifted to the Realms AFTER their inception), Dark-Sun,
    >Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Birthright, Mystara, Planescape,
    >Ravenloft, and Spelljjammer.
    > Out of these, countless dollars were spent on all of these by gamers.
    >Virtually every one of these systems had at least a boxed set and a hardback
    >book to them. Bringing the minimum investment to $60. When you discuss the
    >added product we're talking hundreds of dollars.
    > From 11 stated settings, TSR (as of year 2000) will support 3. What
    >about the gamers in the other settings? Straight-up, they're turning their
    >backs on you. They say "we cannot afford to support every line". Alright, we
    >can handle that... explain this... Why did they stop Mystara? It's reported
    >that it was doing anything but running in the red. What about Ravenloft? The
    >support on that list is almost as strong as it is on the Realms list.
    > I've play-tested 3rd edition, played the game for 23 years, and studied
    >the company for about that long. Has TSR told you that they're
    >"streamlining" the system again? Look at their FAQ on the subject, they've
    >stated 11 books in there that they "might" produced. Stream-lining.
    > I have signed NDA's with WotC and I dropped out of the 3rd ed.
    >play-testing because myself and the rest of my group (a very diverse group
    >of players ranging in age from 16-33 and gaming experience from brand new to
    >23 years. Fans of 6 different genres, and both sexes). None of us liked the
    >new work.
    > WotC has stated that conversion isn't that difficult. Here's some
    >questions on that fact. 1) I've got 23 years worth of adventures, monsters,
    >npc's, magic items. How many do you have? Try converting them in numbers and
    >power from 2nd edition to any other game system on the market and consider
    >the time involved there. That's what WotC is talking about, 2) How many
    >times have you heard a A BOOK (Emphasis not shouting) to convert from one
    >edition to another in a game? That's what WotC talks about in their FAQ, 3)
    >How many times have you ever heard of needing to buy a book to convert from
    >an old edition to a new one? More often than not, conversion charts are in
    >the new material.
    > While I do have respect for many of the designers that I've met and
    >worked with through WotC, I am finished with AD&D. In MY book- D&D will
    >always be the game that existed before 1st edition, and 3rd edition will
    >never exist !!!!!
    > TSR's history has always been "expand the market" and forget about the
    >customer base that they've already got. If you don't believe it, just ask
    >the fans who've been turned off by their discontinuing any one of the gaming
    >worlds.
    > Maybe in 5 years, after WotC has milked every penny possible out of 3rd
    >edition, I'll come back for a bit and see if Hasbro can do anything to fix
    >the problems. To all of you, who've been great talking to, listening to,
    >arguing with, and wonderful for ideas in my (once) favorite gaming system,
    >and favorite gaming worlds... I guess it's "later"... Feel free to write me
    >at the e-mail address below, maybe one day in the not too distant future,
    >I'll have a mailing list established to cater to those who are boy-cotting
    >WotC/TSR as I will be now.
    > Anyway, finally to those who've been supporting the "dead world" lists-
    >Dark Sun, Mystara, Dragonlance, Greyhawk (until recently), Birthright,
    >Planescape, Spelljammer, Al-Qadim, and Ravenloft (as of 2000)- I salute you
    >and fare thee well for those worlds will never die in your hearts and minds.
    >
    >Jesse
    >vanquer@email.msn.com
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >************************************************* **************************
    >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
    >with the line 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
    >
    >
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  3. #3
    Grimwell, Cerilian
    Guest

    Opinions.

    >From: ron poirier
    >Blather blather blather... Rah rah rah...
    >Gripe gripe gripe...
    >
    >*Sigh*
    >
    >When 3rd Ed. comes out, I will buy it. I will take what I like, discard
    >what I don't like, and play what is left on the table. Just like I always
    >do.
    >
    >Yeah, I've been playing since the old "Basic" D&D boxed sets with Erol Otus
    >artwork on the cover. So I've seen it all, too.
    >
    > - Ron ^*^
    >

    Preach on Brother Beavis,

    I'm never more confused by any other gamer than the one who gets
    discouraged, makes a grandoise and "final" leave from the official setting,
    and then leaves and closes the door.

    Many of us have seen the long road change. Sometimes the game took the fork
    in the right direciton, sometimes it took the other one. While we should
    ernestly combat the company and keep our voice heard, we should not expect
    walking away with our hands defiantly raised to do much.

    The Greyhawk fans proved you can accomplish something if you work in and
    around the system at the same time. It's my hope that we here on the
    Birthright list are doing the same thing.

    A few people within the company have whispered the desire or potential for
    BR to see at least a limited release under 3E rules. I am all for it.

    I too will by 3E, and judge it when I read it. Until then, walking away and
    pulling off some blatant stunt for publicity is worthless. Plus, gamers are
    already a "underground" in popular culture as it is. Can we really support a
    "gamers underground" ????? :)


    >
    Grimwell, wizard of Cerilia
    The Birthright Revival is NOW! :)
    When you've had the best, why buy the rest?

    __________________________________________________ ____
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    with the line

  4. #4
    Olesens
    Guest

    Opinions.

    Grimwell wrote:

    >

    > The Greyhawk fans proved you can accomplish something if you work in and
    > around the system at the same time. It's my hope that we here on the
    > Birthright list are doing the same thing.
    >
    > A few people within the company have whispered the desire or potential for
    > BR to see at least a limited release under 3E rules. I am all for it.
    >
    >

    I agree, we can do it. I think that our major problem is that we haven't been
    really consistent. It's been on and off the list, people acting and then moving
    on to other things. Now I know that there are those very dedicated souls out
    there who are constantly keeping the good work up, and I commend them. But we
    need more than a few people. Instead of haphazardly pestering TSR/WotC and
    working on projects, I say we should plan out our campaign to revive
    Birthright. Let's load all our guns, aim 'em, and fire in unison. There are
    many on this list that are better and this stuff than me, so I'll throw in my
    suggestions then see what we can do. There are three major things I think we
    can do. Firstly, show support by expanding the setting wether or not TSR will,
    namely by our many projects, Birthright.net being the center for that.
    Secondly, bringing all the "lost" BR gamers on the web into our list (or a
    seperate "revival list" for those who don't want to get all the regular BR list
    emails). In looking for players for ITSoD, I've found about a dozen people at
    www.pbem.com who play BR but aren't on the list or get into BR once I tell them
    about it. Let's advertise everywhere on the web we can to get new players and
    unify the exsisting ones. Finally, we should continue in unison with our
    emailing of TSR staff members. Think, if every one of TSR's Brand Managers and
    other important people got an email from every member of this list (there are
    curently like 300 or 400 people?) on the same day, each telling why they
    love/like BR and why it should be brought back. Then that followed by a similar
    number of snail mail letters comming in during the following days. They
    couldn't ignore us then.

    Longer than I expected.... Okay, I'll stop now.

    - -Andrew
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  5. #5
    Kenneth Gauck
    Guest

    Opinions.

    Role-Playing games are fundamentally games of imagination. If you can't
    play it without a company spoon feeding it to you, get expanded cable
    service.

    Frankly, I prefer that there have been 11 lines produced by TSR. That's
    variety. Something you don't get with 3 lines that are a gazillion years
    old, and the only new material being produced either is reduced to defining
    how many socks Albert the Blacksmith has, or changing the world for you.

    I get the impression Jesse LaBranche wishes Ozzie and Harriet and Dick van
    Dyke were still on TV, rather than shows being added and deleted from the
    prime time line-up.

    As it happens, quality game materials come from lots of different avenues
    being pursued and the good ones being explored. But there are limits to
    people's interest in a game world and a limit to the quality contributions
    that can be made.

    I hope that in the next 25 years, TSR/WoC gives us another 10 plus worlds,
    so that I can select what *I* like from what is out there. I would *hate*
    to think that I would have been stuck with 3 worlds supported since 1975 and
    nothing there that really attracted me like BR did.

    BR was the only Box Set I purchased, and I was pleased with the whole
    campaign. Never would have happened if TSR hadn't tried a bunch of stuff
    knowing they could not support everything they tried.

    Make a lot of products and hope some of them are as good as you want all of
    them to be.

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@earthlink.net

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  6. #6
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    Opinions.

    Olesens wrote:

    >

    > . Finally, we should continue in unison with our
    > emailing of TSR staff members. Think, if every one of TSR's Brand Managers and
    > other important people got an email from every member of this list (there are
    > curently like 300 or 400 people?) on the same day, each telling why they
    > love/like BR and why it should be brought back. Then that followed by a similar
    > number of snail mail letters comming in during the following days. They
    > couldn't ignore us then.



    What you have just proposed is effectively a mail bomb. I am confident that this
    would not be appreciated.
    - --

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada


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  7. #7
    Olesens
    Guest

    Opinions.

    Pieter A de Jong wrote:

    > Olesens wrote:
    >
    > >
    >
    > > . Finally, we should continue in unison with our
    > > emailing of TSR staff members. Think, if every one of TSR's Brand Managers and
    > > other important people got an email from every member of this list (there are
    > > curently like 300 or 400 people?) on the same day, each telling why they
    > > love/like BR and why it should be brought back. Then that followed by a similar
    > > number of snail mail letters comming in during the following days. They
    > > couldn't ignore us then.
    >
    >
    >
    > What you have just proposed is effectively a mail bomb. I am confident that this
    > would not be appreciated.

    Sorry, I didn't intend it that way.

    - -Andrew
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  8. #8
    Michael Benner
    Guest

    Opinions.

    Evening All. As you can see my comments on this subject are not reflected
    at anyone but are simply my opinion on the subject matter. I often keep my
    opinions to myself. Although I remain in the shadows I have read every
    message that this groups has written since I joined 4 months ago.

    I joined this group for inspiration on the BR campaigns and adventures that
    I design. I used to rely on TSR/WoTC to give me this inspiration but they
    have abandoned the great and majestic campaign setting. The chances of
    TSR/WoTC/Hasbro ressurrecting BR are slim to none. So I hope this will
    inspire all of us to write our own adventures and materials, flesh out the
    Shadow World that is still a mystery, and give the creatures that we know
    exist flesh and blood by giving them stats and Ecology and then share them
    with the group. We have to do this since TSR/WoTC/Hasbro refuse to.

    I know gleam every useful piece of information this group sends and I
    encourage everyone to send more. I know, I and my group have benefited from
    the discussions we hold here and I thank you.

    Michael a.k.a "Caramus Lightsand"

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  9. #9
    Grimwell, Cerilian
    Guest

    Opinions.

    What you have just proposed is effectively a mail bomb. I am confident that
    this
    would not be appreciated.
    - --

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada


    I thought that a mail bomb was a single repeated message from a single user
    designed to flood a persons inbox. Back in my VAX days we had a program for
    that. Called up a cheezy graphic of the starship enterprise and sent photons
    to them for your bombs. you could flood a box and end apersons day until you
    got caught....

    Now then, Multiple people sending individual messages to a few people;
    that's just email.

    At least that's how I see it. To further things, here's a few addresses to
    hit in case you guys want to write some!

    Keith Strohm
    Brand Manager
    tsrkeith@aol.com

    Ryan Darcey
    Brand Manager
    ryand@frpg.com

    To take the point further, Rich Baker told me that contacting these people
    about our beloved game was DEAD ON a good idea directed to the right people.
    Apparently they make decisions. He didn't say bomb them and shut their box
    down. He did say an occasional poke/reminder that BR has fans would be
    productive in that it shows demand and customer willingness.

    Sick em!


    >
    Grimwell, wizard of Cerilia
    The Birthright Revival is NOW! :)
    When you've had the best, why buy the rest?

    __________________________________________________ ____
    Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.comTo unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
    with the line

  10. #10
    Jesse LaBranche
    Guest

    Opinions.

    Hello All,

    This will be my last list post directly on the subject, due to the fact
    that actual debate of 3rd ed. is anything but Birthright material.
    Especially considering that there is no such thing as Birthright any more
    (At least from WotC's perspective).
    I will gladly discuss such points in private e-mail with both sides of
    the coin as long as it remains discussion and not flaming. The reason for
    this post is that I apparently misrepresented my intent when it comes to my
    activity within D&D/AD&D, so here goes...

    > >When 3rd Ed. comes out, I will buy it. I will take what I like, discard
    > >what I don't like, and play what is left on the table. Just like I
    always
    > >do.
    > > - Ron ^*^

    Hmm... How much Birthright will you be buying?

    > Preach on Brother Beavis,
    > I'm never more confused by any other gamer than the one who gets
    > discouraged, makes a grandoise and "final" leave from the official
    setting,
    > and then leaves and closes the door.

    I didn't think it was a "grandiose final leave", however I am definitely
    closing
    the door on 3rd edition as it is not the same game as AD&D. It just has the
    AD&D label on it.
    I will still be an active participant in the D&D, 1st, and 2nd edition
    products,
    and will never stop RPing in general. Hope this clarified my earlier
    statements,
    and lifted some of that confusion- at least towards myself.

    > Many of us have seen the long road change. Sometimes the game took the
    fork
    > in the right direciton, sometimes it took the other one. While we should
    > ernestly combat the company and keep our voice heard, we should not expect
    > walking away with our hands defiantly raised to do much.

    Right now, the funds that go into 3rd edition from 2nd edition (and
    prior fans) is
    what will keep WotC running until the campaign for "expansion to new
    markets"
    takes place.
    If none, or very few, of the current base were to embrace 3rd edition it
    could
    not remain supported long enough for this "new fan base" to be established.
    In
    essence, my letter was more of a probe to get a feel for support/opposition
    than
    anything else, and to put out the truth on the matter.
    Anyway, at present, it appears that my idea of a full-scale boycott of
    the 3rd ed
    system is not going to be an effective measure because there are not enough
    of
    the D&D and 1st edition gamers willing to tell the 2nd edition group that it
    could
    work, and the 2nd ed. group hasn't already been through the change to
    realize
    what 3rd ed. will mean for them in general.

    > The Greyhawk fans proved you can accomplish something if you work in and
    > around the system at the same time. It's my hope that we here on the
    > Birthright list are doing the same thing.

    If this were truth, rather than the perception that WotC would prefer to
    be
    fostered, then Mystara would already have done the same thing, and it would
    have happened for Greyhawk much sooner.
    The actual truth of the matter (And I am NOT calling you a liar) is that
    WotC
    could not hope to bring those who were not playing in the Realms into them.
    They could not cancel the Realms because of the number of fans in them.
    Instead of putting the work and funding into a new product, they simply
    revived an old one. Then they run with two fan-bases until the expansion of
    the
    new market in 2-5 years when they drop one of the worlds (Any guesses which
    one gets phased out?)

    > A few people within the company have whispered the desire or potential for
    > BR to see at least a limited release under 3E rules. I am all for it.

    And more than a few within the company have voiced the desire and
    potential
    for Mystara to be revived. I'm all for it too. Yeah, they'll probably
    release a VERY
    LIMITED print-run for each of the worlds to convert to 3rd ed.
    They'll also, most likely, put conversion information in their
    conversion book for
    most of the game specific mechanics for most worlds. This will be just
    enough to
    give you the means to convert to 3rd ed. and further support the line, while
    they
    leave Birthright as a "dead world".
    I don't expect most of you to believe the above statement. Instead, keep
    it and
    see if the "nay-saying predictions" don't come true.

    > I too will by 3E, and judge it when I read it. Until then, walking away
    and
    > pulling off some blatant stunt for publicity is worthless. Plus, gamers
    are
    > already a "underground" in popular culture as it is. Can we really support
    a
    > "gamers underground" ????? :)

    This definitely wasn't a "publicity stunt". It was an attempt to let the
    truth out
    about what 3rd edition really is. Can we support a gamer's underground? It
    would
    be no less fragmenting than the moves from D&D to AD&D or from 1st ed to
    2nd.
    Can we continue to support a company who has shown that they don't care
    about
    the role-playing community?

    > Grimwell, wizard of Cerilia
    > The Birthright Revival is NOW! :)
    > When you've had the best, why buy the rest?

    Jesse.
    vanquer@email.msn.com



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