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01-30-2005, 12:00 PM #1
- Join Date
- Oct 2004
I've been asked this by others and I've also been asking myself over it, when I got some vassals at some point.
What do people feel is the acceptable vassalage agreement?
My own belief is that it should be 10% to 25%. Demand much more than that and you shouldn't expect a long life, at least not with vassals being NPCs. PCs may of course have other ideas. Only exception to this will be in the case of the Gorgon, but of course he can't really get killed no matter how much he demands.
If the vassal offers more than 25%, then that's the vassals choice. For instance Prince's Pride may do this, Highland/Overseas Traders and Boeruine Trading Guild. They wish to support their liege lord more than usual.
So, now that I have given mine, what do other people feel is acceptable?
01-30-2005, 03:56 PM #2
It depends on the political situation I'd say. If you are in a position to demand a high tribute, you can do so, but that will not always be the case. I've seen vassalages of 1RP/turn and vassalages taking away most of the RPs of the vassal.
However, generally speaking I think from 25% and upwards to 50% is about right for both liege lord and vassal.
I also require the tribute to be fixed, not as a percentage (say 5RP instead of 25%), and to change the fixed number a new vassalage ceremony must be conducted.
Lastly I make a clear distinction between tribute in RP and in GB. The former is linked to the vasalage ceremony, and failing to deliver will result in a minor regency los (at best). The later is more of a diplomatic thing, and while you liege might get angry at you for not delivering the promised gold, it not an automatic break of the vassalage.
DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM
01-30-2005, 06:11 PM #3
- Join Date
- Nov 2001
- Virginia Beach, Virginia
Heck there are some vasslages that might have no "real" tribute involved but only a promise to support.
In one of my games a PC was the regent of Roesone (not a Roesone by the way but the true love of Marlae who died). He was best friends with Marlae's brother and eventually gave him a a province to rule (a vassalage per say) but required nothing in exchange. It became a mutual benefit type of situation with promises of aid and support whenever needed.
Basically the exact number is all situational, IMO.Duane Eggert
01-31-2005, 10:52 PM #4
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
There does not need to be an exchange of gold or regency, Avanil or Boeruine could ask for a regent to a vassalage agreement with the idea of only voicing support for there claim to the Iron throne as an exsample or with the idea that military units may be asked in the futcure. But gold and regecny are the most common in vassalage agreements.
It also doesn't have to be a stronger country bulling a weeker one into submission it could be Ilien vassaling to Roesone for military protection or the like. Any way it sounds like you know enough about it already but i would say there is no set amount for such things.
02-01-2005, 07:18 PM #5
I require a formal Vassalage agreement to require at least 1 RP per season in tribute. This constitutes true vassalage, though 1 RP per season is mainly token support and not a show of overwhelming loyalty or dedication to one's liege. As others have said, the exact amount is left largely up to the exact nature of the liege-vassal relationship and agreement when the ceremony is performed. It really varies a lot, with a general understanding IMC that foraml, RP-granting vassalage is a BIG deal, and usually only the most powerful regents can expect such an arrangement in Anuire.
IMC in Anuire, there's only a few surviving regents with vassals: Darien Avan, Aeric Boeruine, and Elana Alwer (Baroness of Roesone, and now acclaimed liege and leader of the Anuirean Alliance. She has three primary vassals and a large number of token (1 RP) vassals, these being all of the other member regents of the Alliance). Elana is paving her road to the Iron Throne, it should be noted, and it is nearly within her grasp, hence her unusual status.
Far more common IMC are tributes, which denote a regular GB contribution from one regent to another. These are usually agreements calculated as percentages of a regent's net profits. The Alliance IMC has standardized a system of tributes as follows:
Landed regents, being primarily responsible for maintaining order (law) and the defense of their realms and the holdings within, are due regular tribute from non-landed regents within their domains.
-Guild regents pay a total of 1/3 of their total net profits to the landed Alliance regents, divided proportionally according to which landed realms their guild holdings are located in. So if a guilder has 1/3 of his guild holding levels within Roesone, then the Baroness of Roesone would recieve 1/3 of that guilder's total tribute to the Alliance (1/9 of his total net profits each season).
-Temple regents pay 1/4 of their total net profits to the landed regents in a similar, proportional system. During wartime, however, when the defense of an Alliance realm is at stake or a unified military action is called for, temple regents are expected to double their tribute in either cash or kind (providing the equivalent in military units, spellcasting support, or beneficial realm spells). The exact nature of what is "equivalent" is intentionally vague, allowing for individual temple regents to be flexible as best suits their strengths and powers.
-Source regents are expected to provide magical support, mainly in the form of realm magic, to any alliance realms in which they have source holdings. If a realm has more than one allied source regent within its borders, those mages (or druids) are expected to cooperate if necessary, especially in defense of the realm.
Down in Aduria, in a parallel campaign, the Duke of Mieres forged an Adurian Empire through conquest, diplomacy, and religious conversion. In classic medieval fashion, he gathered the most loyal and competent nobles of Mieres under him during his invasion and conquest. Those that seemed most loyal and competent were the first ones granted fiefs of their own, carved from the conquered lands. Wanting to keep things standardized and fair, he set down solid rules governing titles, fief sizes, vassalage, and tribute.
Standard vassalage for his landed lords was 1/4 of total RP collections.
Standard tribute was also 1/4 of total net profits in GB.
These tributes began after a 2-year grace period during which the vassal could consolidate their power and control of their new realms.
Tributes by guild, temple, and source regents mirror the alliance tributes outlined above (since the Duke of Mieres was also a member of the Alliance, there was a regular exchange of ideas). Guild and temple regents pay GB tributes to their local landed regents, which are included in the landed regents' total profits for the season. Thus, the vassal landed regents get the most immediate benefit of GB tribute, but the Emperor will also get a cut too (typically 1/12 of guild profits and 1/16 of temple profits, tho sometimes less from heavily militarized or otherwise unprofitable realms).
02-02-2005, 04:10 AM #6
At 01:00 PM 1/30/2005 +0100, Angelbialaska wrote:
>I`ve been asked this by others and I`ve also been asking myself over it,
>when I got some vassals at some point.
>What do people feel is the acceptable vassalage agreement?
>My own belief is that it should be 10% to 25%. Demand much more than that
>and you shouldn`t expect a long life, at least not with vassals being
>NPCs. PCs may of course have other ideas. Only exception to this will be
>in the case of the Gorgon, but of course he can`t really get killed no
>matter how much he demands.
>If the vassal offers more than 25%, then that`s the vassals choice. For
>instance Prince`s Pride may do this, Highland/Overseas Traders and
>Boeruine Trading Guild. They wish to support their liege lord more than usual.
>So, now that I have given mine, what do other people feel is acceptable?
Vassalage agreements are one of those things that have very little
adjudication in the original materials. It`s a basically sensible thing to
include in a system of domain rules, but aside from a sort of free-for-all
in regards to the transfer of RP/GB to a Liege that requires a domain
action to set up there`s not a lot of rules for this kind of thing. In my
experience a Vassalage agreement that dedicates more than 50% of the RP/GB
of a Vassal is prohibitively expensive. That is, it seems to take so much
from the Vassal that s/he cannot adequately rule or maintain the domain
that they control. That depends a bit, of course, on the size of the
original domain, but as a rough estimate that`d be my suggestion.
I`m wondering, however, if there might be a more elegant way of handling
Vassalage that already exists in the domain system. What if Vassalage
agreements could be assigned a rate (light, medium, heavy) like the
revenue/taxation portion of the domain rules? The specific amount of
transfer might be some regular percentage of overall RP/GB rather than a
specific number, and one could then also rate the relationship of a Vassal
to the respective Liege in a system not unlike they Loyalty system of
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