Ships?

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by graham anderson@Feb 3 2005, 01:15 PM

We just dont see things the same way. I think there is lots of items that show the rjurik as skilled seamen and raiders. Kvigmar has two trade routes so you are wrong there one to hjolvar and one to danigau. I dont think the text supports what you say at all they are talked about , described and named the same as the Knarr ships regents can get.

Now most ships are not going to be owned by regents but by traders and fishermen. In anuire they can buy their ships from the shipyards in the rjurik highlands I would say they build their own. I think that you have to have clincker built ships being different from others for the more primitive cultures to get ships at all.

Yup I missed those 2 trade routes - I was looking at an electronic copy (hard to read).

But here is something else to look at Kvigmar has a sea trade route from Kvigmareim to Hjolvar (Kopingdal).

(All of this is using the 2nd ed rules)

Both are level 4 provinces, both have all the guilds owned by the province regents. So that would mean that in this case the province regent must own the ships in question that are needed to run the sea trade route. In order to gain the benefit from a sea trade route enough ships to carry GB worth of cargo must be available. A knarr can carry 2 GB of cargo and 1 unit of troops, a longship can carry 1 GB of goods and 1 unit of troops. Holvar has a "fleet" of 1 longship. Insufficient to handle the trade route in question. The most efficient method would be to have 2 Knarrs dedicated to this purpose which would generate 4 GB worth of income from the trade route - but there are none listed in either country's navy. Maintenance on the ships would be 1 GB (maintenance is based on total troop capacity of the navy) which leaves a net income of 3 GB split among the regents. If longships are used it would require 4 and the maintenance for the ships would be 2 GB dropping any profit to 2 GB total.

If one takes the quote about dozens of knarr going out for fishing trips literally then the domain maintenance (remember the regent owns all of the guilds) would be totally unreal. It would be roughly 1 GB for every 3 ships (so for 24 ships it would be 8 GB). So in any logical sense here my opinion on TSR using the term knarr to mean more than one thing (one being small fishing boats that have no effect on the domain and the other the technical knarr (which can transport troops and goods)) - otherwise domain maintenance would never work. IMO small fishing ships require no real facilities.

Note that traders and fishermen (who are not regents) just can't possibly have the income necessary to purchase a ship like a knarr. It costs 6 GB which is roughly 12000 gp and 1 GB (2000 gp) per season for maintenance. What is the annual income of a fisherman? Using the ply trade rules from the BRRB, a fisher could make 5d6 gp per domain action (i.e., month). Nope, just doesn't look a fisherman could ever possibly afford a knarr (as listed in the Ships of Cerilia).

Any other logic to be applied here? I could be missing something. I was trying to calculate how large a longship and/or knarr had to be in order to support the number listed. Both can have carry 1 unit of troops and 1 (or 2) GB worth of cargo. Let's see if a single person takes up roughly 5 cu ft of space and each unit of troops is roughly 200 people then that would be 1000 cu ft of space for troops. Assuming that these are more open and that the troops are not fullly below deck (i.e., needed to row, etc.) then roughly 3/4 of that volume would be for them below the lip of the ship so 750 cu ft for people, not counting crew. Crew is specifically mentioned as coming with a ship and not being the troops carried. There is also the space necessary to carry the cargo. This is purely subjective but the Rjurik goods should be pretty bulky, since they are comprised mostly of lumber, food stuffs (especially fish), furs and such - all of which are kind of bulky.

Let's put the troops in rows with 6 in each and a small walk path between the two sets of 3. That puts the width at roughly 25 ft, and at least 33 rows and about 3-4 ft for each row (which comes to approx 132 ft). This still doesn't account for any room for cargo. Seems to be growing from a small ship with every step of this process. A typical fishing ship had a crew of less than a 12 and was probably less than 30 ft in length with most of the space being devoted to storing nets (when not on the arms) and fish.

[The Jew]

I have a vague feelign that both sides are right. That these books are full of inconsistencies and errors. That one person wrote one passage with one set of assumptions, while another writer wrote another with a different set of assumptions. Most times I understand the need to stick with the precedent. But if their is mass confusion and disagreement over an issue this is a good time to rewrite it. Invariably the Atlas with be adding and changing material.

So heres a different question. What do people think would make a more interesting game world and culture. Rrujik with or without raiding parties?

[Danip]

Scratching my head....
Have realism and the BR naval system ever really worked well together? The size and cost of navies in 2e and 3e seems to be built to mesh with the abstract unit system. With a BR unit ~200 people, the fact that even small Earth caravel/cog/galleon ships can cram in alot of people, and most BR realms having fewer than 20 land units, then the inescapable game balancing mechanic is that BR realm navies are small.
Some nation's guilders could be responsible for doubling the number of ships in Cerelia, but often the ships of the guilder and the realm are the same, just under leasing/borrowing/emergency agreements. Cerelia just doesnt have many ship units available.

This doesnt mesh well with our ideas/analogies of historical Earth navies. A few historical examples will suffice; the vikings laid seige to the fortified bridges of Paris for ten months with 700+ viking ships(knarrs, drakkars, etc), the Duke of Normandy called up hundreds of his vassals ships to become the King of England, any historical painting you have seen of an old port bristling with masts, and etc.

This also does not mesh well with our poetic and heroic storytelling as DMs and PCs. If the great Brecht navy of Muden is less than ten sizable ship units, then who the hell are all those random pirates that ocean going PCs always seem to run into?! If you play with the strict definition that a full guild level represents 100% of all trade and economic activity (IMO too strict in Brechtur), then all oceangoing ships are accounted for. The seas of Cerelia are almost deserted of ships. Your chances of meeting another vessel, much less a nasty pirate, are much smaller than on Earth's seas of old (which were not that dense). Indeed almost no navy in Cerelia has enough ships to blockade a single port, much less patrol their entire coast.

However, the cost and capabilities of the BR ship units are well matched with the domain system and army sizes and costs. Not perfect as this discussion has shown, but within a factor of ten for sure.

The unimpressive navies of Cerelia has created a houserule in my sea-going heavy campaign.
Please ignore the DM waving his hands....
If the BR ship unit is well balanced, why not just say that a BR "ship" actually represents several ships of that class? [Or a small fleet with ships of the named class as the main force?] While a full unit of 200 cavalry and horses might fit on a certain historical ship, the domain system doesnt mention logistics. The exact number of historical cogs and caravels needed to carry X units cant be calculated with the domain system. The GB capacity of ships is also a vague abstraction. 1GB of pepper (~2000lbs) could fit in a largeish rowboat. There is room for interpetation.

We havent exactly worked out what the ship unit to ship multiplier is so our DMs hands arnt tied. 2 or 3 at least...

A ship multiplier factor does introduce some problems:
Each individual ship GB cost does go down. If a non-regent PCs want a ship, what is the cost in gp? A little more DM hand waving, and the fact that a GB is just an abtract amount of goods and services surplus over a larger tax base, is needed to keep a single ship cost up in gp.

But coupled with the idea that a (6) guild in a (6) province, doesnt actually own and run every ship, shop, or shipper in a port town, you can once again people the seas of Cerelia with a more flavorful number of ships. We did this so that adventure level/individual person description and realism did not suffer because of the domain naval system. When a 7th level party captures or sinks a caravel, should the enemy realm lose 1/4 of their navy?[possible...fireball rules!]

I bring this up no so much to recommend a wholesale change of the domain naval system, just to point out that perhaps too much realism and accounting have entered this conversation about changing what is at heart an abstract and unrealistic system.

If anyone has side comments about our ship multiplier or their campaign's solution to the paltry number of individual ships available for adventures, they are welcome too.

[irdeggman]

Danip,

That was actually something else I was going to post. Specifically in relation to the longships. That is a single naval longship actually represented a large number of much sammer vessels that had a collective value equal to that of the unit. Makes it much easier to explain how the Vos could do so much piracy with so few resources available - and how they gained a Zebec from the Khinasi. Now this does pose a problem when trying to determine domain maintenance What it would essentially do is insert a "loop hole" that allows players to find a way to bypass havingmainetence for ships. "What do you mean maintence? I'm moving my cargo with the existing fishing fleet, they are so small that they have no maintenance involved."

Looking over the Highlands, again. Yes it is full of inconsitencies. I think that (I'll have to check again) that most references to raiders are in the past tence. This could be used to insert some sort of consitency since the last reference to wars and overt fighting between tribes (in the text early on that describes teh race as a whole (pg 7-9)) ties these events in to the fall of the Empire. That is after the fall the Rjurik became more diplomatic and less willling to engage in wholesale wars, unless invaded. Reference to raiders could be attributed to legends or individuals outside of society. Saying that the Rjurik are not raiders nor pirates is a statement at the broadest level - that is the race as a whole, it is not supposed to be interpreted as no Rjuirik is a raider or pirate. There are always individuals who don't follow the "rules of society". And just as there are Khinasi wizards who haven't taken the "oaths" the Rjuirk raiders and pirates could just as easily be considered outcasts and criminals by the remaining members of society (especially the druids {aka the keepers of the law, the Rjurik druids owe their loyalty first to the people even before Erik}).

[graham anderson]

right I think that most ships are not under the control of regents but independent traders and fishermen. That being said where do they get their ships in the rjurik highlands they are not going to be able to buy them from the few shipyards.

I will try and bring us back to the point I was making before that clicker built ship should not require a shipyard.

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

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> irdeggman wrote:

>...

>Looking over the Highlands, again. Yes it is full of inconsitencies. I think that (I`ll have to check again) that most references to raiders are in the past tence. This could be used to insert some sort of consitency since the last reference to wars and overt fighting between tribes (in the text early on that describes teh race as a whole (pg 7-9)) ties these events in to the fall of the Empire. That is after the fall the Rjurik became more diplomatic and less willling to engage in wholesale wars, unless invaded. Reference to raiders could be attributed to legends or individuals outside of society. Saying that the Rjurik are not raiders nor pirates is a statement at the broadest level - that is the race as a whole, it is not supposed to be interpreted as no Rjuirik is a raider or pirate. There are always individuals who don`t follow the "rules of society". And just as there are Khinasi wizards who haven`t taken the "oaths" the Rjuirk raiders and pirates could just as e

> asily be considered outcasts and criminals by the remaining members of society (especially the druids {aka the keepers of the law, the Rjurik druids owe their loyalty first to the people even before Erik}).

>

Khinasi Wizards who not take the oaths are extremely rare individuals.

Rjurik Raiders must be more numerous, be it because they exist in

numbers large enough to form an army unit, or simply to be able to

navigate ships.



The Sons of Hjalsone (mentioned in the PS of Stjordvik) could for

example use raiding to finance their secret war against the Anuirean

rule in Dhoesone.



Druids might see Raiders as outcasts who prey on other Rjurik - however

Raiders who raid the (richer) Anuirean coastline not only fight against

an ancient enemy, but also against a whole culture who abuses and

destroys the land beyond anything that would be acceptable to the

Druids, e.g. the deforestation of Alamie as mentioned in the PS of Talinie.



And don´t forget the raider lord who rules as Jarl of Hjorig in Brechtür.

bye

Michael

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by graham anderson@Feb 4 2005, 10:00 AM
right I think that most ships are not under the control of regents but independent traders and fishermen. That being said where do they get their ships in the rjurik highlands they are not going to be able to buy them from the few shipyards.

How are independent fishermen going to afford the cost of a knarr?

Using the ply trade rules from the BRCS-playtest (basically a simplified version of the profession skill check with modifiers for province level – a 1st level expert fisherman with 4 ranks in profession (fisher) could make 8 gp in a month (assuming a level 4 province –that is 24 gp in a season (3 months). The cost of a knarr (from the BRCS-playtest) is 6 GB (roughly 12,000 gp (2,000 gp/GB)). Maintenance costs for a ship are Knarr (3000 gp per year active, or 750 gp per season) when active. Why have a fishing vessel if it is not active?

So basically there is no way a commoner fisherman can own and operate a “standard” knarr as a fishing vessel. Again it backs up by opinion on there being 2 different types of knarrs, the standard/domain level knarr and the smaller personal level one. Both referred to as the same thing.

It is important to remember that the domain level of play is drastically higher level then the personal one. Which is why income and expenses are measure in GB vice gp. A non-regent just doesn’t generate income in the same range as does a regent. If you try to treat the two as the same it will lead to the confusion of level of play that has started this entire discussion, IMO.

A fisherman has small (relatively) dockside stand (or even a small store) that he sells his catch. A regent has sponsored (and gets a cut of profit from) many waterfront stand or shops and hence is profit (income and expenses) are measured in a larger scale. Only regents generate income routinely on the GB scale.

[ConjurerDragon]

"irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

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>

> irdeggman wrote:

> QUOTE (graham anderson @ Feb 4 2005, 10:00 AM) right I think that most ships are not under the control of regents but independent traders and fishermen. That being said where do they get their ships in the rjurik highlands they are not going to be able to buy them from the few shipyards.

> -----------------------------

> How are independent fishermen going to afford the cost of a knarr?

> Using the ply trade rules from the BRCS-playtest (basically a simplified version of the profession skill check with modifiers for province level – a 1st level expert fisherman with 4 ranks in profession (fisher) could make 8 gp in a month (assuming a level 4 province –that is 24 gp in a season (3 months). The cost of a knarr (from the BRCS-playtest) is 6 GB (roughly 12,000 gp (2,000 gp/GB)). Maintenance costs for a ship are Knarr (3000 gp per year active, or 750 gp per season) when active. Why have a fishing vessel if it is not active?

>

> So basically there is no way a commoner fisherman can own and operate a “standard” knarr as a fishing vessel. Again it backs up by opinion on there being 2 different types of knarrs, the standard/domain level knarr and the smaller personal level one. Both referred to as the same thing.

>

> It is important to remember that the domain level of play is drastically higher level then the personal one. Which is why income and expenses are measure in GB vice gp. A non-regent just doesn’t generate income in the same range as does a regent. If you try to treat the two as the same it will lead to the confusion of level of play that has started this entire discussion, IMO.

>

> A fisherman has small (relatively) dockside stand (or even a small store) that he sells his catch. A regent has sponsored (and gets a cut of profit from) many waterfront stand or shops and hence is profit (income and expenses) are measured in a larger scale. Only regents generate income routinely on the GB scale.



The question would be would it just be ONE fisherman plying his trade?

A knarr is a boat which has not only sails but also oars and needs several hands to maneuver. So there are more than just one man. Are these all "fisherman" who would all ply their trade and so lead to a multiple of your calculation for one fisherman?

Or do you want to state that only ONE Fisherman could ply trade with a knarr, e.g. only the CAPTAIN of a knarr is the NPC with Profession (Fisher)?



IMO I see a knarr being operated by several fisherman working as crew and sharing the catchs profits, resulting in multiples of ply trade.

bye

Michael

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon@Feb 5 2005, 03:40 PM
The question would be would it just be ONE fisherman plying his trade?

A knarr is a boat which has not only sails but also oars and needs several hands to maneuver. So there are more than just one man. Are these all "fisherman" who would all ply their trade and so lead to a multiple of your calculation for one fisherman?

Or do you want to state that only ONE Fisherman could ply trade with a knarr, e.g. only the CAPTAIN of a knarr is the NPC with Profession (Fisher)?



IMO I see a knarr being operated by several fisherman working as crew and sharing the catchs profits, resulting in multiples of ply trade.

bye

Michael

Good point.

Let&#39;s then multiply the number by 12 (a more typical number for a fishing vessel). So the number still comes out to roughly 96 gp per month (or 288 gp per season) with maintence costs of 750 gp per season they are still way short.

In order to just cover the maintenance costs the crew size would have to be at least 32.

How many would it take to be able to afford the 12,000 gp initial cost at a personal income rate of 8 gp per month or 24 gp per season? That is not even counting the costs of building/buying housing and such.

Again the scale puts things way out of reach if the standard Knarr is what is being used.

Or are you going to say that the full 200 members of the military unit it can carry is in actuality the crew of the ship when not on military actions?