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Thread: Ships?

  1. #31
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Are you sure you are not talking about the Vos?


    Rjurik Highlands pg 4 “The Rjuvan were a tough, semi-nomadic race who lived in the wild forests and plains of Aduira, honing their skills as herdsmen, hunters and warriors. Though proud of their ancient lands and reluctant to leave them, the threat of the Shadow forced them to migrate north away fro the growing danger.”

    {About their ancestry before resettling in the Highlands}.

    Pg 11 “Coastal-dwelling Rjurik live in small communities of no more than a hundred individuals. They make their living as fisherfolk, venturing out into the sea in knars or other small fishing vessels with nets to bring in great hauls of hake, cod, and salmon from the frigid waters of the tael Firth and the Sea of Storms. . .”

    Pg 13 “ Rjurik are honorable warriors who favor honest conflict between individuals over massive, bloody warfare.” {Doesn’t sound like the definition of skilled raiders to me.}

    I can’t find the quote I saw this morning but it basically said that the Highlands had the largest stretch of coast in Anuire but essentially had a non-existent naval force.


    I tend to have problems with Rjurik building any large quantity of ships since it involves the felling of trees in order to do so. Being as close to nature and preservationists as they are it seems just not quite right for them to build shipyards and the like or to rely on deforestation in order to make a living. Another reason that, IMO, there are a relatively low number of guilds in the Highlands.

    There is a big difference between being skilled fisherman and skilled seamen. Fisherman generally dealing with smaller vessels and fewer crew and likewise not dealing with large storms and the like.
    Duane Eggert

  2. #32
    Senior Member Thomas_Percy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by irdeggman@Jan 31 2005, 11:41 PM
    I tend to have problems with Rjurik building any large quantity of ships since it involves the felling of trees in order to do so.* Being as close to nature and preservationists as they are it seems just not quite right for them to build shipyards and the like or to rely on deforestation in order to make a living.
    To be a nature keeper doesn't mean to negate law of the nature.
    If keepers of the nature can't cut trees, they can't hunting too. And the birds can't build a nests from the twigs & stalks of grass.
    Imho to be a keeper of the nautre means to obey they laws, use it (even hunt) to live.

  3. #33
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Thomas_Percy+Feb 1 2005, 06:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Thomas_Percy @ Feb 1 2005, 06:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-irdeggman@Jan 31 2005, 11:41 PM
    I tend to have problems with Rjurik building any large quantity of ships since it involves the felling of trees in order to do so.* Being as close to nature and preservationists as they are it seems just not quite right for them to build shipyards and the like or to rely on deforestation in order to make a living.
    To be a nature keeper doesn&#39;t mean to negate law of the nature.
    If keepers of the nature can&#39;t cut trees, they can&#39;t hunting too. And the birds can&#39;t build a nests from the twigs & stalks of grass.
    Imho to be a keeper of the nautre means to obey they laws, use it (even hunt) to live. [/b][/quote]
    There is a difference between taking what you need to survive and exploiting the land.

    Anything that borders on deforestation (used in this context I refer to wide spread, not clearing out some forests to make small areas for animal husbandry (raising) or small scale farming) is something that Erik would definitely frown on. The reason that the elves didn&#39;t immediately attack the Rjurvan is that they cared for the land, but the text goes on to describe that "they were humans though" and then came the war.

    Clearing out sufficient forests to make a shipyard and construct ships has crossed the line, IMO. Clearing enough trees to make small fishing boats is another matter entirely.

    Would a druid allow a group of creatures to clear out a large area of forest in order to make large buildings and structures (developed ports, shipyards, large scale ormass produced vessels)? Would a druid allow a clearing of some area of forests in order to either thin it out or to start some form of agriculture?

    The intent is probably the key factor here. Since druids are the keepers of the law in the Highlands that is the real deciding factor in how things are perceived as a culture.
    Duane Eggert

  4. #34
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    irdeggman schrieb:



    >This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

    > You can view the entire thread at:

    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...ST&f=36&t=2961

    >

    > irdeggman wrote:

    > Are you sure you are not talking about the Vos?

    >Rjurik Highlands pg 4 “The Rjuvan were a tough, semi-nomadic race who lived in the wild forests and plains of Aduira, honing their skills as herdsmen, hunters and warriors. Though proud of their ancient lands and reluctant to leave them, the threat of the Shadow forced them to migrate north away fro the growing danger.”

    >{About their ancestry before resettling in the Highlands}.

    >Pg 11 “Coastal-dwelling Rjurik live in small communities of no more than a hundred individuals. They make their living as fisherfolk, venturing out into the sea in knars or other small fishing vessels with nets to bring in great hauls of hake, cod, and salmon from the frigid waters of the tael Firth and the Sea of Storms. . .”

    >Pg 13 “ Rjurik are honorable warriors who favor honest conflict between individuals over massive, bloody warfare.” {Doesn’t sound like the definition of skilled raiders to me.}

    >I can’t find the quote I saw this morning but it basically said that the Highlands had the largest stretch of coast in Anuire but essentially had a non-existent naval force.

    >I tend to have problems with Rjurik building any large quantity of ships since it involves the felling of trees in order to do so. Being as close to nature and preservationists as they are it seems just not quite right for them to build shipyards and the like or to rely on deforestation in order to make a living. Another reason that, IMO, there are a relatively low number of guilds in the Highlands.

    >

    There are a few hints that the Rjuven are good seafarers.

    The 2E Atlas of Cerilia on the back gives a map where the Rjuven did not

    cross the straits of Aerele on land, but crossed the Tael Firth, the Sea

    of Storms when moving from Aduria - not a small task with a whole

    population of women and children. The Vos however DID use the straits

    just like the Andu and crossed only a very narrow body of water.



    Like the Brecht and unlike the Anuireans the Rjurik actually have

    Marines as a 2E warcard so they have a unit skilled in fighting onboard

    a ship.



    Why do you imply deforestation to build ships? They would of course not

    completely chop down an entire wood (just as the small story in the

    Rjurik Highlands book warns to do!) but sparingly chop down trees and

    immediately plant new seedlings so that (unlike in Alamie) the forest

    will not vanish but will regrow.



    Guilds also need not live on deforestation - a guild represents anything

    that makes money so they could gather wild strawberries, or the rare

    herbs mentioned in the "King of the Giantdowns" book ;-)



    Navigating the Sea of Storms without a sextant (which only the Brecht

    have) is no easy task even for fisherman. It is not far from there to

    our own Vikings, to Raiders (the whole country of Rjuvik is populated by

    ex-searaiders).

    bye

    Michael

  5. #35
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    I think the Rjurik regents having small standing fleets makes sense: if they are raiders, they don&#39;t need the kinds of fleets necessary for conquest, only for hit-and-run raids. 1-3 longships is big enough for a raiding fleet, and on par with early Viking raids in Earth&#39;s history. Making a ship here and there shouldn&#39;t lead to widescale deforestation; building a large invasion fleet capable of carrying an entire army is a different matter. Good reason why there aren&#39;t any large standing Rjurik fleets.

    Historically, I believe there was some large-scale deforestation of Scandanavia in the later Viking era, because they went from small-scale raiding to large-scale conquest as the Vikings grew fat on their earlier successes. If we maintain a comparison between Rjurik and the early Vikings, though, things seem to correlate fairly well. The reality may be that the Druids&#39; power and the nature-reverence of Erik restricts the possible ambitions of Rjurik jarls and kings in expanding their raids to full-scale invasion.

    As far as shipyards go, I think it&#39;s important to maintain an across-the-board rule for ship-building and shipyard requirements. As longships are pretty cheap, the shipyard requirements will be quite low, and mainly represent the most basic of facilities: skilled labor and necessary raw materials, and the additional costs of gaining these resources with minimal ecological impact. Seems pretty reasonable IMO.

    Osprey

  6. #36
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    The Rjurik are more closely based on the Celts than the Scandavians and Norse. hence the importance of bards and druids to their culture.

    There is nothing written to imply that the Rjurik are in fact raiders, while the Vos on the contrary thrive on taking what they want.

    Combine this fact (and the text I have cited - nothing implied here and definitely not based on art work) with the absolute lack of any naval forces in the Highlands it is pretty obvious they are not a naval force in any way shape or form.

    The Rjurik have the absolute smallest navy of any land in Anuire and that is by far. The next closest are the Vos and they ahve more than double the Rjurik fleet.

    Again being good fishermen doesn&#39;t make them good naval miltary. I am at a loss to explain the marine unit, but there are a number of other inconsistencies in the 2nd ed products and that is a single error, regardless as to how many crdss were printed.
    Duane Eggert

  7. #37
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    It might be an issue of miscommunication between the designers or simply the editor was sloppy.

  8. #38
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    "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> schrieb:

    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

    > You can view the entire thread at:

    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...ST&f=36&t=2961

    >

    > irdeggman wrote:

    > The Rjurik are more closely based on the Celts than the Scandavians and Norse. hence the importance of bards and druids to their culture.

    > There is nothing written to imply that the Rjurik are in fact raiders, while the Vos on the contrary thrive on taking what they want.





    Except again for example the 2E warcard with "Rjuvik Raiders" after I already mentioned the Rjurik Marines warcard.

    Or the passage on p. 25 of the "Rjurik Highlands" about the jarldom of Rjuvik "...Fulgar the Bold roamed the land, preying on merchants and travelers, and wandering the oceans, leading a small fleet of sea reavers in raids on mercantile shipping and coastal villages in Rjurik and Anuirean Kingdoms..." and mentions later "...items gained through illegal raids on other kingdoms..."



    Then in the Players Secrets of Stjordvik (p. 8) who mention raids by Rjuvik both over land and boarded on their longships for attacks on Hollenvik. The Jarl of Yvarre once raided with 6 Longships and was defeated by Stjordvik defences aided by an Anuirean merchantman armed with ballistae.



    And even "aviking" is mentioned in that Fulgar (of Rjuvik) officially forbids the raiding (and is not really successfull doing so) to raise his status and allow him to establish trade. So I would say that, as has been mentioned more than once, the Rjurik as any other human nation, are not based on one culture alone, neither Celt nor Vikings, but are an amalgam who might use elements of both cultures and that raiding exists.

    bye

    Michael

  9. #39
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    The Rjurik are more closely based on the Celts than the Scandavians and Norse. hence the importance of bards and druids to their culture
    Except Rich Baker has explicitly said that the Rjurik are most strongly based on the Norse, as their nomenclature (personal & place names, lords called jarls, etc.) also suggests.

    Druids and nature reverence seem to be primarily Celtic in flavor, I agree there.
    Bards are Skalds in Rjurik, a specifically Norse name and flavor (skald is Old Norse name for poets in the Viking era). The more typical Bards, which ARE strongly Celtic-based, are far more typical in Anuire than Rjurik.

    I don&#39;t mean to be picky here, just wanted to put in a plug for how Nordic the Rjurik have always seemed to me. I still think the Rjurik as sometime-raiders makes a lot of sense, and honestly don&#39;t see any great conflict between this fact and the tiny size of Rjurik navies.

  10. #40
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Sorry to disagree while the names are closer to Norse the culture is very much closer to that of the Celts.

    In fact the 2nd ed AD&D book "Celts - Campaign Sourcebook" by Graeme Davis published in 1992 (BR setting was published in 1995) absolutely has the Celtic culture almost identical to that of the Rjurik. Especially the role of druids and bards. In fact the book (a green cover one) had Character Gifts which were almost exactly copied in BR and translated into Special Dooms. Heck the Celtics Campaign Sourcebook had a tremendous influence on Cerilian elves also. Find a copy of the book and you will see what I&#39;m talking about as far as the TSR stand on this issue. I really think Rich was talking about names and such since things were deliberately combined in order to make them unique for BR.

    The biggest cultural difference between the Rjurik and Celts, which is closer to the Norse, is the role of women. The Rjurik "prefer" their women to tend to the young and stay at home. The Celtic women were the equal of the men and held similar status in their culture.

    Another good RPG oriented source book is the Celtic Age by Avalanche press. Again very strong similarities can be gleened for the Rjurik.

    The Norse were adventurers and discoverers, although they didn&#39;t keep good records (or much of any for that matter). The Rjurik are home and hearth. Defend the clan first, fight second, but never back down from a battle if necessary.

    The only thing Norse about Rjurik bards is the name. Traditional D&D bards are not based very much on the Celtic ones. Celtic bards were the keepers of the history and as such were protected in society they were honor bound to be neutral in matters and deliver messages in an exact manner - the Celts were an oral reliance society which is why we don&#39;t have near as much information about them as we should and most of that is based on misconceptions. (Awful similar to the Rjurik bards). Again check out the Celtic Campaign Sourcebook for the "official" 2nd ed opinon of Celtic bards in D&D.
    Duane Eggert

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