Ships?

[Justinius_ExMortis]

Alot of good points have been brought up through out this thread. Let me recap and reply.

1. 2.5 GB of production capability is an excellent balance for producing ships. Keep in mind that you can have all the production capability in the world and it doesn't mean squat you haven't the money to spend. Also allowing for a goodly sized port to be capable of producing Galleons is a godsend in so much as balancing rules and reason. As we all know, rules and reason rarely go hand in hand.

2. 30% to 60% mark up on selling a ship is not only appropriate based on you have doing the negotiating but also historically accurate. Ships were a must have in the ancient world for any coastal power and very could produce enough of their own to really meet the demand at all times. This of course drove the price up, high demand and low production always makes a mint, so to speak. When it comes to the ancient world no price is set in stone. Negotiation is half the fun when it comes to hiring mercenaries, master builders, and buying the various necessities of the realm. I play a guilder by the way, surprising isn't it?

3. Magic users and crushing fleets. Interesting concept, how exactly do you suggest that a world of 2nd and 3rd level characters destroy entire fleets with a wave of their hands? You're average BR campaign, unless you plan to go after the Gorgon is only going to range between first and tenth level. Considering the difference betwen spell area of effects and the distances involved in even ancient naval combat you'll fine that few tenth level casters can really effectively do anything more than burn a few ships, the equivalent of perhaps a single hit on vessels caught in the Area of effect of a spell. Also, re-read control weather. A ship killer that spell is not. Storm of Vengeance on the other hand....but again, consider level restraints. Besides, what's wrong with a really high level wizard standing on the cliff side, passing his steely gaze over the arrogant lords expensive fleet and teaching him a thing or two about interupting grouchy mages in the middle of their studies with something mundane like a war?

4. Ship killing monsters are extremely rare. Big undersea monsters, just like their land based couter parts tend to be blooded scions of Azrai, ex. the Sea Serpent. Besides look at nature, there are few ship killing sea creatures that are anywhere near the surface of the ocean and we've only recently found proof that the big ship killers of the deep deep sea actually exist.


That pretty much covers what I was thinking about. A powerful navy is hard to come by but is also a powerful weapon against any coastal province and only in rare circumstances is the coin ever wasted in the production of a powerful war fleet. As a side note, the Zebec stats need a serious overhaul.

Justin

"Stand before an army by yourself, folly. Fall before an army and inspire the thousands at your back, greatness."

"Heroes; romantic, legendary, glorious...tragic. Better a farmer who dies old and in bed then a hero."

[graham anderson]

What about longships and their like they are klinker build and shouldn't realy require a shipyard. Meaning the poorer rjurik and vos nations dont have to pay to maintain a shipyard.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by graham anderson@Jan 29 2005, 02:21 PM
What about longships and their like they are klinker build and shouldn't realy require a shipyard. Meaning the poorer rjurik and vos nations dont have to pay to maintain a shipyard.

I have to disagree.

Sure we can just give away freebees but there is supposed to be some kind of trade off here. Long ships don't require much in the way of a shipyard to construct. Pretty much a shipyard in name only. There is supposed to be tradeoffs for everythng done. The Vos and Rjurik weren't much in the way of naval powers anyway so by tying up resources in order to make the small ships they do is a very reasonable thing to do. If not then every race will have very large navies and that is just not the intent or concept of BR.

[graham anderson]

The Vos and Rjurik weren't much in the way of naval powers anyway so by tying up resources in order to make the small ships they do is a very reasonable thing to do. If not then every race will have very large navies and that is just not the intent or concept of BR.

I think that the rjurik as seafarers and raiders have far to few ships and requiring a shipyard just makes it even more difficult. By making longships and other klinker built ships not require a shipyard a rjurik nation could build a ship when they want one something quite realistic. You could make it that you need certain knowledge to do it so it is only available for the rjurik and vos. The rjurik should have a lot of longships but a fleet of longships are not a match for a fleet of galleys or caravels.

[Green Knight]

Could someone pleas tell me why you need a "Shipyard" to build ships?

This sounds pretty strange - you don't need Forges to make weapons and armor, nor do you need Horse Pens to recruit cavalry...

Would it not be sufficient with a province level requirement? Provinces 4+ are considered ports and should have the ability to build ships! Perhaps a province 7+ would be needed for the big ones, like galleons and zebecs, but for the rest?

B

[Angelbialaska]

I personally feel that shipyards and ports should be free too, automatically gained when you reach a level 4 province. It would relieve some of the harder hit provinces of their money trouble.

Maybe have ports being something that can be constructed in lower level provinces, and pay upkeep there, but when you reach a level 4, the shipyard and port can cover its own costs?

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by Angelbialaska@Jan 30 2005, 05:09 PM
Maybe have ports being something that can be constructed in lower level provinces, and pay upkeep there, but when you reach a level 4, the shipyard and port can cover its own costs?

That is exactly how I do it, and it works well enough! Let's try to keep the number of structures needed to do stuff at a minimum - it reminds me too much of computer games I've played in the past.

B

[graham anderson]

Larger ships galleons in particular needed shipyards due to their size and the difficultys of constructing them. Longships and other klinker built ships didn't require a shipyard. An example being somtimes to make a galleon they would dam up part of a river dry it out and built the galleon in a large frame then when the ship was ready they would break the dam letting in the water to float the ship which is no small task and the ship yards in britain were large as you needed a wide veriaty of craftsmen. On the other hand my neighbour in shetland makes klinker built boats and he does it on his own it doesn't take very long and he doesn't need any other workers to help him. This is partly a matter of scale but also of the techniques used in the construction.

There were few places that could make a galleon in britain. So I can see a place for a shipyard for making larger ships and non klinker built ships. I dont mind the port either with it being more than a bit of fishing and a few trade ships and more of a trade hub or militery base. The ports should be covered by taxes on the trade routes it generates.

[irdeggman]

From Rjurik Highlands:
Total navies: 1 Knarr, 5 Longships

Halskapa
1 Knarr, 1 Longship

Rjuvik
1 Longship

Svinik
1 Longship

Hogunmark
1 Longship

Hjolvar
1 Longship

Trade Routes:
Skapa Hjarring and Seasedge (sea trade route)
Skapa Hjarring and Anuire (sea trade route)
Yvarre and Nolien (sea trade route)
Leivika to Southern Anuire* (sea trade route)
Djaalfund and the Brecht Lands* (sea trade route)
Hjolvar* and Kvigmarheim (sea trade route)
*Specific location not listed in Rjurik Highlands

No documented land trade routes.

From Tribes of the Heartless Wastes:
Total Navies: 5 Drakkars, 7 Longships, 1 Zebec

Melyy
1 Longship

Yeninskiy
3 Drakkars, 1 Zebec, 2 Longships

Velenoye
2 Drakkar, 3 Longships

Zoloskaya
1 Drakkar, 1 Longship

No documented trade routes (land or sea)


So pretty much in the 2nd ed material neither the Rjurik nor the Vos were much in the way of sea powers – and the Vos’ acquisition of the Zebec was pretty obviously from raiding and piracy. Now allowing “free” ships just sort of bypasses the power structure of the 2nd ed material. Heck looking over the maps the level 4 coastal provinces in Rjurik were mostly plains and mtns (not many trees there) while the Vos had other issues.


Things I see changing or conceptually how they should be IMO:

We need to restore the 2nd ed rule that a coastal province can support as many sea trade routes as it can land trade routes. {Helps with places like Ilien that need the income.}

A coastal province with a rating of 4 (or more) can serve as a port but not a seaport. A port counts as a place where ships can embark and debark, troops can land, etc. But maintenance and extra income is non-existent in an undeveloped port. An undeveloped port can support a number of ships equal to its province rating in total cargo and troop capacity (add the two together) at a given time.

A seaport (or developed port that counts as an asset) and is necessary to have any sea trade routes. A developed port has a built up infrastructure designed to move cargo and ship it out. Developed ports also have sufficient infrastructure to provide for minor routine maintenance on ships. {IMO this developed port is significant, because it gives a target for raiding and destroying thus reducing the economy of a province. Historically how many times were ports burned to the ground and thus wrecking havoc on the country’s economy or to prevent their falling into the hands of the enemy? If this isn’t done then there is no incentive for raiding, pillaging and burning a port since it automatically springs back to life regardless of what happens.} A developed port can support a number of ships equal to 10 times its province rating in total cargo and troop capacity (add the two together) at a given time.

A shipyard is necessary to construct certain types of ships. Others can be constructed in a port (developed or undeveloped). Ships that have a missile rating, an attack rating (due to ramming), a combined cargo and troop capacity of 3GB or more requires a shipyard of the appropriate level to support construction. A shipyard is also required to make any improvements to a ship (for example the result of training, research, etc.) or repair more than 1 point of hull damage. A shipyard adds its rating to the province rating to determine the number of ships that can be supported at that port (see above). {I’d like to impose an additional level that specifies if it has a troop rating (i.e., bunks). But that would entail doing some other things like changing capacities for certain ships to a cargo rating or a bunk rating (but not both) – this is different than the 2nd ratings but makes more sense IMO. This is because if a ship can support a single bunk that means it can carry a unit of troops which is roughly the equivalent of 200 well equipped men, that is just no longer a simple ship, IMO. Cargo can very based on what is being carried but people take up so much room regardless. This might not be worth the effort of detail to do though and may simply just end up cluttering up the system.}

Increase construction capability of shipyards to less than 2.5 times the shipyard level. Although a case could be made for making this 3 times instead, specifically to address Zebecs.

Allow an option to build up a shipyard to exceed the province rating, albeit at an increased cost (and higher maintenance cost since it is similar to raising a province’s level above its normal level of self-support). Perhaps something along the lines of 50% increase in build and maintenance costs per level above the province level with a limit of 2 above.

[graham anderson]

So pretty much in the 2nd ed material neither the Rjurik nor the Vos were much in the way of sea powers – and the Vos’ acquisition of the Zebec was pretty obviously from raiding and piracy. Now allowing “free” ships just sort of bypasses the power structure of the 2nd ed material. Heck looking over the maps the level 4 coastal provinces in Rjurik were mostly plains and mtns (not many trees there) while the Vos had other issues.

The rjurik are mentioned as skilled seamen and raiders. I amn't advocating free ships but that klinker guilt ships do not require a shipyard. I would be happy with them requiring a port to construct instead.