>OK, I'm going to point out where my feelings on this differ from >yours,
but I'm not trying to argue that mine are right and yours >wrong, just that
their different,

Oh goodie! I got a live one here! :)

>and I'm trying to get the differences sorted out in my
>head. First, I never really saw the goblins as semi-nomadic, but >more sort
of 'pick-a-cave-and-defend-it' sorts (unless the odds >were too highly
against them).

I was more orientating towards more the hunting culture, as you've already
mentioned... I really wanted to give them - at least originally - a more
wolf-like outlook: and while wolves _do_ take to a den from time to time,
they can cover a _HUGE_ amount of ground, following thier prey (for example,
carabou - aargh, excuse my spelling butchery...)

>Of course, a semi-nomadic lifestyle makes sense for a
>hunting culture; unless the land was unusually rich, you would >eventually
hunt out the local area, and have to move on to find >new game.

Yup, like I said.

>However, such a lifestyle has certain inherent dangers (and >Cerilia has
numberous creatures who can easily turn the tables >on hunters and hunt

True; but I think that preadators won't hunt other prey; I'm also speaking
of a time long long _long_ ago, when most of Cerilia was a gignormous
But still, you are right; in a fantasy world, there are a heck of a lot of
preadators (and prey) out there that are just deadly... Well, all i can say
is that I protray my world where such things as, say, oh, land sharks are
_Very_ rare indeed.
Also, maybe this points to why we have Goblin Wolfriders, no?

and as such I can't really see the goblins getting into conflict with the

Well, I imagined the Goblin civilization advancing - and growing - fairly
fast, but without as much agrulture as, say, humans. I envisioned them with
a more carnivourous diet.
Anyway, I imagine possibilities like slash-and-burn farming (for plains to
move more freely in & raise cattle), and the occassional raid on the Elves
for slaves (and sarifices for thier god)... Neither of which I'd imaginge
the Elves would want.

However, I do have to agree with some of your views concerning the ecology
and goblin growth... I think you and I are in agreement on how things may
have happened, just differing on the reasons.

>They mostly fought with each other at first, but soon the rising >power of
the witch-shamans caused power to be concentrated >around a few of the old
tribal "clans." From such was born the >Goblin Kingdoms.

Hey, this sounds about right. However, I do believe that even these Goblin
Kingdoms probably fought each other, in a limited fashon - perhaps (using
the aztek image) "cerimonial wars" - pre-planned things where each side
fought to capture warriors and glory for thier respective kingdoms, and for
sacrifice to thier gods.

some cool ideas here; I might have to think about introducing some of

>The power of the Goblin Kings is based on how much land he has
>in agriculture (and thus how many warriors he can support), >while that
very agriculture kills the "wild" elements of the >Land that the elves need
to live.

Ok, that makes a lot of sence. Hummm...

Good stuff there; even though I don't use a "spirits granting spells" -
there was a pathleon of gods, and the "shamans" were clerics, using the
generic term. But this is my world; not yours - and your idea seems pretty
cool to me.
And I agree that the Elves probably considered the Humans the lesser of two
evils (more fool they), and sided with them to wipe out the (at that time)
faily organized goblin peoples.
Oh, and while I'm here, a quick thought: I've noticed a post comparing the
various Ceriliean Goblins, and linking them into one race, with just two
"sub-races" created by mutation. Well, we have black,white,red,yellow, etc.
humans; I don't consider any of them mutants - and so even if there is some
physical/mental diffrence, why not they be from the same species, without
mutations? (what, we looking for "X-Goblin" here?!) :)

I agree with what you say, but I also believe it just was NOT two things,
but a whole combination of factors that led to the Goblin Downfall... Not
just Azrai, not just the greed of kings and priests. War with the elves and
humans. A probably stagnat civilization. Maybe overpopulation. The
possiblity of disease from the humans (anybody thought of that one??)...
All, or maybe only one or two things led to thier downfall; but fall they

>I'm sorry, I know it's just a typo, but the "Clod Rider?" That's >GREAT!

One day I'll remember to spell, I promice... ;)
Dyletitcs of the World, Untie!

>Well, you are a pessimisitic one, aren't you? So there is no >possibility
of redemption for the goblin people?

Nonononononononononono. No. There is MOST DEFINITELY a chance of
redemption - I imagine at least *some* of the Goblin Gods are still around,
and I'd imagine that they are not too happy with thier people stolen from
under thier noses... However, any such group worshipping them would be in
serous horsepucky with goblin society at large ("Blahamesters! DESTROY
So they'd have to keep a _very_ low profile (not to mention the lack of any
help from any other people - they're "Evil Goblins", right?)
Anyway, this is a plot hook for future stuff in my world anyway. I had
originally encouraged my players to try - heavens - a Blooded Goblin Lord,
but nobody took me up on it :), so it'll remain fallow for the
time being - maybe after they rise a few levels or so...

>Whew. That was fun. Sorry I got carried away there. Where were >we?

Wow, very cool. Vorynn, hunh? I wonder...

>I very much agree with this stuff. Good point about the >wolfriders! I'll
have to keep that in mind! ;)

He he. Do that. Also, note that there are Goblin Giant Spider Riders as
well... I have still yet to explain that one, I'm thinking, tho... (ewww..
200 - goblin - unit, each riding a spider the size of a small pony... Ewww
man, can one say arichnaphobia?? I *knew* you could...)

>And I agree that the spirits/souls of the
>dead goblins go to be with "the ancestors" in the Shadow World, >and there
serve as minions for the Goblin Spirit-Deities. Perhaps >skilled shamen are
"rewarded" by serving as spirit-sources for >living goblin witch-shamen.

Hummm. Idea. Hummm (moans of mortal terror from players - "Crap! he's got
an Idea! RUN!!!) ;)

>No, but I might sneek off and try my luck somewhere else, unless >I had a
very strong reason to say (say some sort of Code of >Honor which was
important to me).

Yeah, perhaps; but Fear is also a powerful weapon, and you'd be suprised at
what it can do (better I take this crap here, it may be bad but it's a life,
and who knows what would happen to me if I ran away? Better the devil you
know than the devil you don't).
Also, remember the Goblins have fallen pretty far; and anyway, where would
they go? Evryone hates them; Elves kill them on sight, humans a close
second, and Giants eat them. At least under the yoke of someone like the
Gorgon wherethey can survive...
(MORE plot material here, hehe...)

>So yes, I think that goblins are very happy to have a
>strong leader to serve, but that there are two kinds of goblins: >the
"high" goblin, which is loyal to some of the Old Way, >including the Code of
Honor, and will remain loyal to a sworn >lord even if that lord is weak, and
the "low" goblin, who has >embraced the Goblin Dark Ages and everything it
stands for. Most >humans (and adventurers) are likely to meet only "low"
goblins >unless they travel into the remnants of the old Goblin Kingdoms.

hummm. In my game world, there IS no "high Goblin" anymore; it would take
an extrodinary leader (read: a PC) to try and ressurrect that which had been
lost - at least, lost on the contenient of Cerilia... :)

>Vastly! Can I have some more, please? I haven't had this much >fun in

Really? Well then when I have time I'll type down some of my thoughts on my
world's (hediously complex) Elven society and see what you think of

Mike Goldsworthy