Goblin Culture

[Sidhain]

On Goblins:

There is a reason Hobgoblins, Bugbears and Goblins are just "Goblins" in
Cerilia because they are ONE singular race--otherwise why didn't the
designers of BIrthright jsu tleave them under the traditional AD&D paradigm?

Secondly Culturally Goblins fill the role of barbarians since ORogs are very
civilized and organized---they replace "Orc" as the foot soldier of the
armies of "Darkness"
Considering they are creatures of Azrai. Many gamers feel the need to adapt
materialy to modern moralities, but in a world like BIrthright it's silly,
in a Fantasy environment Evil is a real thing, not just an ideal. If you
asked a medieval person if a "Faerie" was evil they's likely say no, just
mischeivious, if you asked them of "werewolves" or such they's say yes.
Looking at Goblins from out "enlightened" viewpoints is silly--they aren't
misunderstood, they are Evil--maybe not every single last one but as a race
they choose to be malicious cruel and "evil".

As a Cultrue I set them up depending on where they are located--in Rjurik
and Aneurian lands they fulfill the role of picts--savages known for
pillaging settlements etc....

In Vos and Khinasi lands they are more organized less barbaric and form a
"Ghengis Khan" type horde which lives on the run

Since most of the human cultures are based on real world cultures doing the
same for the Nonhuman races would be as easily applicable.









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[Sidhain]

>
>In fact they were generaly more educated then the Europeans, a lot more
>peaceful (at least until the crusades started, but who blames them if
>you read what was done during them) and for the rest just normal humans.
>
>So why can't we DM's do the same with goblins?
>
>I like it to make my game a little more gray, it tends to keep my
>players on their toes.



Because Goblins aren't humans, they aren't even related to humans, they are
a race corrupted totally by Azrai's influence.
That's why, sure you can do that in your version of Birthright--but you lose
the mythic elements that make Birthright appealing when you start grounding
it in real world philosophy.

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[Grimwell, Cerilian]

I think the discussion on this one is really getting good. I also think that
the idea of a "Ecology of the Cerilian Goblin" is a much better idea than a
revised Monster Manual entery.

As such, I'll pony up. I have some definite, if fragmented, ideas on how the
goblins behave in MY Cerilia work. I should have something to work with.
Give me a week or so. It's not something you just do in a night and do
right. Plus there are a couple computers in my house needing fixing and
returning to their owners (it's a curse man, a curse...).

After I get my ideas together and start sketching them out, I'll look at a
few old Dragon's for format ideas and then get it out.

One point: If I did a good job, the question would beg: Why not submit to
Dragon? Well, I think that we aren't likely to get much support from Dragon
right now. BR isn't really a focus under the current circumstances (and
that's understandable).

Plus,I don't think I have given a whole lot to the group here in a long
while, so it's my turn to give instead of just take. :)

IF you (the pleasant reader) have ideas on doing the same: PLEASE DO!!! My
interpertation should, by no means, be the final. I will do my best, and try
to make something worthy of the birthright.net web site; but if you do a
better job than I, I'm all for it as I get your work to add to mine!

It sure would be cool to see 3 or 4 of these hit the list in a week or two.
Then perhaps, some of us could revise them into one final document that
kicks hind end.


>
Grimwell, wizard of Cerilia
The Birthright Revival is NOW! :)
When you've had the best, why buy the rest?


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[Kenneth Gauck]

My conception of things at Deismaar was Homeric. Nude men in broze grieves
and brest plates, with horse hair helmets (you get the idea). Every society
retained strong elements of barbarism. The Goblins may have been behind the
curve at that point because of the oppression of the elves, and that was
their biggest problem in falling behind in technological advancement. In
the years since Deismaar, the other races have all moved towards more
advanced and learned cultures. To do this they needed to be seccure in
their homes, and engage in commerce with others. The Goblins have never
been afforded this luxury, nor in truth have they sought it out.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

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[Pieter Sleijpen]

Sidhain wrote:
>
> On Goblins:
>
> There is a reason Hobgoblins, Bugbears and Goblins are just "Goblins" in
> Cerilia because they are ONE singular race--otherwise why didn't the
> designers of BIrthright jsu tleave them under the traditional AD&D paradigm?
>
> Secondly Culturally Goblins fill the role of barbarians since ORogs are very
> civilized and organized---they replace "Orc" as the foot soldier of the
> armies of "Darkness"
> Considering they are creatures of Azrai. Many gamers feel the need to adapt
> materialy to modern moralities, but in a world like BIrthright it's silly,
> in a Fantasy environment Evil is a real thing, not just an ideal. If you
> asked a medieval person if a "Faerie" was evil they's likely say no, just
> mischeivious, if you asked them of "werewolves" or such they's say yes.
> Looking at Goblins from out "enlightened" viewpoints is silly--they aren't
> misunderstood, they are Evil--maybe not every single last one but as a race
> they choose to be malicious cruel and "evil".
>

I sense a potential flame war here :-)

What somebody thinks to be the truth, does not have to be the truth.
Sure, the Rjurik PC knows for sure all goblins and gnolls are evil. The
Khinasi ones are bit more likely to talk, but that is simply because
they are not as rash. That does not have to mean that it was that way!

Just to use your RL example: to the medieval European (say 11th century)
the Arabian were evil heretics who raped woman and sacrificed childeren
(maybe a bit exaggerated).

In fact they were generaly more educated then the Europeans, a lot more
peaceful (at least until the crusades started, but who blames them if
you read what was done during them) and for the rest just normal humans.

So why can't we DM's do the same with goblins?

I like it to make my game a little more gray, it tends to keep my
players on their toes.To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
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[Kenneth Gauck]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01BEE670.94DD2880
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I think magic use in the deep past is greatly exagerated. Perhaps what =
the humans learned from the elves by way of magic was "Control Normal =
Fires", and they were amazed. Since then magic (being the driving force =
behind all learning and technology) has advanced considerably. My =
estimation of things is that at the time of Diesmaar, spellcasting was =
limited to 5th level and castings times were ten times as long. Priest =
spells, based on smaller populations and fewer great sites, were limted =
to 4th level. Prayer was the old mainstay of the Diesmaar armies, and =
it was only at the time of the Shadow Wars that Anduiras gave his =
priests Cure Serious Wounds, that Basa=EFa gave her followers Produce =
Fire. Meaning they were new and fantastic spells.

So while I would probably argue that Goblins were at least "in the =
running" in magic aptitude, their ancient powers were not great because =
no one's were great.

I like to imagine the great advances in magical and priestly learning =
during the Empire that brought spell powers to much greater heights, =
followed by a period of stagnation, and the opening of our new era of =
renewed advancement. =20

Nevertheless there is no modern science in my campaign. Magic is the =
true learning and everything else is a fraud, consider it the reverse of =
the real world.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

PS: I am testing a medieval font, if this message is wacky or unreadble, =
let me know.

- ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01BEE670.94DD2880
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable






I think magic use in the deep past is =
greatly=20
exagerated.  Perhaps what the humans learned from the elves by way =
of magic=20
was "Control Normal Fires", and they were amazed.  Since =
then=20
magic (being the driving force behind all learning and technology) has =
advanced=20
considerably.  My estimation of things is that at the time of =
Diesmaar,=20
spellcasting was limited to 5th level and castings times were ten times =
as=20
long.  Priest spells, based on smaller populations and fewer great =
sites,=20
were limted to 4th level.  Prayer was the old mainstay of the =
Diesmaar=20
armies, and it was only at the time of the Shadow Wars that Anduiras =
gave his=20
priests Cure Serious Wounds, that Basa=EFa =
gave her followers Produce Fire.  Meaning =
they were=20
new and fantastic spells.
 
So while I would probably argue that =
Goblins were=20
at least "in the running" in magic aptitude, their ancient =
powers were=20
not great because no one's were great.
 
I like to imagine the great advances in =
magical=20
and priestly learning during the Empire that brought spell powers to =
much=20
greater heights, followed by a period of stagnation, and the opening of =
our new=20
era of renewed advancement. 
 
Nevertheless there is no modern science =
in my=20
campaign.  Magic is the true learning and everything else is a =
fraud,=20
consider it the reverse of the real world.
 
Kenneth Gauckc558382@earthlink.net
PS: I am testing a medieval font, if this message is wacky or =
unreadble,=20
let me know.

- ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01BEE670.94DD2880--
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[Chrys murphy]

Sidhain wrote:

> On Goblins:
>
> Considering they are creatures of Azrai. Many gamers feel the need to adapt
> materialy to modern moralities, but in a world like BIrthright it's silly,
> in a Fantasy environment Evil is a real thing, not just an ideal. If you
> asked a medieval person if a "Faerie" was evil they's likely say no, just
> mischeivious, if you asked them of "werewolves" or such they's say yes.
> Looking at Goblins from out "enlightened" viewpoints is silly--they aren't
> misunderstood, they are Evil--maybe not every single last one but as a race
> they choose to be malicious cruel and "evil".

This point is, I think, one of the biggest misconceptions that exist about
Cerilian Goblins.

Goblins are NOT inherently, creatures of Azrai. In fact, Goblins existed in
Cerilia Long before the arrival of the Human tribes fleeing from Azrai's
influence - and hence, Azrai and his minions in pursuit.
The Goblins had long been in conflict with the other major native races of
Cerilia - Elves and Dwarves and, due to their nature, were easily swayed to
Azrai's cause by his wily charms and promises of dominance. This led to an
uneasy alliance with the Elves who had fallen under Azrai's sway due to his
promises to rid cerilia of the invading Humans (and, ultimately, led to the
Elves changing sides when they learned of Azrai's treachery and promises to his
other minions).
Thus, whilst many people hold to the fallacy of the Goblins being creatures of
Azrai, they could not be more wrong. The Goblin races swiftly fell under Azrai's
sway upon his arrival in Cerilia and have lived under his shadow ever since;
they have a much longer history, dating back to long before Azrai's arrival and
this should be reflected in any culture created for them.
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[Sidhain]

>Thus, whilst many people hold to the fallacy of the Goblins being creatures
of
>Azrai, they could not be more wrong. The Goblin races swiftly fell under
Azrai's
>sway upon his arrival in Cerilia and have lived under his shadow ever
since;
>they have a much longer history, dating back to long before Azrai's arrival
and
>this should be reflected in any culture created for them.
>


It isn't a fallacy, whether they fell to Azrai yesterday or 2000 years ago
they are "now" Azrai's creatures.
And they fell under his influences early on before Deismaar, and therefore
have been under his Shadow for a great many years as humans reckon time and
unlike the Elves they choose to remains under the Dark Lords Shadow (or are
so corrupt they cannot be free of it)

The real problem is people are assuming Evil is just like it is here a
"choice" of people doing things we see as against our morality--and Goblins
aren't that they are thoroughly corrupted to be and do evil things, a few
exceptions might occur but the vast bulk of Goblin kind is Evil big E just
as a Demon or Devil would be Evil big E.


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[Pieter Sleijpen]

Sidhain wrote:
>
> The real problem is people are assuming Evil is just like it is here a
> "choice" of people doing things we see as against our morality--and Goblins
> aren't that they are thoroughly corrupted to be and do evil things, a few
> exceptions might occur but the vast bulk of Goblin kind is Evil big E just
> as a Demon or Devil would be Evil big E.

Is that so? Well, I know novels are not cannon, but in Greatheart is is
actually shown that goblins under the right influence can become very
nice and trustworty. Even if it is small percentage, then it still is
strange that exactly the two only surviving goblins happen to belong to
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[breye]

> It isn't a fallacy, whether they fell to Azrai yesterday or 2000 years ago
> they are "now" Azrai's creatures.
> And they fell under his influences early on before Deismaar, and therefore
> have been under his Shadow for a great many years as humans reckon time
>
> The real problem is people are assuming Evil is just like it is here a
> "choice" of people doing things we see as against our morality--and Goblins
> aren't that they are thoroughly corrupted to be and do evil things, a few
> exceptions might occur but the vast bulk of Goblin kind is Evil big E just
> as a Demon or Devil would be Evil big E.

I have to disagree with this, Demons & Devils are evil by nature, Goblins (and
by extention all other Humanoid races) are evil because that is their
environment they are born into, and outside of their culture, evil is what is
expected of them, so that is how they are treated. I have no problem with an
especially kind hearted or exceptionally dim goblin being non-evil (good might
require some unique circumstances). Goblins have been taught, not only by Azrai
but also by the elves, that the paths of evil are the most efficient for their
own survival. Corruption is not ingrained in their blood and bones, but meerly
ingrained in their society.

br
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