Bestiary notes

[Soviet]

Here are some more notes to get the Bestiary Snowball rolling:

1) if the Goblins were once a great empire, what would the Ancient Goblins be like?

2) Shadow world Aberrations:
Halflings = Derro?
Sprites,pixies, etc. = Jermaleine?
Ogres = Ogre Magi?
Elves = Dark Stalkers?

3) Meghbail using creatures?
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[Pieter Sleijpen]

Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:
>
> On Thu, 12 Aug 1999, Grimwell, Cerilian wrote:
>
> > The most important thing I have tried to keep in mind is that the Goblins
> > were once a thriving and strong culture and people. Only the combined might
> > of humans and elves could beat them down into barbarism. They still remember
> > this greatness in their stories, and are, by no means, moronic and idiotic.
> > Just short on resources and organization.
> >
> > I also have a number of goblin ruins in my cerilia, to parallel the elven
> > ones. Same goes for long lost magic items. Goblin wizards used to be a power
> > IMC.
>
> So, you believe that the goblins were capable of casting wizardly magic
> before the Battle of Deismaar just like the elves did? Interesting. Anyone
> else think this way?
>
> I would probably explain it more this way. The goblins, like humans, were
> limited to Magician-level magic, but heavily explored the ritual end of
> it--i.e. using increased casting time and material components to cast what
> we think of as "higher level effects" at first or second level. After all,
> when you have a high birth rate, you can afford to have numerous
> priest-magicians spending three days in ritual fasting, chanting, singing
> etc, just to cast a fifth-level spell. Probably, long-term use items like
> amulets and magical weapons would be most useful to produce through
> cooperative teams of dedicated and trained preist-magicians. Or perhaps
> they employed witches and warlocks who gained their power through a
> connection with a Shadow World spirit. This later is an interesting
> option, because it implies that one reason for the fall of the Goblin
> Culture may have been the Corruption of the Shadow World by Azrai--he
> corrupted the spirits that served the goblin witches, which in turn
> corrupted the witches, whose struggles for power with the traditional
> heirarchy toppled the system and led to the Goblin Dark Ages.
>
> Discussion?
>

Wow, it are things like this that makes it really worthwhile to be a
member of this list. Not the discussion on rules, but the ones on
cultures, religions and the Shadow World.

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[Pieter Sleijpen]

Soviet wrote:
>
> Here are some more notes to get the Bestiary Snowball rolling:
>
> 1) if the Goblins were once a great empire, what would the Ancient
> Goblins be like?

The short history notes in published materials suggest that the goblins
once were slaves of the elves, who rebelled and gained their freedom at
the price of eternal war. Of coarse, this is most likely the elven
version, since there would be little left of the goblin history version
except myths. Maybe there used to be strict Empires, that were conquered
and destroyed by the elves. A culture like Japanese/Chines sounds good,
because it is easy to "corrupt". The trilogy "Daughter of an Empire",
"Servant of an Empire" and "Mistress of an Empire" (sorry forgot the
names of the two writers and don't have the books at hand) clearly show
how. They began to intrude on the elves, who retaliated and won because
not only had they access to more powerful magic but also were less
strict and conservative. The goblins were conquered and enslaved,
returning to barbarism. Maybe the Maze was actually build by these
goblins?

I do think the goblins were able to use magic in similar way's as elves.
The book "Greatheart" makes it very clear that the goblins have just as
good a connection with the trees as elves (which would translate into
Meghbail in game terms), just that they are less trained in it. So, I
think they once possesed the knowledge to use true magic without a
bloodline, though not realm magic and the idea of a more ritualistic
practice and spirits does fit with the Oriental idea (Wu-jens). By now
they have lost it, though an elf might actually be able to train a
goblin with a lot of patience and if it was a rare goblin with the
talent.

> 2) Shadow world Aberrations:
> Halflings = Derro?
> Sprites,pixies, etc. = Jermaleine?
> Ogres = Ogre Magi?
> Elves = Dark Stalkers?

What exactly do you mean? Creatures corrupted by the Shadow World's
spirits, somewhat similar to the Fomori of White Wolves Darkworld? Or
copies of each race, but then living in the Shadow World?

If the last then I would say:
Humans - Halflings
Elves - goblins
Dwarves - orogs or gnomes?
Fairies of the Seelie court - Fairies of the Unseelie court

Of coarse if the goblins and orogs originally came from the Shadow World
they have long lost that knowledge. While Fairies actually are all from
the Shadow World, but those of the Unseelie Court were just corrupted by
it.

> 3) Meghbail using creatures?

Any supernatural creature? In my campaign supernatural creatures are
either a result of 'corruption' by the Shadow World or Meghbail. The
first are unnatural and by this time evil and dangerous to the natural
world. For example, my favorites are the giant spiders -my players seem
to be very impressed by them and when in jungle take the most rediculous
precautions to avoid them since they have been pestered by them once and
who am I not to listen to them?-, stirges, perytons (summoned by
unjustly murdered persons with strong souls to take revange) and of
coarse undead. Meghbail creatures would be the more natural and
beautiful ones, like those described at the end of the Book of
Magecraft, the pegasus, the dragons, the giants, the elves and so on.
They do feed of the meghbail, giving a very good explanation for why
they are so rare in civilized area's, but not to all exclution. Of
coarse, this also give an explanation why elves don't need farms: they
eat very little, they get most from the energy natural to a forest.

Of coarse, this is the first time I put these thoughts under words and
they have been largly influenced by recent discussion in private and
through this mailing list and they will most definatly change in the
future. For instance I never even concidered meghbail as a source of
energy until it was suggested here.

Pieter Sleijpen

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[Mark A Vandermeulen]

OK folks, the University's computer system was down all weekend, and I
dealt with my cat most of Monday (time for the yearly shots), so I have a
pretty big backlog of mail to respond to, some from pretty long ago. Bear
with me--it's your just deserts for being so interesting and prolific. :)

On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, Narek wrote:

> I don't think they're actually form changes, its just variations in size.
> Cerilian goblins all look the same, aside from the height, the comparisons to
> normal goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears are just stat wise. I think its much
> like human variations on height taken to an extreme degree...

That's certainly possible, although I personally like the idea of
inventing a culture for a species that has an inherent "caste"
structure--call it an interesting sociological challenge if you will. My
personal favorite line of thought right now is that all the varieties are
interfertile, but the hobgoblin and bugbear forms are caused by mutations
of large effect (sorry, I'm starting to lapse into bio-talk here). There
may be two, or possibly more of these mutations in the population, and
having a single mutation makes one develop into the larger Hobgoblin form,
and having two (or more!) makes one into the Bugbear form. As an
interesting trade-off, I think the "mutations" might have a metabolic
cost--the larger forms get bigger and stronger, but tend to live "faster"
and don't live as long as the goblinoid forms. If you consider this, you
have the 3 forms start falling into more natural roles. The goblinoid
caste, being the weakest, are the natural workers, but they also live the
longest, and so might also be held to be the wisest. Thus, they may play
an important role in the goblin priesthoods. The hobgoblin form may be
stronger, and smarter, and make a natural "nobility" class for the
culture. I can easily see a "clan" structure having sprung up from the
initial families to develop the mutations. The bugbear form I am imagining
to be even bigger and stronger, but less intelligent (I have no idea if
this follows the MM, don't have it handy). They are the rarest form
(produced mainly by reproductions across "clan" lines) and are seen as
sort of "favored by the gods," i.e. having a special, but separate, place
in the culture, and while not allowed to rule over the ruling Hobgoblin
caste, are grouped into pampered cadres of "elite warriors" by each of the
clans. In fact, when one goblin clan wars with another, one of their main
goals may be to aquire female hobgoblins of the other tribe to be kept as
breeding stock, so the clan can increase their number of elite warriors.

Let me point out that I'm not saying that bugbears are the ONLY warrior
caste, and the goblinoids are ONLY the workers or priests. I think any
goblin venture will use a combination of all the castes. A hobgoblin king
or Clan Warlord may well have goblins as trusted advisors, valued for
their long knowledge and wisdom. And most goblin temples are probably
ruled by a hobgoblin, but he pays much more attention to and respects the
wisdom of his goblinoid underlings much more than he would if he were a
secular ruler. If a goblinoid were to be blooded, he would be most
accepted by his society if he chose to exert his power as the ruler of a
temple. And there are probably bugbear Temple Guards to protect the
temple (perhaps given as gifts from one of the noble clans to gain favor
from the temple).

> I don't know about the goblins having an eastern philosiphy, except mabey for
> those in Khinasi. In the atlas to cerilla I think it said somehwat emulate the
> human societies around them in their own way. The Anuirean goblins have
> nobility and much power in their kings, Vos goblins are very harsh and brutal,
> etc. Mabey the ancient goblin empire was eastern in thought, but I doubt the
> current ones are.

I certainly don't mean to say that the goblins have a very highly
organized culture now. I think the goblins once had a fairly distinct
culture, but for the most part it has been lost in the chaos and
corruption that the goblins suffered at the hand of Azrai. I think the
mark of that suffering is still very much felt in goblin culture. There
may still be a few places, like Thurazor, where some of that culture is
still remembered, and some of the legacy of that culture, like old
palaces, the remnants of advanced skills (like crossbow construction) are
still maintained, but in many areas, the individual clans have become laws
onto themselves, and are free to be as barbaric as they want to be. A
bushido-like code of honor, which said that a warrior must do what he is
commaded to by his lord, and that loyalty to his sworn lord is more
important than his own life and religion, and that his honor and hope for
the afterlife is tied up in serving his lord and never betraying him, can
easily be turned to barbaric ends by evil and corrupt lords. And if
virtually ALL of the goblin clan lords are evil, urged on by tribal
witch-priests, it comes to be the normal behavior for goblin warriors, and
is expected of them. The old ideals may still be kept by some of the
clans, but as it says in the Thurazor section of the RoE book: those who
don't like it are free to leave and set up their own tiny kingdom in the
Five Peaks or start their own mercenary group to fight in the human wars.
Thus, the most barbaric of the goblins--those most concerned with gaining
as much power as they can at the expense of anyone who gets in their way,
are also the ones most likely to be encountered by humans. Thus the
goblins certainly do have reputations of being bloodthursty, evil
barbarians, because most of them, and particularly those most adventurers
are likely to be, will be exactly that. But it also leaves room open for
the rare adventurer to come across the find that will astonish her and
shake her view of the world: a lonely monastery, hidded high in the
mountains, where a last remnant of goblins pursue the old ways, pursueing
knowledge and mysticism, creating articles of magical power through
rigourous and lengthy cooperative magic rituals, and seeking for a way to
redeem their fellow goblins from the chaos and corruption that has been
visited upon them.

> Actually truthfully in our culture the word minotaur came from one specific
> myth, that of Theseus and the Minotaur, I don't see why the Cerilians didn't
> come up with the names for these awnsheighlien when they heard them described.

True, that's where the STORY comes from, but the word itself, Minotaur,
comes from the Greek for bull (taur: as in the constellation and zodiac
sign Taurus), and from the King of Crete, Minos, who was the cuckolded
husband of the woman whom Zeus had sex with to produce the beast (if I'm
remembering my Bullfinch's correctly). Thus, the word means essentially
"the Bull of Minos." If we were to try and do the same sort of thing in
Cerilia, we would need another "Minos" to have the things named after.
Perhaps a sea captain of the Masetians? Perhaps he made up the story about
them--or perhaps he really did see them on one of his voyages, because I
noticed yesterday that the RB mentions in the section on gods that the
minotaurs of Cerilia worship Baphomet (sp?). So perhaps minotaurs do exist
on Cerilia (or on Aduria, or some island, etc. etc.).

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu
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[Soviet]

No wonder I couldn't send the Monster Template...
I'll try again tonight...
Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:

> OK folks, the University's computer system was down all weekend, and I
> dealt with my cat most of Monday (time for the yearly shots), so I have a
> pretty big backlog of mail to respond to, some from pretty long ago. Bear
> with me--it's your just deserts for being so interesting and prolific. :)
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