Chap 1 - Final Discussion

[irdeggman]

Just to throw another monkey at the wrench here is a recent reply I got from the WotC coustomer serv concerning leadership and cohorts. The discussion has been ongoing for a long time on the WotC boards and EnWorld borads as to how many cohorts a character can have. I've sent at least 3 e-mails to the sage ( one to Skip and 2 to Andy) and haven't gotten a response yet (that's the one I'm waiting for as I weigh the sage as a superior source to the customer serv at WotC). A similar answer to what I got was received by at least one other person on the WotC boards - so it looks to be at least somewhat consistent. I personally don't agree with what they are saying, but hey the rules are what the rules are :huh:

An more detailed explanatin of leadership, cohorts and lieutenants will go in Cha 8 (some of it is already there) since it is too broad to be includied in any one chapter with aspects showing up in Ch 1 and Ch 6. I also don't believe that people want (or that there should be) a limit of 1 lieutenant at a time.


We'll deal with that discussion in more detail in the future but itreally doesn't imediately affect Ch 1 (the number of military cohorts limited to GB equivalent of level would still work in any scenario, IMO). It is only the totalnumber of cohorts that would be affected and we can discuss that one later on.

I'm going to spend the weekend trying to incorporate the comments/suggestions on Ch 1 and then put it up for a vote next week.

__________________________________________________ ________________

Man. This just isn't my mail I did intend to say that the cohort does NOT cause them to take an extra cut out of their experience. You write in for an answer and I just go making it more confusing.

It is possible to have multiple cohorts, just not at the same time. So if you have a cohort, and then your cohort dies, you can then get another cohort. At this point you have had multiple cohorts and that is the plural that the section on page 104 is referring to. I can definitely see how it can be confusing. But the intention is for 1 cohort. Good gaming!

Trevor
Customer Service Department
Wizards of the Coast
dtd 1/13/105

-----Original Message-----

Thanks again for the reply and the time you are taking with me. When I looked over my original response I noticed it was rather brash and insulting. I didn't mean it to be that way, sorry for the wording.

I assume you meant to say ".. .does not cause them to take an extra cut out of their experience." (Stupid computers not keeping up with our hands/minds.) Since the method written states not to count them (cohorts) when determining XP awards for individual characters. The 3.5 formula has the individual award determined on an individual character basis (using their level and the CR of the opponent/trap and then dividing by the total number of characters present. It is this last number (the one in the denominator) that is not to include any cohorts present, so they never detract from the amount of XP awarded to characters they only allow a greater amount of XP to be awarded. Still seems kind of broke to me, but what the heck. I thought the method in 3.0 was better for this issue (cohorts counted as a half character when determining XP awards).

As far as only gaining 1 cohort, I can understand the logic but it still seems to be a gut-feeling call that is repeated whenever the question is asked. I guess the real question is then what is meant by the statement on pg 104 of the DMG "There are no limitations on the class, race, or gender of a character's cohorts, nor limits to the number of cohorts who can be employed by a character."? This is the same text that was in 3.0. It is a very clear, concise and complete statement and there are no other statements in the DMG that contradict this when referring to cohorts. As far as reading this out of context, I don't see how that can be done since it is 1/3 (one sentence out of three) of the paragraph it comes from and paragraphs are supposed to divide separate thoughts/concepts when writing. But there might have been something that was intended to be said that didn't make it into print, which would expound on this statement and help clarify the intent.



Again thanks for the time and effort you are putting into this.
dtd 1/13/05


-----Original Message-----
From: Wizards Customer Service [ mailto:custserv@wizards.com


Yeah, totally forgot about the weird cohort experience rules, you're right. And the method is what was intended. The party's level goes up for determining encounters, but the cohort does cause them to take an extra cut out of their experience. Again, it is written as intended. Sorry about the confusion.

Trevor
Customer Service Department
Wizards of the Coast
dtd 1/12/05

-----Original Message-----

Thanks for the reply.

I don't think you read the wording in the DMG under experience for cohorts.

3. Actually, if you look under the subheading "Attracting Cohorts" on page 106 of the 3.5 DMG, it states that Cohorts is effectively another PC under that player's control, "one who share of xp, treasure, and spotlight time is bound to take something away from the other players' characters." So the cohort does take his share of the xp and does raise the party's level.

1 - under experience points on pg 104 "Don't include a cohort as a party member when determining the XP awards for individual characters." It then goes into the formula for awarding a cohort experience, but they do not count in the awarding of PCs experience while they do raise the party's level for determining encounters.


dtd 1/12/05
-----Original Message-----
From: Wizards Customer Service [ mailto:custserv@wizards.com


1. You can only have one cohort at a time with the leadership feat. You can have a number of other followers as detailed on page 106 of the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide, but you only ever have one cohort.

2. You only gain the benefits from the leadership feat once, so if you take it multiple times, the effects would not stack. There is no reason to take the feat more than once.

3. Actually, if you look under the subheading "Attracting Cohorts" on page 106 of the 3.5 DMG, it states that Cohorts is effectively another PC under that player's control, "one who share of xp, treasure, and spotlight time is bound to take something away from the other players' characters." So the cohort does take his share of the xp and does raise the party's level.

I hope that clears things up. Have fun and good gaming!

Trevor
Customer Service Department
Wizards of the Coast
dtd 1/12/05

-----Original Message-----

Based upon some quite energetic discussions with some fellow gamers, I have some questions on cohorts and the Leadership feat. I haven’t seen any clarification on these topics in the past so any guidance/advice/ruling would be greatly appreciated.


1. How many cohorts can a character with the leadership feat have at one time?

The DMG pg 104 seems to imply that there is no limit, although some are reading it as a character can replace cohorts who leave or die an unlimited number of times but can only have one cohort at a time. There are no limitations on the class, race, or gender of a characters cohorts, nor limits to the number of cohorts who can be employed by a character. This seems to echo the 2nd ed rules that had henchmen precursor to cohorts and the number allowed based on the characters charisma score while followers replaced men-at-arms I think that is what they were called as listed under fighter, thief and cleric classes

2. Can this feat be taken more than once?

This is not included in the description of the feat, which is the norm. If a character is limited to only one cohort at a time can this number be increased by repetitive acquisition of the Leadership feat?


3. Is the method for determining experience for cohorts and factoring them into the experience distribution as written in the DMG really what was intended by the rules or did something get messed up during the final editing/compilation of the book?

Cohorts are counted when determining the party level for encounters. They are not counted when awarding experience, they get a different rate that doesn’t detract from the experience point awards. pg 104/105 Don’t include a cohort as a party member when determining the XP awards for individual characters. A cohort gains XP equal to cohort level/leaders level times the leader’s XP award. So what essentially happens is that by bringing along cohorts the party can survive encounters of higher levels, gaining higher experience point awards with no additional risk involved. In 3.0 the cohort did take from the XP pool available, but at 1/2 the rate a normal player character would. This really gets distorted if there is no limit to the number of cohorts a character can have see question 1 above. This seems to be a broken game mechanic and is, at least on the surface, unbalanced.

dtd 1/12/05

[void]

Do dwarven crafted(races of stone p 159) items exist in Birthright ?

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by void@Feb 2 2005, 06:45 PM
Do dwarven crafted(races of stone p 159) items exist in Birthright ?

The BRCS is making it a point to not reference books other than the core 3 (PHB/DMG/MM) so that people don't need to have any other books in order to play.

Now as far as whether or not you want to incorporate items from Races Of Stone into your game - that is up to you. The book had some interesting things, as does almost all of the 3.5 WotC books IMO, that could easily be incorporated into a BR game.

[RaspK_FOG]

Might I add here that the DMG said that there is no limit to the number of cohorts you can have? I certainly don't think this was referring to your previous cohort actually dying and then getting another; let us keep in mind that cohorts with different alignments affect your Leadership score!

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Feb 3 2005, 03:55 AM
Might I add here that the DMG said that there is no limit to the number of cohorts you can have? I certainly don't think this was referring to your previous cohort actually dying and then getting another; let us keep in mind that cohorts with different alignments affect your Leadership score!

Read my entire post and you will see that was specifically my point. But as I said, while I don't personally agree. . . .

[RaspK_FOG]

I read it in its entirety, and I feel like this guy is actually pointing out the way HE feels the whole thing works... :bleh:

[The Jew]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Feb 3 2005, 09:47 PM
I read it in its entirety, and I feel like this guy is actually pointing out the way HE feels the whole thing works... :bleh:

His repeated confusion and misunderstandings do not exactly inspre confidence

[Osprey]

I read it in its entirety, and I feel like this guy is actually pointing out the way HE feels the whole thing works... :bleh:

His repeated confusion and misunderstandings do not exactly inspre confidence

Aye and Aye. <_<


My own opinion on multiple cohorts is that it works fine for lieutenants on a domain level, but gets broken to allow more than one cohort on an adventure - even one can be a real pain in the **?&#33;

[RaspK_FOG]

I prefer considering them as half characters and as lower-level PCs that contribute to the party level; this has worked for me best, since the cohort is usually cold upon when there is need to do so, and not every now and then.

In any case, we should wait for a responce from people who are more trustworthy in their answers, though if things go way out of context, we could well change the feat and make it work in a specific manner under the BRCS; I don&#39;t think we should take a step back for the rules in such an occasion...

[irdeggman]

First off let me say I agree with you all for the most part. I still feel the way the DMG is written is very clear and concise. I have also found (via Sage advice) that the rules are supposed to be used as written I have found that once Skip (I&#39;m still not too sure about Andy&#39;s version of Sage yet, but I&#39;l give him the benefit of the doubt for now) explained things then the text ususally became crystal clear and except for typos/editorials the intent and actual text were not in contrast.

I liked the 3.0 of leadership version much better. The major problem I have with the cohorts rule is how they divvy up exp. They count towards the party&#39;s EL but not towards any split in exp. Playing devil&#39;s advocate here - in a bizarro sort of way this works if a character is limited to only one cohort - they are treating the cohort like a paladin&#39;s mount or a wizard&#39;s familiar (it&#39;s part of the package for the character).

Now both the 3.5 and 3.0 version pointed out that this feat can be unbalncing so a DM is cautioned on how (and if) he applies it.

Regardless of what the Sage publishes (if ever) it will not affect Ch 1 or Ch 2. The only real reference to cohorts in Ch 1 is the military cohorts and the limit of number tied into the level of allowed cohort can still work - although when we finalize the BRCS I am not opposed to having a single militay cohort but that is not something we really need to deal with at this time, IMO.

Oh and there was this part of my other post

A similar answer to what I got was received by at least one other person on the WotC boards - so it looks to be at least somewhat consistent.

I didn&#39;t cut and past that post (from the WotC boards) but it was pretty much the same about only having 1 cohort at a time and the cohorts referring to replacing the existing cohort. It was from a different representative from the Customer Service at WotC - so it is not just one person&#39;s opinion but what appears to be the party line (at least from the Customer Service Dept).

All of this stemmed from several agressive discussions I have participated in on both the EnWorld boards and WotC boards. People are generally split on how they view the requirements, I think more side with the no limit interpretation - but I&#39;m not sure. I think you get the feel of which side I was one. It is pretty amazing how many people feel that my parents were never married.