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  1. #1
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    Taxation extremely newbie quest

    Soviet wrote:

    > Ok at the risk of sounding stupid :
    > I'm not quite sure about the Taxation rules, I have a Fighther regent and he
    > gets the normal taxation per province, but there is a guild loyal
    > (Read:Controlled by) to the regent, does he get a guild collection roll or is
    > this option only for thieves?

    A fighter collects taxes from guilds (or temples too, for that matter) though he
    cannot collect regency from them.

    > also are claims by law holdings only made in provinces controlled by other
    > regents or can they be made on guilds controled by other regents in the regent's
    > own province.(sponsored acts of banditry, etc..)?

    Lessee.... You mean, can a regent who controls the law holdings of a province and
    SOME of the guilds use his law holdings to "tax" the holdings of the other guilder?
    Sure. It's good to be the king, you know? Whoever controls the law holdings can
    make claims on the holdings of any other regent in that province.

    I suppose there might be some debate over whether he could also lay claim on the
    taxes generated by the province itself.... Personally, I don't see why not. The
    law holder is presumably the guy in charge of collecting those taxes, so it makes
    sense to me that he would be able to "skim" or level a surcharge on his services....

    Laters,
    Gary
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  2. #2
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    Taxation extremely newbie quest

    Silveras wrote:

    > Alternative interpretations: I have seen Law Claims handled
    > differently. Some people think that they represent a legitimate part of
    > every realm's operations, and are part of standard taxation.

    Yes, I think this is largely a matter of interpretation. Hired thugs or lawful
    tax collectors. Depends on how the DM and/or his players want to handle
    things. Personally, I think it's fine to say that the money collected by law
    holdings are either bandits or sheriffs, extortion or tariffs. It depends on
    the alignment of the law holder.

    Gary
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  3. #3
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    Taxation extremely newbie quest

    Silveras wrote:

    > I'm afraid I disagree in part. I think this falls pretty much into the
    > same category as assassination as a political tool: something that most
    > enlightened rulers would shy away from publicly, except for the most brutal
    > and repressive societies.
    > The regent's alignemt *would*, I think, influence how willing s/he was
    > to "break the taboo" and use this means; but the means itself would remain
    > something of "dirty secret" even then.
    > Generally, for an image of a "legitimate" regent who would use such
    > tactics, I'd refer one to the Zorro or Robin Hood movies. The corrupt
    > military commanders of the former, and Prince John in the latter, seem to
    > exemplify the sort of tyrants who would resort to Law Claims in addition to
    > the normal taxes. That didn't make these actions in any way "legal".

    I still think this is a matter of interpretation. There could be plenty of
    moral and lawful ways a regent could use law holdings to get money from guild
    or temple holdings. Tariffs aren't inherently evil (despite the efforts of
    certain political functionaries to argue that they are) neither are tolls,
    luxury taxes, etc.

    The people who collect those taxes/tolls/etc. can be thugs who run around
    demanding "protection money" or they can be guards posted at the city gates
    collecting tolls, or bureaucrats sent to temples levying operating taxes, a
    surcharge placed on the sale of holy items, etc. The domain rules are general
    enough to allow for any of those interpretations or many more.

    In the examples you site above, I would interpret those as being more like the
    loss of morale that a province goes through when the province ruler does not
    have sufficient law holdings to counter his/her taxation. Zorro and Robin Hood
    are revolutionaries, trying to overthrow the current government, not just
    people who steal tax money. Using law holdings to garner taxes from guilds or
    temples doesn't throw the province into rebellion like severe taxation can. In
    fact, it doesn't even raise an eyebrow. Except among players and DMs, that
    is. Which is why I think it is largely misinterpreted as being a nasty,
    unpleasant thing to do.

    Gary
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  4. #4
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    Taxation extremely newbie quest

    Soviet wrote:

    > One more question:
    > If a fighter can collect from both guilds and temples:
    > I can see a fighter controlling a guild, but what about a temple?

    Sure, why not? Henry VIII started his own church, and he was a pretty
    unpriestly dude.

    Do you have a copy of the Book of Priestcraft? It has a chart in there that
    has the level and class make up of the clergy that occupy the actual temples a
    regent controls. A pretty significant number of them are fighters, not
    priests. I actually think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, think of a lot
    of the priestly characters in history or fantasy literature. Do they really
    fit the AD&D profile of priest? Lots of them were much more like fighters who
    just have a religious POV and can conduct simple, non-magical ceremonies. In
    RL, monks and nuns are clergy, but can't perform major rites. They are
    probably fighters or even thieves. (If they are levelled at all, that is.)

    Gary
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  5. #5
    Daniel McSorley
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    Taxation extremely newbie quest

    From: Soviet
    >which page is this?
    BoP, p65.

    >in real life that might had been feasible...but D&D priest are the direct
    link of
    >their gods on earth, how can a fighter top that and become the ruler of a
    temple
    >holding?
    >
    Birthright holdings are political in nature. A temple isn't only a part
    of the worship of a god, it also imparts authority over people (and their
    money). A savvy warrior could come to the top of such an organization, but
    he would be hampered by his lack of regency collection and realm spells, so
    he might not last long. If he can delegate such things to priest-class
    underlings and merely run the politics of the temple (perhaps having priest
    lieutenants function as vassals to gain RPs), he could last considerably
    longer.
    Actually, I have run a paladin as the head of a temple of Haelyn, and it
    didn't work too badly. I am also of the opinion that a paladin might be
    able to cast a single realm spell, investiture, since he would be acting as
    agent for the authority of his god in that case, but that's just me.
    - --
    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu
    http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~mcsorley/

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  6. #6
    Daniel McSorley
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    Taxation extremely newbie quest

    From: Memnoch
    >If the law holding doing the claiming is actually in a province owned by
    the
    >law holder, then it is viewed as lawful taxation (the taxman). Whereas if
    >the law holding in question is outside the law holders realm (his
    >provinces), then they aren't "legal" and are considered to be bandits and
    >thugs. It all depends on whether the law holder doing the claiming owns
    the
    >province where the law holding resides.
    >
    Well, they don't have to be bandits. It could also represent subversion
    of the local authorities to the point that they skim off some of the take
    and send it to their real master. So still theft, but non-violent.
    - --
    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu
    http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~mcsorley/

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  7. #7
    Soviet
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    Taxation extremely newbie quest

    One more question:
    If a fighter can collect from both guilds and temples:
    I can see a fighter controlling a guild, but what about a temple?
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  8. #8
    JNeighb934@aol.co
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    Taxation extremely newbie quest

    In a message dated 07/05/99 19:47:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
    memnoch@comic.net writes:

    > If the law holding doing the claiming is actually in a province owned by the
    > law holder, then it is viewed as lawful taxation (the taxman). Whereas if
    > the law holding in question is outside the law holders realm (his
    > provinces), then they aren't "legal" and are considered to be bandits and
    > thugs. It all depends on whether the law holder doing the claiming owns
    the
    > province where the law holding resides.
    >

    Also, in many cases of regents having minor law holdings in provinces they do
    not rule, I see it as the regent having influence in the law of that province
    through controlling spies and men who are loyal to him; such men being in
    positions of some importance in the administration of law in that particular
    province (military, tax collections, sheriffs, etc.) Province tax
    collections and tarriffs and duties on temple/guild collections could be
    siphoned off and redirected to the foreign regent. This undercover graft is
    another way to view law claims. But as GeeMan stated, there are many ways to
    view law claims, depending on the situation and common sense and I believe
    the DM should use a variety of explanations if his players should inquire.To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
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  9. #9
    JNeighb934@aol.co
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    Taxation extremely newbie quest

    In a message dated 07/05/99 19:50:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
    mcsorley.1@osu.edu writes:

    > Well, they don't have to be bandits. It could also represent subversion
    > of the local authorities to the point that they skim off some of the take
    > and send it to their real master. So still theft, but non-violent.
    > --

    Uhhhh, I guess I should have read this next post before I sent my reply. He
    took the words right out of my mouth :)To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
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  10. #10
    Soviet
    Guest

    Taxation extremely newbie quest

    which page is this?
    in real life that might had been feasible...but D&D priest are the direct link of
    their gods on earth, how can a fighter top that and become the ruler of a temple
    holding?

    GeeMan wrote:

    > Soviet wrote:
    >
    > > One more question:
    > > If a fighter can collect from both guilds and temples:
    > > I can see a fighter controlling a guild, but what about a temple?
    >
    > Sure, why not? Henry VIII started his own church, and he was a pretty
    > unpriestly dude.
    >
    > Do you have a copy of the Book of Priestcraft? It has a chart in there that
    > has the level and class make up of the clergy that occupy the actual temples a
    > regent controls. A pretty significant number of them are fighters, not
    > priests. I actually think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, think of a lot
    > of the priestly characters in history or fantasy literature. Do they really
    > fit the AD&D profile of priest? Lots of them were much more like fighters who
    > just have a religious POV and can conduct simple, non-magical ceremonies. In
    > RL, monks and nuns are clergy, but can't perform major rites. They are
    > probably fighters or even thieves. (If they are levelled at all, that is.)
    >
    > Gary
    >
    > ************************************************** *************************
    > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
    > with the line 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
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