Levels of Magic in Cerilia

[Thomas]

Here's my two cents, please don't flame me to bad because I don't agree with
the rest of you ;)

The concept that Cerilia is a low magic level world is, in my opinion, a
large contradiction. If you look at the story behind Cerilia, magic
permeates everything. The blood of the gods was spilled on everything, the
land itself produces the magic used by blooded mages. Mebhaighl exists in
all land, and as any substance that exists in an ecosystem it must
eventually permeate all living things. Thus all people and creatures in
Cerilia must have mebhaighl in them. Blooded creatures just have more. If
magic exists in everything, how can Cerilia be a low magic world. The
ability to directly tap that magic and cast powerful spells (ie be blooded
mages) may be rare but that doesn't mean magic is rare.

Also, if magic weapons are extremely rare, then the awnsheghlien become even
more broken then they already are. Almost all the awnsheghlien require
magical weapons to hit then. Think, if Rhuobhe Manslayer knew that nobody
would have a +3 weapon, what would stop him. He wants all humans dead, he
could do it personally because nobody would have a weapon that could touch
him. Also, to many of the "generic" enchanted weapons exist in the published
literature to think that they are hard to find. The "super" weapons that
have different powers may be rare but the "generic" weapons can't be.

I've also toyed with the idea that the bloodlines themselves create magical
weapons. If the bloodlines themselves are magical, then what would happen
to the weapon that was bathed in that blood. If the blood line is strong
enough then it would create a magical weapon. For example, the sword that
kills a major bloodline character would gain a +1 enchantment, a great would
get +2 and a true +3. Since blooded characters are fairly uncommon, and
those with major or higher levels even more uncommon, this will still limit
the number of enchanted weapons but would put it in the realm of possibility
for the PC's to have them. The weapons created this way would be the
standard "general" enchanted weapons, any special weapons would still have
to created by a wizard.

Thomas

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[ryan.caveney@alum.mit.ed]

On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, Thomas wrote:

> Here's my two cents, please don't flame me to bad because I don't agree with
> the rest of you ;)

No flames here -- I, at least, agree with you. =)

> Mebhaighl exists in all land, and as any substance that exists in an
> ecosystem it must eventually permeate all living things. Thus all
> people and creatures in Cerilia must have mebhaighl in them. Blooded
> creatures just have more.

YES! This is *exactly* what I think. Thank you for saying it so
well. I also use this to explain why there are so darn many sentient
races hanging about (a thing which has always bothered me in other
campaign worlds): mebhaighl can clearly be shaped and directed by the
power of thought, so it makes sense that its presence would have helped
direct evolution towards many kinds of sentient life. It also appears to
be produced by living things: for those of us who subscribe to the "RPs
are magical energy" theory, that is clear since ruling more people on the
same patch of land provides more RP; and (less debatably) plant life
creates/concentrates mebhaighl quite well -- the towering trees of ancient
forests provide a much higher source potential than the same land
without them (plains) would. That extends to a consistent explanation of
the various forms of sentient plant life, such as treants and shambling
mounds (and Cerilian forest giants??).

> If the bloodlines themselves are magical, then what would happen to the
> weapon that was bathed in that blood. If the blood line is strong
> enough then it would create a magical weapon.

Wow. This is really neat! I think I'm stealing it right now. =)
This also ties in well with the "every magic item has its own story"
concept. For example: what gives the "Black Spear Tribes" of the Tarvan
Waste their name? Perhaps the symbol of the leadership of the most
powerful clan is an ancient, fire-blackened and tarnished but apparently
unbreakable spear that gained a reputation for deadliness in the years
immediately following the fall of Djira, for it was touched by the power
of the gods and became a magic weapon when it slew the last Sultan and was
bathed in his lifesblood.
It also gives the unscrupulous yet *another* reason to kidnap and
murder blooded people. =)

- --Ryan
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[Olesens]

Thomas wrote:

> Here's my two cents, please don't flame me to bad because I don't agree with
> the rest of you ;)
>
> The concept that Cerilia is a low magic level world is, in my opinion, a
> large contradiction. If you look at the story behind Cerilia, magic
> permeates everything. The blood of the gods was spilled on everything, the
> land itself produces the magic used by blooded mages. Mebhaighl exists in
> all land, and as any substance that exists in an ecosystem it must
> eventually permeate all living things. Thus all people and creatures in
> Cerilia must have mebhaighl in them. Blooded creatures just have more. If
> magic exists in everything, how can Cerilia be a low magic world. The
> ability to directly tap that magic and cast powerful spells (ie be blooded
> mages) may be rare but that doesn't mean magic is rare.

This is exactly how I feel. Cerilia is low magic in the form of a typical AD&D
game but that loss of magic is replaced with another kind (possibly the reason I
like BR). I enjoy the contradiction of "low magic" in Birthright. Which is one
reason I replace magical swords and necromancers with awnsheglien, ensheglien,
and other blood/meghbable related items IMC.

>
>
> Also, if magic weapons are extremely rare, then the awnsheghlien become even
> more broken then they already are. Almost all the awnsheghlien require
> magical weapons to hit then. Think, if Rhuobhe Manslayer knew that nobody
> would have a +3 weapon, what would stop him. He wants all humans dead, he
> could do it personally because nobody would have a weapon that could touch
> him. Also, to many of the "generic" enchanted weapons exist in the published
> literature to think that they are hard to find. The "super" weapons that
> have different powers may be rare but the "generic" weapons can't be.

I believe that that is part of the idea. Major awnsheglien like the Gorgon,
Rhuobhe, and so on were, IMO, not meant to be killed. If you do want to kill
one of them it is a major effort. You've got to find a really awsome weapon,
armor, and some protective magical items for even a chance. Rhuobhe and the
Gorgon haven't survived for thousands of years from just what they have, but
partly from what the world doesn't have. It is my opinion (which I don't this
is that out of the ordinary) that Cerilia is in a dark age. Most magical items
were made before human arrival in Cerilia. You'd find a lot of priestly weapons
burried across Aduria and bunches of wizardly ones in Cerilia. Elves had ley
lines and realm spells before Diesmaar but, IMO again, the ways of doing such
were lost after the fall of the Elven Empire.

>
>
> I've also toyed with the idea that the bloodlines themselves create magical
> weapons. If the bloodlines themselves are magical, then what would happen
> to the weapon that was bathed in that blood. If the blood line is strong
> enough then it would create a magical weapon. For example, the sword that
> kills a major bloodline character would gain a +1 enchantment, a great would
> get +2 and a true +3. Since blooded characters are fairly uncommon, and
> those with major or higher levels even more uncommon, this will still limit
> the number of enchanted weapons but would put it in the realm of possibility
> for the PC's to have them. The weapons created this way would be the
> standard "general" enchanted weapons, any special weapons would still have
> to created by a wizard.

I like it. I think, however, that it would be best if used in conjection with
other spells. One possibility is just having scion blood
as one component of a magical weapon in place of Permenancy. Another possibilty
is: What happens when you "Enchant an Item" your sword then commit bloodtheft
with it within the next few hours? Perhaps the bloodline would be drawn into
the weapon (instead of the weilder, to balance things out). Or what if (going
off topic a bit) you cast Enchant an Item on an unblooded person then that
person commited bloodtheft? Perhaps Enchant an Item works like a magnet for
meghable (which IMO includes bloodlines). Or maybe a priest could cast some
priest spell on his sword then do bloodtheft. I hope I've said something
coherent enough to at least spark someone's imagination.
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[Alaric]

Thomas wrote:
>
> Here's my two cents, please don't flame me to bad because I don't agree with
> the rest of you ;)
> Also, if magic weapons are extremely rare, then the awnsheghlien become even
> more broken then they already are. Almost all the awnsheghlien require
> magical weapons to hit then. Think, if Rhuobhe Manslayer knew that nobody
> would have a +3 weapon, what would stop him. He wants all humans dead, he
> could do it personally because nobody would have a weapon that could touch
> him. Also, to many of the "generic" enchanted weapons exist in the published
> literature to think that they are hard to find. The "super" weapons that
> have different powers may be rare but the "generic" weapons can't be.

OK, this requires me to mention something that came up in my campaign.
What prevents a powerful mage (say 9th-12th level min) from either
creating a battle spell 'Conjure Elementals' or just summoning up a
couple pre a battle (or priests for that matter could do it
too)...what's going to stop a creature that can't be harmed by weapons
less than +2? One elemental could take out an entire unit, even using
the rules that the other units are going to be some miles away. I'm
interested in feedback.

Thx,
AlaricTo unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
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[Pieter Sleijpen]

Alaric wrote:
>
> Thomas wrote:
> >
> > Here's my two cents, please don't flame me to bad because I don't agree with
> > the rest of you ;)
> > Also, if magic weapons are extremely rare, then the awnsheghlien become even
> > more broken then they already are. Almost all the awnsheghlien require
> > magical weapons to hit then. Think, if Rhuobhe Manslayer knew that nobody
> > would have a +3 weapon, what would stop him. He wants all humans dead, he
> > could do it personally because nobody would have a weapon that could touch
> > him. Also, to many of the "generic" enchanted weapons exist in the published
> > literature to think that they are hard to find. The "super" weapons that
> > have different powers may be rare but the "generic" weapons can't be.
>
> OK, this requires me to mention something that came up in my campaign.
> What prevents a powerful mage (say 9th-12th level min) from either
> creating a battle spell 'Conjure Elementals' or just summoning up a
> couple pre a battle (or priests for that matter could do it
> too)...what's going to stop a creature that can't be harmed by weapons
> less than +2? One elemental could take out an entire unit, even using
> the rules that the other units are going to be some miles away. I'm
> interested in feedback.
>

First of all, don't allow this kind of summoning spells as battle
spells. Secondly, elementals have to be actively controlled or else they
will run amok. I don't think that wizards could get that control in a
large battle for a long time. If the wizard looses control the
elementals will attack the wizard and I don't think any general would
want to have that risk. A wizard with the power to summon elemental
could much better use other spells, who are a lot more trustworthy.
Thirdly, there are fairly streightforward spells that can make weapons
temporarily magic, like the realm spell "bless army" (bless spell can
make weapons magical, why not the realm spell?) or the battle spell
"enchant item".

Pieter Sleijpen

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[Jeremy Baker]

Alaric said,
>OK, this requires me to mention something that came up in my campaign.
>What prevents a powerful mage (say 9th-12th level min) from either
>creating a battle spell 'Conjure Elementals' or just summoning up a
>couple pre a battle (or priests for that matter could do it
>too)...what's going to stop a creature that can't be harmed by weapons
>less than +2? One elemental could take out an entire unit, even using
>the rules that the other units are going to be some miles away. I'm
>interested in feedback.


My first thought that came to mind was the episode of "Buffy,
the Vampire Slayer" in which "the Judge" appeared, a demon that 'could not
be killed by any weapon forged by man.' The previous time he had been
summoned was in an age of similar technological standards to BR and the only
way he was stopped was by being over-run by armies of men who chopped him to
pieces and then spread the parts all over the known world, he was not dead,
he just couldn't do anything bad until he was put back together.
Sorry for the ramble, but I agree Alaric does bring up an
interesting point, especially since it does not even need a battle spell to
be effective, of course it would make a battle version of Protection from
Evil be very useful.

Jeremy Baker.
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[Kenneth Gauck]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Alaric
Date: Friday, June 11, 1999 2:21 AM

>...what's going to stop a creature that can't be harmed by weapons
>less than +2? One elemental could take out an entire unit, even using
>the rules that the other units are going to be some miles away. I'm
>interested in feedback.

Clearly in a campaign where the normal distribution of magical weapons is
far lower than normal, either such creatures must be adusted too. My
suggestion is that for each plus of invulnerability that the standard
monster has, the BR version is immune to the first 2 hp damage of every
attack. This system has limits if you plan to intruduce monsters beyond +3
magical weapon invulnerability. My suggestion is a limit to 6 hp's shaken
off per attack.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net


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[Alaric]

Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
>
> Alaric wrote:
> >
> > OK, this requires me to mention something that came up in my campaign.
> > What prevents a powerful mage (say 9th-12th level min) from either
> > creating a battle spell 'Conjure Elementals' or just summoning up a
> > couple pre a battle (or priests for that matter could do it
> > too)...what's going to stop a creature that can't be harmed by weapons
> > less than +2? One elemental could take out an entire unit, even using
> > the rules that the other units are going to be some miles away. I'm
> > interested in feedback.
> >
>
> First of all, don't allow this kind of summoning spells as battle
> spells. Secondly, elementals have to be actively controlled or else they
> will run amok. I don't think that wizards could get that control in a
> large battle for a long time. If the wizard looses control the
> elementals will attack the wizard and I don't think any general would
> want to have that risk. A wizard with the power to summon elemental
> could much better use other spells, who are a lot more trustworthy.
> Thirdly, there are fairly streightforward spells that can make weapons
> temporarily magic, like the realm spell "bless army" (bless spell can
> make weapons magical, why not the realm spell?) or the battle spell
> "enchant item".
>
> Pieter Sleijpen
>
Well there are precedents for allowing summoning spells, such as Monster
Unit Summoning I, which is the same level and essentially the same
result as Monster Summoning I. Enchanted Weapons is a good spell, but
hardly the same as wiping out a unit before. That concentration thing
had slipped by however, so I think I've got a pretty good handle on it
now, with the exception of items that aid in the summoning and control
of elementals. What, then, of the Gorgon on the battlefield? He's far
worse than any elemental. or any awnshegh resistant to normal weapons
and to most magic?
Thx,
AlaricTo unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
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[Craig Dalrymple]

- -----Original Message-----
>From: Alaric
>Date: Friday, June 11, 1999 2:21 AM
>
>...what's going to stop a creature that can't be harmed by weapons
>less than +2? One elemental could take out an entire unit, even using
>the rules that the other units are going to be some miles away. I'm
>interested in feedback.
>


Something you might try is creating one vulnerability for the creature.
Perhaps a specific type of material really screws the creature up. Cold
forged iron weapons, or something like that. Make sure that the material is
common enough to be found and used out of desperation; but not so common
that it can be mass produced. This is a great way to get hero's to go after
a big bad guy: give them the only weapons (magical or otherwise) that can
actualy do the creature harm.

If they are cowards, they give the weapons away. If they are hero's the
hunker down and go get the bad guy.

Somewhat simplistic, but effective.
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[geeman]

Alaric wrote:

> OK, this requires me to mention something that came up in my campaign.
> What prevents a powerful mage (say 9th-12th level min) from either
> creating a battle spell 'Conjure Elementals' or just summoning up a
> couple pre a battle (or priests for that matter could do it
> too)...what's going to stop a creature that can't be harmed by weapons
> less than +2? One elemental could take out an entire unit, even using
> the rules that the other units are going to be some miles away. I'm
> interested in feedback.

I have kind of a different take on this from what I've read of the other replies
to this message.

First of all, I think you are pointing out one of the basic flaws of the BR
published materials: battlespells. I don't use battlespells IMC, and I think they
are a really bad idea. I just can't see the justification for allowing a mage to
come up with a souped up version of an already existing spell that can effect 200+
individuals. It's totally outside the standard character class description in the
core rules, and makes even a first level magician a force to be reckoned with on
the battlefield, which seems to contradict the "low magic" theme of the setting.

(I know I've argued that BR really isn't a low magic setting, but battlespells
ain't what I had in mind when juicing up the magic of the campaign....)

If one can summon a single elemental using the standard Conjure Elemental spell
why not summon a unit of them using a battlespell equivalent? There are, of
course, rationalizations that a DM might use to prevent a PC from doing this, but
you really have to do some intrusive refereeing in order to keep a PC from doing
this. Personally, I'd rather not bother with it, so I just ruled "no
battlespells" in my campaign. I was a player in a campaign that (briefly) allowed
battlespells and all hell broke loose very quickly, so the DM of that one had to
put a stop to it pretty quickly.

The other problem I have with battlespells is that they reduce the significance of
realm spells. If you can summon creatures using a battlespell why go to the
trouble of summoning them with a realm spell?

Anyway, my first reaction to your question about the resistence of the creatures
summoned by the battlespell equivalent of Conjure Elemental to normal weapons
is... it doesn't matter. From what I can tell, a BR unit is comprised of roughtly
200-800 HD of creatures, which means if your battlespell summons a single unit of
elementals it should be comprised of between 25 and 100 8HD elementals. Even if
it were possible to hit them with nonmagical wepaons, that many monsters of that
much strength ought to be able to go through a unit of standard humans like a hot
knife through butter. Assuming that your mage summons earth elementals (which
seem like the most likely) they would do individually an average of 18hp/hit in a
regular, melee based battle, and that's enough to smoosh a heavy warhorse. If you
were going to make up a unit summoned by this spell they would have to be much
more powerful than the most powerful warcard in the published materials. I'd
guess (without doing any comparisons to existing warcards) that it'd probably look
like this:

Move: 2
Defense: 4 (equal to knights) *
Morale: 3 **
Melee: 9
Hits: 5

* Earth elementals are AC2 like an armored knight, so I used that defense value.

** Morale is most effected for these guys by the concentration of the mage
controlling them, per the spell description.

Note that the above defense number is based upon the possibility of the elementals
being hit at all, which I'm afraid I must disagree with my fellow list members who
have suggested that they could be. If you are going to allow battlespells based
on regular spells I think you really have to keep as much as possible from the
original spell, and to me that means keeping the magical weapon required to hit
the creatures summoned If you change this requirement for the battlespell I
think that means you really should change it for individual elementals summoned by
the standard spell. I'd rather not open a campaign up to so many contradictions,
so I just don't use battlespells.

Lastly, I really think the standard spells available to a wizard that have an
effect on units are sufficient to make them a feared and fearsome presence on the
battlefield. Fireballs can route units. That's just a 3rd level spell, which
means a 5th level mage can use it. That's plenty powerful enough for me. I don't
think we need to give them battlespells so a 1st level mage can have a similar
effect.

Gary
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