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  1. #1
    Memnoch
    Guest

    Detectimng the blooded (was: De

    The only real outward manifestation of blooded individuals is if 1) they use
    their blood abilities, and since some blood abilities can look vaguely
    spell-like, this isn't assured, and 2) if the character has the blood
    abilites: bloodmark (physical birthmark), divine aura (aura of power
    surrounding the character), bloodtrait (but only if it has been used to the
    extent that it would change the character's form), and/or Bloodform (the
    azrai version of bloodtrait.)

    I am sure there are more out there, but these are the ones that I can think
    of off hand.

    Memnoch
    - -----Original Message-----
    From: Soviet
    To: birthright@lists.imagiconline.com
    Date: Monday, June 07, 1999 9:07 PM
    Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Detectimng the blooded (was: Detecting Good/Evil and
    Bloodlines.)


    >Okay this question might be in the mind of many people:
    >Are blooded character's physicaly different(besides their obvious
    abilities)?
    >If so how? can they be recognized as such?
    >Is their blood literally different?
    >well?
    >
    >
    >GeeMan wrote:
    >
    >> Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
    >>
    >> > GeeMan wrote:
    >> > > In AD&D evil is not just a morality judgement, it is a palpable
    force. If it
    >> > > wasn't then how could it be detected, protected against or dispelled?
    Granted,
    >> > > relatively few people have the ability to detect evil, but for those
    who do it is
    >> > > a pretty definable concept. Paladins and spellcasters who can use
    Detect Evil can
    >> > > simply sense it about a person or an object. This ability isn't
    foolproof, of
    >> > > course, but it still makes discovering who is naughty and who is nice
    quite a bit
    >> > > easier than in our world (or the Star Wars univers, for that matter.)
    >> >
    >> > Detect evil is not very full proof, now is it? You can only detect
    those
    >> > of purest evil (in my campaign only those who have sold their "souls"
    to
    >> > some outer plannar being or those plannar beings) or those with a
    direct
    >> > evil intent towards the creature casting the spell "detect evil". If an
    >> > evil regent is using the PC's to reach some goal and does not plan to
    do
    >> > kill or otherwise directly harm the PC's, then that would hardly
    >> > register. Not to mention that there are quite a few low level spells
    >> > that can fool those spells. My players have learned the hard way not to
    >> > trust on such spells, but to mainly use their own eyes and brains. Even
    >> > though they still concider it a usefull guide (I am not the type of DM
    >> > that let it be wrong most of the time or unusable).
    >> >
    >> > The protection from evil spell is somewhat more difficult, but it's
    >> > effects or not readilly apparent except in the case of magical
    >> > creatures. Dispel evil works against clearly supernatural beings, and
    >> > not specificly against the common evil thug or villain.
    >> >
    >> > Since I prefer normal humans as villains, who most of the time or not
    >> > deeply evil, most of the time only selfish and powerhungry, these
    spells
    >> > do not affect my campaign that much. They are useful against undead and
    >> > the horrors from the Shadow World, but as of yet no major villain has
    >> > used those forces against them.
    >>
    >> True, Detect Evil is not foolproof. It is, however, a pretty low-level
    spell, which
    >> might account not only for its limits, but its inaccuracy. Just a level
    higher and a
    >> priest can not just Detect Evil, but Know Alignment, which is much more
    definitive.
    >>
    >> Regarding Detect Evil, however.... The definition in the PHB is that a
    "[c]haracter's
    >> alignment... is revealed only under unusual circumstances..." such as
    particularly
    >> strong alignment, faithfulness, high level plus being intent on good/evil
    actions. It
    >> goes on to list several powerful monsters, generally planar monsters, who
    radiate good
    >> or evil. Strangely, however, the PHB goes on to say that the "degree of
    evil" can also
    >> be determined; dim, faint, moderate, strong or overwelming. In addition,
    the "general
    >> nature" of the evil might be detectable too, as in "expectant, malignant,
    gloating,
    >> etc." Isn't that rather contradictory? I mean, it's difficult to detect
    evil at all,
    >> but you can detect "moderately evil gloating"? Strange.
    >>
    >> Another thing. I'd argue that it is a paladin's nature and connection to
    the forces of
    >> Good that allows him to Detect Evil, therefore, he personally radiates
    enough goodness
    >> for it to be detected by anyone able to detect such things. This is the
    same kind of
    >> thing to his vulnerability to being turned by sufficiently high level and
    evil priests.
    >>
    >> To continue that same logic... Shouldn't you be able to Detect Magic and
    determine that
    >> a character is blooded? I mean, that's the power of the gods flowing in
    someone's
    >> veins. In the BoM there are a couple of spells for determining bloodline
    derivation and
    >> strength, but what's the point? Why not just use Detect Magic and have
    it be able to
    >> determine a character's bloodline strength? The spell description for
    Detect Magic says
    >> it can determin "dim, faint, moderate, strong [and] overwelming"
    intensity. Why not
    >> just plug tainted through true in there and have bloodline detected by an
    already
    >> existing spell? Similarly, the type of magic; alteration, conjuration,
    illusion, etc.
    >> can be determined as well. Why not say the same thing for bloodline
    derivation?
    >>
    >> Lastly, I'd like to toss out there that blooded individuals just might
    qualify as the
    >> kinds of "powerful monsters" who radiate enough of their alignment to be
    detected by the
    >> Detect Evil spell. Their bloodline is a connection to the outer planes,
    a connection to
    >> the gods, for that matter. Not a much stronger kind of power than
    that.... Plus, the
    >> kinds of creatures that they list in the PHB under Detect Evil tend to be
    planar ones
    >> with a connection to an outer plane or those who are aligned undead and
    have a
    >> connection to the Negative Energy plane. It does say in the Wizard
    version of the
    >> Detect Magic spell that "otherplanar creatures are not necessarily
    magical" but I see
    >> that as being backup for saying that blooded characters could be detected
    by Detect Evil
    >> and Detect Magic. They are, after all, more strongly connected to the
    planes because
    >> they actually draw powers and abilities from their blood as opposed to
    creatures who are
    >> simply from the planes and do not have a big connection to the gods.
    >>
    >> Gary
    >>
    >>>> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to
    majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
    >> with the line 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
    >
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  2. #2
    Admin Adam Theo
    Guest

    Detectimng the blooded (was: De

    Hello Birthrighters, Adam Theo here.
    This day of Monday, June 07, 1999, at 11:12:48 PM

    On Tuesday, June 08, 1999, Soviet [rnieves@coqui.net]
    Wrote in [BIRTHRIGHT] - Detectimng the blooded (was: Detecting Good/Evil and Bloodlines.):
    S> Okay this question might be in the mind of many people:
    S> Are blooded character's physicaly different(besides their obvious abilities)?
    S> If so how? can they be recognized as such?
    S> Is their blood literally different?
    S> well?

    Here is my reply:
    appearance-wise? no. they look the same as other people, besides
    the blood marks, traits, and forms. their bodies are *slightly*
    different than notmal people, and their blood has an extra quality to
    it, from their 'gods blood'. this difference can be detected through
    magical means, hence the 'Blood Spells' from the BOM that can detect
    different parts of a person's bloodline or blood abilities.

    - --
    Adam Theo, A Patriotic American Libertarian Capitalist.
    SCO of Theoretic Internet Services, http://www.theoretic.com
    'Your Web Hosting, Email Forward, and Weather Forecast Solution,
    With Just Two Words: Quality and Privacy.'
    Mailto:adamtheo@Theoretic.com , ICQ:22377963
    Using 1.33

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  3. #3
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    Detectimng the blooded (was: De

    Memnoch wrote:

    > The only real outward manifestation of blooded individuals is if 1) they use
    > their blood abilities, and since some blood abilities can look vaguely
    > spell-like, this isn't assured, and 2) if the character has the blood
    > abilites: bloodmark (physical birthmark), divine aura (aura of power
    > surrounding the character), bloodtrait (but only if it has been used to the
    > extent that it would change the character's form), and/or Bloodform (the
    > azrai version of bloodtrait.)

    Soviet wrote:

    > Okay this question might be in the mind of many people:
    > Are blooded character's physicaly different(besides their obvious abilities)?
    > If so how? can they be recognized as such?
    > Is their blood literally different?
    > well?

    Excuse me for combining your posts, gents, but I think your posts deal with the same thing
    (and my response definitely does) so I figured I would for the sake of brevity. A trait I
    tend to lack... ;-)

    I think a blooded character must be physically different from other people. Actually, let me
    qualify that: I think he must be mystically different from other people. Physically, he may
    or may not look like anyone else, as is pointed out by Memnoch, but when it comes to magical
    detection I think you really ought to be able to detect something as powerful and ever present
    as a bloodline. My points:

    1. If a bloodline is not ever present then how and when are regency points collected? From a
    game mechanics POV, they get collected every season, but isn't that really just an affectation
    of the system, kind of like bloodline strength POINTS, regency POINTS or, for that matter, hit
    POINTS, ability score POINTS, etc. In the "reality" of the game wouldn't regency collection
    be a constant thing? The energy that regency points represent would continually be channeled
    into a blooded regent as is determined by his power and be stored or spent by him at his
    inclination. I don't think this takes any active concentration or effort on the part of the
    regent, it just goes on all the time. Even for blooded characters who are not regents, this
    is a latent and ever present ability and, therefore, constantly active and detectable.

    2. Many blood abilities are spell-like, emphasis on "spell-like". They aren't actually
    spells, though. The blooded character need not go through a process of memorization, nor must
    he learn how to channel these energies, nor does he have to go through a casting process,
    though he may have to concentrate in order to focus whatever energies are required to use his
    power. He has the innate ability to use them, and that ability is with him at all times.
    Even for those abilities which have a limited number of uses per day, I would argue that those
    abilities are not really inactive and, therefore, undetectable but ever present and hovering
    about the person (or within him) to be called upon at his whim.

    3. I've argued in the past that I think whenever there is a conflict between a blood ability
    and a spell the blood ability should win. Blood abilities are more powerful than spells
    because they come from a divine source. I think a side effect of that should be that the
    power that provides it should be detectable.

    4. It just makes so much dern sense! Detect Magic replaces two spells in the BoM that are
    just too specialized and unwieldy for my taste. Wizard spellcasters have a limited number of
    spells they can learn per spell level unless they somehow have a 19 intelligence (or you
    ignore intelligence min/max's) and at low levels that can be a problem, particularly at lower
    spell levels where there seem to be dozens of spells to choose from. I've made those spells
    available to players before and they've never been interested in learning them. Just too much
    effort for too little return. Using Detect Magic in place of Detect Bloodline Derivation and
    Detect Bloodline Strength seems like a nice solution to me.

    Laters,
    Gary

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  4. #4
    Memnoch
    Guest

    Detectimng the blooded (was: De

    - -----Original Message-----
    From: GeeMan
    To: birthright@lists.imagiconline.com
    Date: Monday, June 07, 1999 10:43 PM
    Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Detectimng the blooded (was: Detecting Good/Evil
    and Bloodlines.)



    >Excuse me for combining your posts, gents, but I think your posts deal with
    the same thing
    >(and my response definitely does) so I figured I would for the sake of
    brevity. A trait I
    >tend to lack... ;-)


    No problem... :-)

    >I think a blooded character must be physically different from other people.
    Actually, let me
    >qualify that: I think he must be mystically different from other people.
    Physically, he may
    >or may not look like anyone else, as is pointed out by Memnoch, but when it
    comes to magical
    >detection I think you really ought to be able to detect something as
    powerful and ever present
    >as a bloodline. My points:
    >
    >1. If a bloodline is not ever present then how and when are regency points
    collected?
    >snip some stuff<

    Yes, I fully agree with you that bloodlines are always present in an
    individual. They cannot be conciously suppressed. Although, they can be
    magically suppressed.

    >2. Many blood abilities are spell-like, emphasis on "spell-like". They
    aren't actually
    >spells, though. The blooded character need not go through a process of
    memorization, nor must
    >he learn how to channel these energies, nor does he have to go through a
    casting process,
    >though he may have to concentrate in order to focus whatever energies are
    required to use his
    >power. He has the innate ability to use them, and that ability is with him
    at all times.
    >Even for those abilities which have a limited number of uses per day, I
    would argue that those
    >abilities are not really inactive and, therefore, undetectable but ever
    present and hovering
    >about the person (or within him) to be called upon at his whim.
    >
    >3. I've argued in the past that I think whenever there is a conflict
    between a blood ability
    >and a spell the blood ability should win. Blood abilities are more
    powerful than spells
    >because they come from a divine source. I think a side effect of that
    should be that the
    >power that provides it should be detectable.

    >
    >4. It just makes so much dern sense! Detect Magic replaces two spells in
    the BoM that are
    >just too specialized and unwieldy for my taste. Wizard spellcasters have a
    limited number of
    >spells they can learn per spell level unless they somehow have a 19
    intelligence (or you
    >ignore intelligence min/max's) and at low levels that can be a problem,
    particularly at lower
    >spell levels where there seem to be dozens of spells to choose from. I've
    made those spells
    >available to players before and they've never been interested in learning
    them. Just too much
    >effort for too little return. Using Detect Magic in place of Detect
    Bloodline Derivation and
    >Detect Bloodline Strength seems like a nice solution to me.


    Actually, between numbers 2,3 and 4, you are contradicting yourself. You
    are stating that bloodpowers are spell-like, but come from a divine source,
    and aren't actually spells. I do agree with you, however, that when it
    comes to a blood ability and a spell competing then the blood ability should
    win. The problem with what you are stating is your interpretation of Detect
    Magic. Detect magic allows for the detection of the manifestation of
    *spells*, not divine powers. No bloodpower falls within the schools of
    magic, or priestly spheres of control. They may mimic those spells (hence
    being spell-like), but they still would not detect as such because Detect
    Magic (as well as any other divination spell that reacts to "magic" are
    designed to show the presence of magical spells (i.e. those that fall within
    the schools of magic, and the priestly spheres of control). Since blood
    powers do not do so (by your own definition), then detect magic would fail.
    That is why The BoM and BoP have specific spells to counteract this
    inadequacy.

    Hope this helps,

    Memnoch

    >Laters,
    >Gary
    >
    >
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  5. #5
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    Detectimng the blooded (was: De

    Memnoch wrote:

    > Actually, between numbers 2,3 and 4, you are contradicting yourself. You
    > are stating that bloodpowers are spell-like, but come from a divine source,
    > and aren't actually spells.

    Well, I guess I didn't define what I meant by "many spells are spell-like" very
    well. I meant they are similar to spells when looked at on a cursory level, but
    have a fundamentally different nature. That's why they don't require things
    like memorization, components, etc. I didn't mean to associate them on anything
    other than a basic level. That is, they are both magic and sometimes have
    similar properties. Because they are different from spells (that is, more
    powerful) I think they should be detectable by Detect Magic.

    > Detect magic allows for the detection of the manifestation of
    > *spells*, not divine powers. No bloodpower falls within the schools of
    > magic, or priestly spheres of control. They may mimic those spells (hence
    > being spell-like), but they still would not detect as such because Detect
    > Magic (as well as any other divination spell that reacts to "magic" are
    > designed to show the presence of magical spells (i.e. those that fall within
    > the schools of magic, and the priestly spheres of control). Since blood
    > powers do not do so (by your own definition), then detect magic would fail.
    > That is why The BoM and BoP have specific spells to counteract this
    > inadequacy.

    I don't think Detect Magic only detects the manifestation of spells. Sorry if I
    gave you that impression. The spell description says that it detects any
    "magical radiation" which would seem to include more that just spells, and also
    says that "otherplanar creatures are not necessarily magical" which would seem
    to indicate that it can detect the magical nature of otherplanar creatures who
    ARE intrinsically magical. In the same way I think the spell would detect (and
    maybe determine) the bloodline strength and derivation of a blooded character.
    Because the spell can be confused by "magical areas, multiple types of magic, or
    strong magical emanations" I would assume that all those types of magic are
    detected by the spell as well.

    Another argument for using Detect Magic for determining bloodline strength and
    derivation: If spellcasters (priest or wizard) can use their own version of the
    spell to determine the school or sphere of spells that means they can use Detect
    Magic to determine the nature of spells from another character class. If that
    is the case then extending the spell to include bloodlines isn't that much of a
    leap.

    Laters,
    Gary
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  6. #6
    Memnoch
    Guest

    Detectimng the blooded (was: De

    - -----Original Message-----
    From: GeeMan
    To: birthright@lists.imagiconline.com
    Date: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 12:12 AM
    Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Detectimng the blooded (was: Detecting Good/Evil
    and Bloodlines.)



    >Well, I guess I didn't define what I meant by "many spells are spell-like"
    very
    >well. I meant they are similar to spells when looked at on a cursory
    level, but
    >have a fundamentally different nature. That's why they don't require
    things
    >like memorization, components, etc. I didn't mean to associate them on
    anything
    >other than a basic level. That is, they are both magic and sometimes have
    >similar properties. Because they are different from spells (that is, more
    >powerful) I think they should be detectable by Detect Magic.


    Oh, I think you defined it quite well. However, I do believe that you are
    expanding the ability of the Detect Magic spell. If you go by your
    definition, psionic items (which can be "spell-like") should be detectable
    as well.
    There is an interesting definition of psionics in the supplement "Illithiad"
    that deals with just this sort of thing. It states that magic (spells) and
    psionics use the same source for their effects, however, the method of
    bringing them about differs. They use different "channels" so to speak, and
    thus while they may have the same effect, the method in which they are
    brought about are different. The same could be true of bloodlines and
    bloodpowers. Same effect, however, a different channel is used to bring
    about the effect. Now, using this definition, the detect magic spell
    detects those effects that are created through the use of the "magic
    channel", the detect psionics spell detects those effects that are created
    throught the use of the "psionic channel", and the blood-spells use the
    "blood channel". Hence the need for the differing spells to do basically
    what amounts to the same thing.

    >
    >I don't think Detect Magic only detects the manifestation of spells. Sorry
    if I
    >gave you that impression. The spell description says that it detects any
    >"magical radiation" which would seem to include more that just spells, and
    also
    >says that "otherplanar creatures are not necessarily magical" which would
    seem
    >to indicate that it can detect the magical nature of otherplanar creatures
    who
    >ARE intrinsically magical. In the same way I think the spell would detect
    (and
    >maybe determine) the bloodline strength and derivation of a blooded
    character.
    >Because the spell can be confused by "magical areas, multiple types of
    magic, or
    >strong magical emanations" I would assume that all those types of magic are
    >detected by the spell as well.


    This is where I believe your interpretation of the "other planar creatures
    aren't necessarily magic" phrase. Some specific creatures are magical and
    can be detected, however, all of them are not, so Detect Magic cannot weed
    out the extra-planar creatures just because they happen to be extra-planar.
    As for the rest of your arguement, see my above statement.

    >Another argument for using Detect Magic for determining bloodline strength
    and
    >derivation: If spellcasters (priest or wizard) can use their own version
    of the
    >spell to determine the school or sphere of spells that means they can use
    Detect
    >Magic to determine the nature of spells from another character class. If
    that
    >is the case then extending the spell to include bloodlines isn't that much
    of a
    >leap.


    No, it isn't much of a leap, however, it is my general inclination when
    interpreting spell effects that I use the most strict interpretation
    possible. This keeps "assumptions" to a minimum. Example: I was gaming
    about two weeks ago and another player asked me about the spell "Chill
    Touch" spell. In that spell description, it specifically mentions "hand" as
    the appendage that can be used to manifest the spell. The player asked if
    "foot" could be substituted. I blankly said that since the spell said
    "hand" and not "foot" or "appendage" that it could not. See what I mean.
    If too many assumptions of a spell are made and generalizations are too
    broad, magic becomes overtly powerful, and unbalancing to those that do not
    cast spells.

    Memnoch


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