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  1. #21
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    There were 12 duchies. Offhand they are:

    Aerenwe
    Alamie
    Avanil
    Bhalaene/now part of Ghoere
    Boeruine
    Cariele/ruling family moved to Coeranys
    Diemed
    Elinie
    Ghieste/now part of Ghoere
    Mhoried
    Osoerde
    Taeghas/Brosengae

  2. #22
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    If Diemed and Roesone unite, then they are just as strong as Ghoere, so this doesn't mean that you need to be duke to hold power or even hold a duchy. Just look at Dhoesone compared to Cariele.

    The Atlas in the boxed sets mentions 12 duchies too. These are:

    Aerenwe
    Alamie
    Avanil
    Boeruine
    Cariele (Ruling family relocated to Coeranys)
    Diemed
    Elinie
    Mhoried
    Osoerde
    Taeghas (Ruling family in Brosengae?)
    Talinie
    And one more Duchy which was located in what is now Ghoere.

    In Book of Priestcraft we learn that there is a Barony of Ghieste in what land Ghoere has taken. Book of Regency just says that Ghoere is formed of two weaker kingdoms (which is used to describe a realm in Birthright).

    From what sources do we have Bhalaene and Ghieste as Duchies?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Angelbialaska
    From what sources do we have Bhalaene and Ghieste as Duchies?

    There is a map in the Novel "Iron Throne" that indicates the 12 duchies, in that Ghieste and Dhalaene are included.

    Here they are according to that novel
    Avanil, Taeghas, Boeruine, Alamie, Mhoried, Cariele, Elinie, Osoerde, Aerenwe, Dhalaene (part of ghoere), Ghieste and Diemed. It lists border nations as the following: Mieres, brosengae talinie the five peaks thurazor dhosone tuarhieval the gorgons crown murkilad markazor the sielewode coeranys.

    As far as the whole discussion about 5 tribes, 12 tribes, people are mistaking this... .original canon birthright material explains that 5 tribes originally came from aduria and one from across the seas... the 5 are andu, brecht, vos, rjurik and masetian, with the basarji coming from another land... (or maybe basarji, masetian the other way around) however the houses of the andu are also refered to as tribes in various places.... but I have seen in no canon place the exact number of house tribes that I can distinctly remember, but I also have the number 12 stuck in my head from somewhere that I believe was from a tsr br product. But it does say that Roele formed the duchies from the original house tribes. So Raesene's post on the fact that there were 12 house tribes makes since, but I would expand that to say that the border nations may have been house tribes also, just not made into duchies (or at least the border nations that are human anyways). These may have been subtribes of the original house tribes that did not remain part of the house tribes after deismaar, due to the warlord of the house tribe being weakened and not able to keep them in check. Those being brosengae, dhosone and coeranys, with Mieres always being stated as a colony of the empire.

    btw I have transcribed the nations boundries according to the map onto a provincial map of anuire if someone will remind me how to get it posted on here, I'll send it.
    Last edited by Thorogood Roele; 08-14-2005 at 12:05 AM. Reason: expansion

  4. #24

    more on the tribes of anuire

    This information is a quote from "Tarazin the Gray" from Dragon 218

    "Tarazin agreed and attacked the settlements and camps of the Elin, the eighth house of the invading humans."

    Thus there has to be more than 5 tribes of the Andu.

  5. #25
    Junior Member Urban fox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelbialaska
    If Diemed and Roesone unite, then they are just as strong as Ghoere, so this doesn't mean that you need to be duke to hold power or even hold a duchy. Just look at Dhoesone compared to Cariele.

    The Atlas in the boxed sets mentions 12 duchies too. These are:

    Aerenwe
    Alamie
    Avanil
    Boeruine
    Cariele (Ruling family relocated to Coeranys)
    Diemed
    Elinie
    Mhoried
    Osoerde
    Taeghas (Ruling family in Brosengae?)
    Talinie
    And one more Duchy which was located in what is now Ghoere.

    In Book of Priestcraft we learn that there is a Barony of Ghieste in what land Ghoere has taken. Book of Regency just says that Ghoere is formed of two weaker kingdoms (which is used to describe a realm in Birthright).

    From what sources do we have Bhalaene and Ghieste as Duchies?

    Ghoere's history describes how the nation was formed from the 2 ruined duchies Bhalaene and Ghieste.

    http://www.bloodsilver.com/conservatory.php?aid=26


    You also forgot about Tuornon it was once part of Alamie, and the ruleing families the 2 countries are related.

  6. #26
    Originally posted by Thorogood Roele
    As far as the whole discussion about 5 tribes, 12 tribes, people are mistaking this... .original canon birthright material explains that 5 tribes originally came from aduria and one from across the seas... the 5 are andu, brecht, vos, rjurik and masetian, with the basarji coming from another land... (or maybe basarji, masetian the other way around) however the houses of the andu are also refered to as tribes in various places.... but I have seen in no canon place the exact number of house tribes that I can distinctly remember, but I also have the number 12 stuck in my head from somewhere that I believe was from a tsr br product. But it does say that Roele formed the duchies from the original house tribes. So Raesene's post on the fact that there were 12 house tribes makes since, but I would expand that to say that the border nations may have been house tribes also, just not made into duchies (or at least the border nations that are human anyways). These may have been subtribes of the original house tribes that did not remain part of the house tribes after deismaar, due to the warlord of the house tribe being weakened and not able to keep them in check. Those being brosengae, dhosone and coeranys, with Mieres always being stated as a colony of the empire.
    I have a pretty large collection of original 2nd Ed Birthright material, including all the contents of the campaign setting boxed set. I have studied and studied all the material regarding this issue, and I must agree with Thorogood Roele.

    According to the material I have, there were 6 total "tribes" that settled Cerilia. 5 of these "tribes" came from Aduria during the Flight from Shadow: The Andu (Anuireans), the Brecht peoples, the Reynir (Rjurik), the Vosgaard (Vos), and the Masetians (now believed to be extinct). The Basarji (Khinasi) came from some land "beyond the Sea of Dragons". I haven't found whether the 2nd Ed BR books mention exactly where this land "beyond the Sea of Dragons" is or what it is named.

    Regarding the formation of the Empire, the 2nd Ed BR material mentions that Roele formed them from many groups or "tribes" of the Andu. When the formation was finished, there were 12 Duchies of the Empire. I have also endlessly searched the material for how many "groups" or "tribes" of the Andu there originally were and what their names were. I found nothing; only that 12 Duchies were formed from 12 "tribes" or "houses" of the Andu. So, according to the 2nd Ed Birthright material, there were at least 12 "tribes" or "houses" of the Andu. There could quite possibly be more than 12 original groups/"tribes"/"houses" of the Andu.

    As for the 12 "tribes" or "houses" of the Andu, the 2nd Ed BR material mentions exactly what Angelbialaska said:

    Original post by Angelbialaska

    …the boxed sets mentions 12 duchies too. These are:

    Aerenwe
    Alamie
    Avanil
    Boeruine
    Cariele (Ruling family relocated to Coeranys)
    Diemed
    Elinie
    Mhoried
    Osoerde
    Taeghas (Ruling family in Brosengae?)
    Talinie
    And one more Duchy which was located in what is now Ghoere.
    The history for Ghoere was probably developed in light of the fact that original BR material is hard to find. So, there was an obvious lack of suitable reference material for which the history of Ghoere could be developed. And to give more understanding to those who developed Ghoere's history, the 2nd Ed Birthright material never mentions which Duchy it was that became part of Ghoere. So, writers at places like Bloodsilver.com did a very good job with what they had to go with. If you elect to go with what the original 2nd Ed BR material says about Ghoere, then the decision becomes: which country was one of the 12 Duchies? Ghieste or Bhalaene? Or, was it something else all together that was renamed into either Ghieste or Bhalaene before they were enveloped into Ghoere? However, if you elect to go closer to what Bloodsilver.com has written, then the list above of the 12 Duchies from the 2nd Ed BR material must be augmented.

    Back to the Andu/tribe confusion for a second: The 2nd Ed BR material liked to use the words "tribe" and "tribes" interchangeably when referring to the 6 original "tribes" and the "tribes" of the Andu. Thus, it is quite easy to see why so many people have confused the two topics. It took me a little note scribbling to get them straight...

    What the 2nd Ed BR material is definitely clear on is that there were 6 tribes of people that settled Cerilia after the Flight from Shadow. Again, the Andu, the Basarji, the Brecht, the Masetians, the Reynir, and the Vosgaard.

    I hope I've been able to add a little light to this confusion.... Or, am I beating a dead horse? I haven't found anywhere in the forums where a final decision on the matter has been made. If there has been a final decision already, then please let me know. Also, if there has, I would like to know what the decision was.

    Take it easy,
    Lae'Andril Rayn

  7. #27
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    Names can be so confusing

    I agree with LaeAndril Rayn and Thorogood Roele here. The "Five Tribes" were those that stood together against Azrai (Six migrated, but the Vos fought against the Five); the Houses of the Andu were a separate matter, the only details I can find are comments on the Deretha, the Mhora, the Elin (Dragon Mag); I've heard mention of the Aeren and the Boru... but that might be stuff we've invented here, not canon. It certainly seems like if these were the pre-existing political structures, it would have been easier for Roele to unite them rather than reinvent the wheel. It seems to me that he was involved in the last stage of turning a clan-based semi-nomadic people into a nation-state based agricultural people.

    As for Roesone and Diemed making a powerful nation if combined, this is true; however, it doesn't mean that Ghoere wasn't made of two duchies (there is more than one way to make a powerful state). Roesone cobbled together provinces from two old duchies (Aerenwe and Diemed) and has certainly developed these provinces beyond what old Diemed did. I feel that Diemed was probably one of the mightiest of the old duchies, comparable to Avanil and old Alamie.

  8. #28
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    But the Cariele's regent is an usurper?

    I think so.

  9. #29

    somewhat of a retractment

    I have all of the original BR material except for an elusive supposed mini adventure called "Varsks" something or other and the 1 issue of a comic book that they did. I have all the settings, domain books adventures dungeon and dragon mags free downloads from tsr and novels otherwise.

    Having said that, I have to change my previous statement slightly and say that the original material conflicts on the house of Andu tribes. The book of regency actually states that there were only 5 tribes of Andu. But Dragon magazine (article on Tarazin the Grey) states that Elin was the 6th house and one of the novels also says that the duchies were given to warlords of the tribes of andu that sided with Roele. The novel, though also says that Bhaelene and Ghieste were duchies at the time of Michael, so who knows. lol I guess just go with what you like is the answer. I rather like Raesene's chart on the original duchies and families, but I also like the idea that the other regions of anuire (ie coerany's etc) that were not duchies as listed in that chart being lesser houses that may verywell have not been populated enough to warrant a "duchy" status but were still awarded monarchy nobility status by roele, perhaps such as barons, counts marquis or whatever.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Thomas_Percy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelbialaska
    Below is the history that I have written up for Brosengae and Taeghas.
    I like Your story very much, I'll use it in my future games. Thanks.

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