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Thread: Size of Aebrynis
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06-01-1999, 06:09 AM #1lyndon@pobox.com (LyndonGuest
Size of Aebrynis
That is certainly a solution! I didn't do that because it would imply
either different composition of the planet (many times denser than
earth), or gravitational laws, and a rewrite of physics, and probably
of distance and size of the moon, and ...
For instance with that small a radius, rotational speed, and
hence corialis force and energy for storms should be reduced.
So, I think it opens up more problems than it solves ...
But it certainly is charming to play with! I like time zones.
Lyndon
On Tue, 1 Jun 1999 07:38:09 +0200, you wrote:
>
>Why don't you just consider the possibility of Aebrynis to be smaller in
>size compared to the Earth?
>I've made the assumption that the axial tilt of Aebrynis is about 23
>degrees, the same as the Earth's one (if you want less seasonal climatic
>differences you can reduce it). Given the climatic characteristics of
>Vosgaard, Rjurik, Khinasi, etc. I have argued that the polar circle passes
>in the middle of Hogunmark while the tropic on the northern shoeres of
>Shairde el-Mehare islands. With simple trigonometric calculuses I've come to
>a radius for Aebrynis of 2400 Km (1500 miles). So if you want to teleport in
>the evening from Stormpoint in Taeghas to Adara in Min Dhousai don't forget
>a torch, there's a difference of almost 4 hours (damned time zones!).
>
>
>Mauro Fasoli Italy
>
>
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06-01-1999, 06:37 AM #2
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Size of Aebrynis
Lyndon Baugh wrote:
>
> That is certainly a solution! I didn't do that because it would imply
> either different composition of the planet (many times denser than
> earth), or gravitational laws, and a rewrite of physics, and probably
> of distance and size of the moon, and ...
> For instance with that small a radius, rotational speed, and
> hence corialis force and energy for storms should be reduced.
> So, I think it opens up more problems than it solves ...
>
> But it certainly is charming to play with! I like time zones.
>
> Lyndon
OK, first I'd like to start by saying that I like to keep everything as
close to real world 'rules' as possible (gravity, physics, etc.). *But*,
I'd also like to add that the Worldbuilder's Guide (a TSR product)
accepts concept like planar (flat) and cubic worlds, and I think
infinite worlds as well, so I think you really wouldn't actually need to
reconfigure too much if you didn't want to. Just a thought
Thx,
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06-01-1999, 11:44 AM #3OlesensGuest
Size of Aebrynis
Also remember that the equator does not HAVE to run horizontal on our map. Why
not have the equator cut through off-the-map Aduria then pass half way between
the Golden Archipeligo and the Ajari Deeps Islands (Island States)? The compass
has not been invented yet so north really isn't defined yet. Also, what kind of
map is the one we hold of Cerilia? It isn't a curved map so is it equal-area or
equal-distance? There are no lines of latitude or logitude to work with.
I like the time zones thing, I think I'll use that on my PCs that like to use
the Travel blood ability.
> Why don't you just consider the possibility of Aebrynis to be smaller in
> size compared to the Earth?
> I've made the assumption that the axial tilt of Aebrynis is about 23
> degrees, the same as the Earth's one (if you want less seasonal climatic
> differences you can reduce it). Given the climatic characteristics of
> Vosgaard, Rjurik, Khinasi, etc. I have argued that the polar circle passes
> in the middle of Hogunmark while the tropic on the northern shoeres of
> Shairde el-Mehare islands. With simple trigonometric calculuses I've come to
> a radius for Aebrynis of 2400 Km (1500 miles). So if you want to teleport in
> the evening from Stormpoint in Taeghas to Adara in Min Dhousai don't forget
> a torch, there's a difference of almost 4 hours (damned time zones!).
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06-01-1999, 05:01 PM #4ryan.caveney@alum.mit.edGuest
Size of Aebrynis
On Tue, 1 Jun 1999, Lyndon Baugh wrote:
> That is certainly a solution! I didn't do that because it would imply
> either different composition of the planet (many times denser than
> earth), or gravitational laws, and a rewrite of physics,
We've already got one huge rewrite of physics: magic. Given that,
we can use it to eradicate the other problems. Mebhaighl is an energy
field of vast power and intensity that interpenetrates the planet and can
be manipulated to do prodigious amounts of work by those with high charges
(bloodlines) relative to that field. Make the total amount and strength
of the field high enough, and voila: more mass, higher density, closer to
Earth gravity. Of course, if you have dragons flying around, you should
really reduce gravity some to begin with. Need higher rotational speed?
Make the central ball of mebhaighl be spinning *faster* than you think
planet alone would, and dragging Aebrynis along. How did it get that way?
Maybe the mebhaighl is older than the planet: it is a domain with a
locally different "isospin" (its analog for the magic field) polarization
than the rest of space left over from the big bang, and the planet
accreted around it! Never underestimate the power of particle physics to
be made sufficiently weird to explain magic. ;) I mean, after all, what
is the QCD vacuum? "An energy field which surrounds us and penetrates us
and binds the universe together." =)
> and probably of distance and size of the moon, and ...
> For instance with that small a radius, rotational speed, and
> hence corialis force and energy for storms should be reduced.
>
> >With simple trigonometric calculuses I've come to
> >a radius for Aebrynis of 2400 Km (1500 miles).
> >Mauro Fasoli
Trivial solution: scale all linear distances by the radius of the
earth (roughly 6400km) divided by Mauro's calculated radius (roughly that
of Mars), or 2 and 2/3. Then multiply all areas and area densities (such
as size of province, population of province, number of men in the average
war card, etc.) by the square of that, or 7 and 1/9.
To make things simpler, decide that the area scale will be 5,
making warcards 1000 men and provinces 4500 to 6500 sq mi, and Aebrynis
84% of the earth's radius. For identical density, that's 84% of the
gravity, too, which as I mentioned above is probably a good thing. Also,
as far as provinces go, that means England (without Wales and Scotland)
drops from being 40-50 provinces to 8-10. This makes the Anuirean empire
much more impressive, Cerilia more of a continent, and BR realms more the
size of reasonable countries.
- --Ryan
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06-01-1999, 07:01 PM #5Pieter SleijpenGuest
Size of Aebrynis
ryan.caveney@alum.mit.edu wrote:
> much more impressive, Cerilia more of a continent, and BR realms more the
> size of reasonable countries.
>
> --Ryan
>
Hey, the Netherlands was a very powerful nation in the 16th century and
it was about as large as the average size of a BR domain. Besides,
German fiefs were also not much lager :-)
Anyway, a reduction in gravity would also have a biological effect.
Something I don't want to go into. It is a game, not some physicist
exersice: design an alien world according to all the laws of nature :-)
Though, I agree that the designers at TSR should take climate and other
geological processess (mountains, vulcano's) a little bit more into
account when designing worlds. It would not mean that much extra
research.
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06-01-1999, 08:08 PM #6ryan.caveney@alum.mit.edGuest
Size of Aebrynis
On Tue, 1 Jun 1999, Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
> Hey, the Netherlands was a very powerful nation in the 16th century and
Because it was raking in GBs from guilds abroad and sea trade
routes! Not because it had a lot of land to tax. I'd view it in BR as
rather like Endier or Ilien, but somewhat bigger; 14th century Italian
city states make decent models of one-province trade-based realms.
> it was about as large as the average size of a BR domain. Besides,
> German fiefs were also not much lager :-)
Well, yeah. But even in BR at the size scale stated in the rules,
there's no way to fit 300 province-owning domains into something the size
of the Holy Roman Empire. You can't have significantly smaller provinces
unless you want and can justify a much higher population density than in
the neighboring lands. One way to model the HRE would be to have a lot of
level 4 and 5 provinces ruled by mid-level nobles with the law holding
apportioned in 1-or-2-point chunks to minor landholders with single-digit
bloodlines, as some have suggested should be done in all BR realms to make
them feel more feudal.
> Anyway, a reduction in gravity would also have a biological effect.
> Something I don't want to go into.
Something I do want to get into, but don't know enough biology to
discuss competently. Can anyone out there help me?
> It is a game, not some physicist exersice: design an alien world
> according to all the laws of nature :-)
Ah, but the physics is a game! Also, the designing is where much
of the fun lies for me, and if the game world doesn't have laws of nature
I can define and stick to (and occasionally poke my players' earth-normal
assumptions with), it's nowhere near as satisfying for me. I'm not saying
that physics or biology have to be the *same* as they are on this earth --
indeed they can't be exactly -- I just require that they be *consistent*.
I can guess that it's probably similar for Lyndon since he worries about
this stuff too.
> Though, I agree that the designers at TSR should take climate and other
> geological processess (mountains, vulcano's) a little bit more into
> account when designing worlds. It would not mean that much extra
> research.
*grin* That's why I keep gathering books on geophysics that I
never have time to read...
- --Ryan
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06-01-1999, 08:28 PM #7OlesensGuest
Size of Aebrynis
Darkstar wrote:
> Simon Graindorge wrote:
>
> > I always liked the way Ruling (of a province) was handled in
Darkstar's
> > PBEM. Simply put (and maybe Darkstar can expand on this), when
ruling a
> > province, the regent was not allowed to use any extra modifiers
(RP/GB/etc)
> > to affect the dice roll. Thus, the higher the level of the province
becomes,
> > the harder it is to increase its level.
>
> I introduced the change to stop regents from ruling up provinces too
> quickly. Using the standard rules, and with a liberal application of
> RPs, it is theoretically possible to go from a level 1 province to a
> level ten province in just ten turns. In other words the population of
a
> province can increase from 1,000 to 100,000 in a little over 2 years,
> which is hardly a reasonable increase in my opinion. So I changed the
> rule action to forbid the use of RPs, and then later I altered it
again
> to add the target level of the province to the success roll. Then I
> modified it a third time to allow wizard with source holdings in the
> province to either support or hinder the rule attempt.
I personally like the level-hinders-success varitation. If you read the
BR
rulebook page right before the actions table (which comes right before
the action
descriptions) it speaks of using such a method. It may have been missed
when
typing the action descriptions. I think that the playtesters would have
noticed
the ease of ruling if it were that easy (assuming the level
hinderance). One
problem may be the way we play Birthright. It is my opinion that many
of a
regent's actions are spent in espionage or dealing with random events.
By taking
an espionage action every turn you really learn a lot about the world
around you.
I'd be willing to bet that a correctly played Roesone has to spend two
actions a
turn dealing with Ghoere. One action to find out about troop movements
and
another to deal with a Ghoerean espionage (which creates a random event)
or keep
Ghoere busy with creating random events in thier territory. After I've
finished
reading Debt of Honor (by Tom Clancy), I think we also let players get
away with
too much direct diplomacy. In most PBeMs, players are too open. If you
want to
form a non-agression treaty with another regent or you want to work out
a
trade-route taxation deal, simple letters won't cut it. Taking the
trade route
taxation example: Endier wants to trade in Diemed. The Duke wants
money. But in
real life, neither of them will say OK to just that. Diemed will want
as much
money as possible, or maybe Diemed will want to gain a little land from
Endier and
will use the trade taxation as a level for that strip of land.
Meanwhile, Endier
wants to pay as little as possible and wants to buy several areas of
land near
Diemed's major cities for building guilds. So they both do diplomacy
and a subtle
game of words takes place between ambassators. If you've read most any
Tom Clancy
type book you'll probably know what I mean. So anyway, that uses up
most of a
realm's actions. For Roesone, after dealing with Ghoere, Diemed, the
Straits of
Aerele Shipping, Rogr Aglondier, and High Mage Aelies; it's no wonder
the realm
can't manage to rule up its few level (2) provinces. They only cost 2
GB and 6 RP
to rule with a 60% chance of success. But Roesone should be too busy to
have the
time for that. Provinces CAN grow from nothing to large cities in a
matter of
seasons. But that takes tons of resources and more time, both of which
are
usually too precious to waste on getting a few more plebs to live in
your chunck
of rock.
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06-01-1999, 08:38 PM #8OlesensGuest
Size of Aebrynis
> > Anyway, a reduction in gravity would also have a biological effect.
> > Something I don't want to go into.
>
> Something I do want to get into, but don't know enough biology to
> discuss competently. Can anyone out there help me?
All living things on earth have to support several weights, namely gravity,
atmospheric preasure, and body weight. So to put it simply, less gravity =
creatures with less need for strong body structures like endo or exoskeletons.
IF you've ever read part of HG Well's book with the Martians (don't recall the
name), the Martians couldn't walk around outside thier walking robot things.
Mars is smaller than earth so creatures from Mars have weaker supporting
structures.
>
>
> > It is a game, not some physicist exersice: design an alien world
> > according to all the laws of nature :-)
>
> Ah, but the physics is a game! Also, the designing is where much
> of the fun lies for me, and if the game world doesn't have laws of nature
> I can define and stick to (and occasionally poke my players' earth-normal
> assumptions with), it's nowhere near as satisfying for me. I'm not saying
> that physics or biology have to be the *same* as they are on this earth --
> indeed they can't be exactly -- I just require that they be *consistent*.
> I can guess that it's probably similar for Lyndon since he worries about
> this stuff too.
Which raises a little question I've had. We refer to Earth as a scientific
planet as I just did. But other times we use earth meaning the land/soil.
Would people from other planets (assuming they spoke english) use earth like
that? Essetially, which came first, Earth or earth?
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06-01-1999, 09:03 PM #9SidhainGuest
Size of Aebrynis
>> Something I do want to get into, but don't know enough biology to
>> discuss competently. Can anyone out there help me?
>
>Various studies on astronauts have show that weightlessness (and various
>stages in between 1G and 0G) have many effects on human physiology..for
>example, Astronauts, upon returning to Earth were noted to be taller as a
>group, due to vertebrae spreading apart under those consitions. Its also
>been shown that broken bones do not heal as well in a weightless
>environment...(I DO realize ther eis a difference between 0G and any
>fraction of gravity, however, studies have shown these effects to exist
>even at reduced gravity.)
>
>Sean
>
Yes but your presuming that Abrynisian humans are just like earth humans, if
they had evolved on a light gravity world or higher the entire world might
be adapted to such differences.
I mean think about people Magic works in Birthright, Undead armies can walk
across the lands and there are Gods that show up physically to lead armies
into battle in such a world...Why would it have to fit "Earth physics"
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06-02-1999, 01:24 AM #10David Sean BrownGuest
Size of Aebrynis
> Because it was raking in GBs from guilds abroad and sea trade
> routes! Not because it had a lot of land to tax. I'd view it in BR as
> rather like Endier or Ilien, but somewhat bigger; 14th century Italian
> city states make decent models of one-province trade-based realms.
I'd agree with this assessment..If I recall, the Netherlands made its
fortune early on though trade, not the least of which came from the
Carribean..they mimic Endier quite will..
> > Anyway, a reduction in gravity would also have a biological effect.
> > Something I don't want to go into.
>
> Something I do want to get into, but don't know enough biology to
> discuss competently. Can anyone out there help me?
Various studies on astronauts have show that weightlessness (and various
stages in between 1G and 0G) have many effects on human physiology..for
example, Astronauts, upon returning to Earth were noted to be taller as a
group, due to vertebrae spreading apart under those consitions. Its also
been shown that broken bones do not heal as well in a weightless
environment...(I DO realize ther eis a difference between 0G and any
fraction of gravity, however, studies have shown these effects to exist
even at reduced gravity.)
Sean
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