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  1. #11
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    Green Knight writes:



    > Perhaps Cuiraécen was really a great champion of Haelyn, a fierce

    > and indomitable chap who braved any weather to cross the sea of

    > Cerilia to spread the light of the Allfather...eventually ascending

    > and becomming a god, the son of Haelyn and Nesirie.



    I like the idea that Cuiraécen is an ascended mortal. If that`s the case he

    may originate on some other continent of Aebrynis, and his true origin is

    simply unknown to any Cerilians who simply describe him in terms more in

    keeping with their understanding of the nature of the gods.



    Cuiraécen`s ascension and description as the "son" of Haelyn and Nesirie

    could be more figurative than literal. After all, the gods don`t need to

    have a biology in the same way that mortals would. The process of elevating

    a human to godly status might have involved the combined efforts of those

    two "parents" whose respective contribution makes that former human warrior

    their "son" in the divine sense.



    If one views Cuiraécen in this light it probably makes more sense that his

    original mortal form is not a Cerilian because if he were his ascension

    would probably have inspired a whole set of myths and legends. Besides, it

    would definitely have attracted the attention of the Gorgon, the Magian, and

    a few of the other awnsheghlien who seem to have ascension as a goal or who

    are at least attentive to the process.



    Gary

  2. #12
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    QUOTE (RaspK_FOG @ Jan 11 2005, 01:38 PM)
    Finally, the reason 2 deities arose from Azrai's power is pretty obvious: if you are the sole evil deity and were a match for 6 other deities, of course you are very powerful and thus have a stronger "essence". Don't forget that the Gorgon got a huge bloodline at the same time!


    Yeah, and given the number of very powerful awnsheghlien, the cold rider etc that got created, it's no wonder why those 2 gods are actually pretty weak when compared to their 9 opponents...
    I also always figured that a great deal of Azrai's essence blasted directly into the land and Shadow World, not just into mortals at Deismaar. This is the seed of blight planted that continues to spread like a plague 1500 years later.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Bjorn,
    I think your ideas concerning the old gods (weakened and bitter, but still hangin' around) are interesting. IMO, though, when the gods died, people would know it. Why? Because all of their clerics would suddenly be "cut off" from their sources of divine power. In the D&D world, this isn't some subtle question of faith and doubt, it's a blatant effect. The village priest can't perform miracles anymore. Nor can the one in the next village, or at the big temple in town, etc. In D&D, people don't need the kind of human faith that humans do IRL - they have priests performing divine magic as proof of their connection to a deity or divine power of some sort (in BR, this is always a deity's power). If Earth had such regular performances, faith would be a lot less sticky, and religions would be much more powerful (if you can imagine that).


    I've always viewed the entire Cerilian pantheon, as described in the original BR material, as a scholarly/canonical view created mainly during the Anuirean Empire era. So I assume that all of it is very Cerilian-centered - as far as most Cerilian humans are concerned, their gods are the only human gods.

    I think it's important as a world designer to step back from that limited and biased perspective and use your "gods-eye." Each of the old gods had one tribe of Adurian humans to whom they were a patron deity. One tribe per diety sounds very much to me like the "barbarians" of ancient Europe, while Azrai seems more like a monotheistic deity, his Adurian Empire similar to Constantine's Rome. I can't help but compare Azrai to the Old Testament Judeo-Chrisitian god, who encourages his people to systematically suppress and eventually destroy any rival gods of neighboring lands when his people are strong enough to do so. Poor Baal gets struck down quite a lot... :lol:

    Realistically, if there are other humans on Aebrynis who didn't come from Aduria, it's almost certain that they would have their own patron gods and/or pantheons. While it's more work to make these deities, ultimately a campaign on a different continent will feel far more distinct and flavorful if the deities are equally distinct, rather than being variants of Cerilian deities.

    Aduria is an interesting case, since the Cerilian deities and their people came from here, and the Anuirean Empire came back to colonize the northern shores centuries after Deismaar. Here we have a good argument for the Cerilian deities exisiting in some form or another - although Kreisha and Belinik are so blatantly Vos that they'd need a LOT of tweaking to fit into any of my concepts of Aduria.

    Perhaps there were other deific successors to Azrai, Adurian gods unknown to Cerilians. I envision Azrai's contentious nature making him fracture and splinter into shards more than the other gods - no mortal successor could ever hold so much conflicting energy in one being, and so Azrai's successors would be more numerous and seperate than the other new gods.

    Some food for thought.

    Osprey

  4. #14
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    This is great stuff people!

    I already like the Homebrew Forum...and it has a cool name too!

    B
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

  5. #15
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    I like the fact that gods can die, In one game i ran a powerfull wizard was trying to bring about azrai's ressurection and the party were unwitting dupes in bringing it about. I may go back to running it, but they were becoming suspicious and would likely eventualy try and stop the ressurection.

    As for djaper that likely came about shortly after daesmar when the faiths were in chaos and the new and old priests were struggeling for power. In cerilia the new faith won out but in djaper the old priesthood won out. Maybe they now practice lesser magic to keep control of the priesthoods power claiming it is the gift of their god.
    MORNINGSTAR

  6. #16
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    I prefer to think of Azrai as the lord of Chaos and Deception. This chaos includes change since change is from inconsistency and turmoil, it is also a pretty good fit with info on Azrai creating many things presented in Blood Spawn. Since change makes people uneasy he got associated with evil, although he has a wicked tendency - hey some one has to be the big bad evil.
    Duane Eggert

  7. #17
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    Hi,

    When contemplating how many gods etc. I thought it would also be useful to share some ideas about the origins of the gods and how they interact with the world. This also touches in on such matters as creation myths and such, but since eveything sort of influences the other, I find it appropriate for this thread.

    These are just some quick thoughts from the top of my head:

    At some point the world was created. Doesn't really matter how; from nothingness, chaos, from the left leg of a really big bird or whatever. The earth - Aebrynis - was created, the sky was created, and if you like the underworld was created.

    In the beginning (before the sundering), the world was a very different place, where mortals and spirits interacted more freely. I envision a world without any really powerful gods residing in extraplanar realms, but a set of spirits of varying power residing in the physical world.

    Eventually some of the more powerful spirits came to be worshipped, and found that worship was desirable, for it gave them power and purpose. Eventually these powerful beings, which were very closely linked to the world and the elements, were able to transcend and create extraplanar aboves (the Inner Planes).

    They were still not true gods in the "modern" sense, but rather powerful elemental lords. I see their worship as very druidish. Spirits continued to be imporant and profilic.

    The can the Sundering, which forced a division between the spirit world and the "real" world. Note that the spirit worls is not the SW of today, this was long before it got corrupted. This meant that spirits and mortals got separated from each other, and their days of free interaction was over.

    Well, have to eat now. More later.

    B
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

  8. #18
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    When contemplating how many gods etc. I thought it would also be useful to share some ideas about the origins of the gods and how they interact with the world. This also touches in on such matters as creation myths and such, but since eveything sort of influences the other, I find it appropriate for this thread.
    The official view on this matter can be found in the Blood Spawn suppliment. It reads...

    The sages say that long ago, perhaps before humanity existed on Aebrynis, the world of Daylight and the world of Shadow were as one. The landscape of Aebrynis had not completely formed then, and the world could change according to its own rules, without rhyme or reason. A lake might form where a mountain had been, white glaciers moved over deserts, and rivers flowed through the sky. This was a time before the gods, but it ultimately resulted in their creation.

    The gods, it is believed, were formed out of the land, and their natures bound them to it. Not wishing their natures to change without warning, as did the land, they began to enforce their will upon the world. Mountains, rivers, shores, and seas all took shape and stayed constant, bent to the will of the young gods. But one god delighted in the ever-changing world and refused to bind his will and his being to the land. That god became Lord of Shadow, the god of Chaos and Change. He became Azrai.

    Little is known of the gods’ earliest years in this time before humans and, perhaps, before elves. Giants walked the earth along with near-immortal beasts and other beings lost to the passage of time. It is said, however, that in the beginning Azrai alone of the gods willed change and evolution into being. If this is true, the race of humanity—as well as many of the other races now inhabiting Aebrynis—owe their existence to him.

    The elements of permanence and transience—light and shadow—warred in those early days, and their battles grew so great that a rift formed between the land of Shadow and the land of Daylight. Passage between the two was still possible, even common, in those days, but soon (as gods measure time) the Shadow World and the world of Aebrynis solidified their borders. Aebrynis remained constant, only transforming in response to the actions of its inhabitants over long periods, while the Shadow World remained mutable and ever-changing.

    Then came Deismaar, the destruction of the gods, and the cleaving of the world. The Shadow World became a place of fear and strange tales for those remaining on Aebrynis and now, more than fifteen hundred years later, only a scant number of people know more than a few tales of the Shadow World and its inhabitants. The Shadow World remains in flux. Halflings alone of Cerilia’s races may still pass freely between the two worlds and, since halflings fled the Shadow World in response to a terror they will not reveal, most are loathe to do so. And even a halfling would find it difficult to navigate the ever-changing land of Shadow.
    Let me claim your Birthright!!

  9. #19
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    Yes, I've already read that part several times, and its a good starting point.

    However, I'd like to flesh it out more. Partially because I want to see how the different parts of Aebrynis developed their gods and such. If Djapar is radically different from Cerilia, I want to know why.

    B
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

  10. #20
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    I think as far as the standard gods (those worshipped in Aduria and Cerilia) go, they were around before humanity, back in the time when monsters ruled Aebrynis.

    The novel Greatheat talks about how Azrai created the beast-men, so I'd assume that humanity and the other races came about much the same way. The elves seem to be the main exception to this rule, having appeared in much the same way as the gods themselves.
    Let me claim your Birthright!!

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