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  1. #1
    Sidhain
    Guest

    I know its just life, but ...

    Well I am going to respond to this by snippping everything and talking about
    concepts.
    I am a shy quiet person except for gaming or when in shcoll whatever the
    topic of the class is. I will tend to post here quite a bit, but I would
    prefer it actually be information, ideas , communication about things people
    want to here, instead of mindless babble. Requiring people to post leads to
    people babbling and an increase in off topic subject.
    (Mind you I don't mind --off topic posts-- you see in a social engagement
    one doesn't have a defined "topic" it's typically talking aobut whatever
    comes to mind and seems important.)
    However by the same token I don't feel that asking for "Good Idea" or "I
    don't like it " or some minor post of sorts is asking too much from
    everyone. I don't like rules that "require" someone to post. That should be
    left to there own discretion..




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  2. #2
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    I know its just life, but ...

    Sindre Berg wrote:
    > I also feel rather strong about this. I don't really see the problem with lots of lurkers on this list, it is the same with lots of other lists too and they don't do any harm.<

    Very true, personally I don't have a problem with lurkers PER SE either.
    If people just want to hang out and spy on what others are doing, thats
    their business, and I don't care to be honest. Actually, as the
    administrator, I have invited people to do so. But there is a limit to
    that invitation, because we are all adults here. This forum is just
    like every other social activity, and being on the net does not excuse
    an individual's responsibilities and obligations to their cybermates.
    Remember, there are real people on the other end of that address.
    There are rules in any social engagement, usually unspoken, and others
    expect participants to respect those rules. If you've overstayed your
    welcome, its either time to move on or become involved in the group so
    that they can enjoy your ideas.

    *Personally*, I don't feel very comfortable hanging with a group without
    participating in it - it makes me feel excluded - I join groups/mailing
    lists to interact with my fellow human beings I otherwise normally
    wouldn't be able to; it also makes other people feel uncomfortable to
    have 'hanger-ons'. Did you just hang around the other kids at the
    playground when you were in elementary school? Or did a kind soul not
    ask you if you wanted to join and play with them? Did you then just sit
    like an inanimate lump, playing but not trying to make friends?

    I'm working on the same principle.

    I'm trying to stop a potential problem from persising and to simplfy
    another job. Tommy Ashton (I believe) wrote something to the effect
    that "I used to post, but since I received no interest from the other
    members of this list, I stopped posting ." Others, too, in my 2 year membership here have voiced
    similar sentiments.

    This is NOT going to happen on any list I run. Everyone has a say, and
    I want them to feel at home and that they have a place here - however
    small - in my little corner of cyberspace.

    Moreover, since we can't depend on anyone from on up high to give us our
    BR fix, its up to us. By ensuring that most everyone is involved in
    that endeavour, I can feel pride (at least) that *something* is being
    done to keep the best TSR campaign breathing. Spreading the work around
    will make it easier on all of us - and I'm sure people like Ian will
    really appreciate a little help in this regard. Contributors to this
    list want to play BR too, ya know. I fully intend for this site to be
    the 'voice of revival' for BR, and I'm expecting others to help me out.
    I'm NOT going to do this all by myself. I'm humbled by people like Ian
    who tirelessly work their butts off, giving freely to everyone, just to
    do their part in filling in the holes left by the designers. You
    shouldn't expect to read their material and give nothing back to them.

    That's just not right.

    All I require from every member is that they check in at least *twice a
    year*, if only to say: "Thank you for your hard work!" or just to say
    "Hi, I'm still here, don't forget me!". It isn't really hard, even for
    people with 3 jobs AND who have a little social life outside of this
    list (like me). I do more often than twice a year.

    If you don't contribute, whats the difference if you're a member or not?
    You're not doing anything here anyways, and therefore what have you
    lost? Plus, it also helps me to distinguish who has left, but hasn't
    really unsubscribed - in other words, it keeps the membership list up to
    date. Need I remind everyone what happened with the *previous*
    administrator? This is the thing I'm talking about. If all you really
    want to do is mine this list for great BR ideas, just subscribe to the
    digest mode of this list - you get everything in one lump mail, and
    don't have to get sore fingers pressing the delete key all the time,
    every day.

    And a final qualifier - its not like I'm going to unsubscribe a person
    who just subsribed 10 minutes ago and hasn't posted anything yet. Or,
    people because they vented a little anger once in a blue moon.
    I will give plenty of warning. I'm not going to go around and gleefully
    get my kicks out of *@$#%ing people off. Give me a little credit.
    Plus, I didn't say you couldn't rejoin afterwards - ask me nicely, and
    if you do you'll get back on.

    > There are several reasons for this, first some people do not "dare" to post on this list either because of language barriers or age or similar.<

    I sincerely hope not, because if anyone does intimidate people in the
    above regards, they will lose their membership without recourse. I
    don't want people like that in any group I lead. Honestly, though, I
    don't think the above has been (or ever will be) a problem on this list.
    If there ARE any current members suffering under this false
    misconception, stop - its not helping anyone. We will understand and
    allow for mistakes to be made.

    Cheers,
    Darren
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  3. #3
    Christopher Kira
    Guest

    I know its just life, but ...

    Ok... I just KNOW I am going to regret this...

    >But there is a limit to that invitation, because we are all adults here.
    This forum is just
    > like every other social activity, and being on the net does not excuse
    > an individual's responsibilities and obligations to their cybermates.
    > Remember, there are real people on the other end of that address.
    > There are rules in any social engagement, usually unspoken, and others
    > expect participants to respect those rules. If you've overstayed your
    > welcome, its either time to move on or become involved in the group so
    > that they can enjoy your ideas.

    I wasn't aware that when I signed up for this list, that I was obligated to
    fulfill my quota of
    postings. That's what we are talking about now, a quota. I watched this
    evolve from
    possibly getting rid of people who don't contribute to suggested guideline
    of 2 posts
    a year by a candidate for an admin position.

    No no no no no! In life, as been evident here, a social engagement can have
    a variety
    of people. At social engagements, you'll have your shy or quiet people, and
    while
    they are sometimes forced into conversation (through someone talking to
    them), generally
    they are left alone. Actually, now that I think about it, there are too
    many social engagements
    for this rule to cover.

    I don't think someone who doesn't speak out based on a quota should be
    punished by elimination
    from a list. That's the whole stickler point with me, really. It is
    possible that one day, a lurker might
    contribute. It is not anyone's obligation to live up to a quota on the
    list. There are quiet people
    at any event, so why can't they be here?

    > *Personally*, I don't feel very comfortable hanging with a group without
    > participating in it - it makes me feel excluded - I join groups/mailing
    > lists to interact with my fellow human beings I otherwise normally
    > wouldn't be able to; it also makes other people feel uncomfortable to
    > have 'hanger-ons'. Did you just hang around the other kids at the
    > playground when you were in elementary school? Or did a kind soul not
    > ask you if you wanted to join and play with them? Did you then just sit
    > like an inanimate lump, playing but not trying to make friends?

    Actually, when *I* was in elementary school, I interacted with a closeknit
    group
    within an already closeknit group. It was rare to see a person stand up and
    ask
    someone outside of the circle to "play with them"

    I suppose that's beside the point. I see the good intention here....
    encouraging everyone
    to participate helps to engender a stronger relationship (sometimes... this
    isn't always true)
    But the fact remains that people are sometimes uncomfortable with posting
    their ideas (which may or may
    not be helped by a quota... I would venture to say it would help some, and
    would not encourage
    others). Or they might have nothing to contribute. I shudder to think of
    loading my mail browser
    to see induced "me too" messages rather than posts that people *wanted* to
    post.

    I question why the lurkers bother you so much. You interact within a circle
    on here. Until this
    issue, few people really gave a care to the fact that people lurked and
    listened. Those people
    are valued members because they take the ideas that others give, and use
    them in their
    own games, or give them to others.... that spreads the word as much as this
    list does. I don't
    comprehend why they should have to post to satisfy any one person.

    Already this lurker issue has cause people to speak up and state that they
    will *leave* if we get to
    the stage where lurkers have to post a certain amount of times, or that they
    have to speak up more
    often. I don't think this was anyone's goal, but we're there now, and it's
    time to put this sucker to
    rest.

    > This is NOT going to happen on any list I run. Everyone has a say, and
    > I want them to feel at home and that they have a place here - however
    > small - in my little corner of cyberspace.

    >Spreading the work around
    > will make it easier on all of us - and I'm sure people like Ian will
    > really appreciate a little help in this regard. Contributors to this
    > list want to play BR too, ya know. I fully intend for this site to be
    > the 'voice of revival' for BR, and I'm expecting others to help me out.
    > I'm NOT going to do this all by myself. I'm humbled by people like Ian
    > who tirelessly work their butts off, giving freely to everyone, just to
    > do their part in filling in the holes left by the designers. You
    > shouldn't expect to read their material and give nothing back to them.

    You know, when I do something (like a supplement) for BROCP or for
    the people of this list, I do not expect to get anything back. That isn't a
    bad
    thing... as a writer I get enjoyment knowing that work was the best I could
    do,
    and I don't need the self-gratification of getting feedback. I appreciate
    it when
    it does come in, but it isn't a necessity. I also know that BR can be
    revived simply
    by people using their idea in their game, and spreading the word via their
    players.
    There is more than one way to accomplish a revival. Getting the word out is
    important.... and there are many ways to do that. Other than that, no one
    really has
    the right to expect anything of anyone else. People have to volunteer, and
    you are
    going to alienate more people than you draw in with your policies. Almost
    universally,
    people have disagreed with the lurker policy you put forth. Even most of
    the people
    who supported your bid to be admin, stated that they did not agree with that
    part of the
    policy you put forth.

    > If you don't contribute, whats the difference if you're a member or not?

    Well... I'd imagine people want to read up on the ideas and possibly
    use them in their games. I don't see anything wrong with that.

    > You're not doing anything here anyways, and therefore what have you
    > lost?

    But they are, and I think I've made my belief clear in that, so I see no
    need
    to reiterate.

    I feel lurkers should be allowed WITHOUT QUOTA on the list.. in whatever
    form they
    want it, digest, or individual. I think even the lurker can prove to be a
    valued member
    of our community.

    I don't think you are a bad person, but I do think the masses are speaking
    out in a loud and
    clear voice that they will not tolerate the extinction of the lurker.

    CK


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  4. #4
    Dave Lebert
    Guest

    I know its just life, but ...

    Jim Cooper wrote:

    >
    >
    > Moreover, since we can't depend on anyone from on up high to give us our
    > BR fix, its up to us. By ensuring that most everyone is involved in
    > that endeavour, I can feel pride (at least) that *something* is being
    > done to keep the best TSR campaign breathing. Spreading the work around
    > will make it easier on all of us - and I'm sure people like Ian will
    > really appreciate a little help in this regard. Contributors to this
    > list want to play BR too, ya know. I fully intend for this site to be
    > the 'voice of revival' for BR, and I'm expecting others to help me out.
    > I'm NOT going to do this all by myself. I'm humbled by people like Ian
    > who tirelessly work their butts off, giving freely to everyone, just to
    > do their part in filling in the holes left by the designers. You
    > shouldn't expect to read their material and give nothing back to them.
    >

    You just don't get it do you? I've been on the list for almost two years. I don't post twice a year since I don't have an active BR campaign and don't have time to work on
    something I am not currently playing. But eliminating me and 70% of the rest of the list isn't doing *something* to keep BR alive, instead it's driving the final nails into the
    coffin.

    I sincerely hope you do not become ADMIN since your totalitarion views and obnoxiousness will end up killing this list.

    Dave Lebert
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