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Thread: I know its just life, but ...
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05-28-1999, 02:09 PM #1SidhainGuest
I know its just life, but ...
Well I am going to respond to this by snippping everything and talking about
concepts.
I am a shy quiet person except for gaming or when in shcoll whatever the
topic of the class is. I will tend to post here quite a bit, but I would
prefer it actually be information, ideas , communication about things people
want to here, instead of mindless babble. Requiring people to post leads to
people babbling and an increase in off topic subject.
(Mind you I don't mind --off topic posts-- you see in a social engagement
one doesn't have a defined "topic" it's typically talking aobut whatever
comes to mind and seems important.)
However by the same token I don't feel that asking for "Good Idea" or "I
don't like it " or some minor post of sorts is asking too much from
everyone. I don't like rules that "require" someone to post. That should be
left to there own discretion..
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05-28-1999, 06:08 PM #2Jim CooperGuest
I know its just life, but ...
Sindre Berg wrote:
> I also feel rather strong about this. I don't really see the problem with lots of lurkers on this list, it is the same with lots of other lists too and they don't do any harm.<
Very true, personally I don't have a problem with lurkers PER SE either.
If people just want to hang out and spy on what others are doing, thats
their business, and I don't care to be honest. Actually, as the
administrator, I have invited people to do so. But there is a limit to
that invitation, because we are all adults here. This forum is just
like every other social activity, and being on the net does not excuse
an individual's responsibilities and obligations to their cybermates.
Remember, there are real people on the other end of that address.
There are rules in any social engagement, usually unspoken, and others
expect participants to respect those rules. If you've overstayed your
welcome, its either time to move on or become involved in the group so
that they can enjoy your ideas.
*Personally*, I don't feel very comfortable hanging with a group without
participating in it - it makes me feel excluded - I join groups/mailing
lists to interact with my fellow human beings I otherwise normally
wouldn't be able to; it also makes other people feel uncomfortable to
have 'hanger-ons'. Did you just hang around the other kids at the
playground when you were in elementary school? Or did a kind soul not
ask you if you wanted to join and play with them? Did you then just sit
like an inanimate lump, playing but not trying to make friends?
I'm working on the same principle.
I'm trying to stop a potential problem from persising and to simplfy
another job. Tommy Ashton (I believe) wrote something to the effect
that "I used to post, but since I received no interest from the other
members of this list, I stopped posting ." Others, too, in my 2 year membership here have voiced
similar sentiments.
This is NOT going to happen on any list I run. Everyone has a say, and
I want them to feel at home and that they have a place here - however
small - in my little corner of cyberspace.
Moreover, since we can't depend on anyone from on up high to give us our
BR fix, its up to us. By ensuring that most everyone is involved in
that endeavour, I can feel pride (at least) that *something* is being
done to keep the best TSR campaign breathing. Spreading the work around
will make it easier on all of us - and I'm sure people like Ian will
really appreciate a little help in this regard. Contributors to this
list want to play BR too, ya know. I fully intend for this site to be
the 'voice of revival' for BR, and I'm expecting others to help me out.
I'm NOT going to do this all by myself. I'm humbled by people like Ian
who tirelessly work their butts off, giving freely to everyone, just to
do their part in filling in the holes left by the designers. You
shouldn't expect to read their material and give nothing back to them.
That's just not right.
All I require from every member is that they check in at least *twice a
year*, if only to say: "Thank you for your hard work!" or just to say
"Hi, I'm still here, don't forget me!". It isn't really hard, even for
people with 3 jobs AND who have a little social life outside of this
list (like me). I do more often than twice a year.
If you don't contribute, whats the difference if you're a member or not?
You're not doing anything here anyways, and therefore what have you
lost? Plus, it also helps me to distinguish who has left, but hasn't
really unsubscribed - in other words, it keeps the membership list up to
date. Need I remind everyone what happened with the *previous*
administrator? This is the thing I'm talking about. If all you really
want to do is mine this list for great BR ideas, just subscribe to the
digest mode of this list - you get everything in one lump mail, and
don't have to get sore fingers pressing the delete key all the time,
every day.
And a final qualifier - its not like I'm going to unsubscribe a person
who just subsribed 10 minutes ago and hasn't posted anything yet. Or,
people because they vented a little anger once in a blue moon.
I will give plenty of warning. I'm not going to go around and gleefully
get my kicks out of *@$#%ing people off. Give me a little credit.
Plus, I didn't say you couldn't rejoin afterwards - ask me nicely, and
if you do you'll get back on.
> There are several reasons for this, first some people do not "dare" to post on this list either because of language barriers or age or similar.<
I sincerely hope not, because if anyone does intimidate people in the
above regards, they will lose their membership without recourse. I
don't want people like that in any group I lead. Honestly, though, I
don't think the above has been (or ever will be) a problem on this list.
If there ARE any current members suffering under this false
misconception, stop - its not helping anyone. We will understand and
allow for mistakes to be made.
Cheers,
Darren
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05-28-1999, 06:51 PM #3Christopher KiraGuest
I know its just life, but ...
Ok... I just KNOW I am going to regret this...
>But there is a limit to that invitation, because we are all adults here.
This forum is just
> like every other social activity, and being on the net does not excuse
> an individual's responsibilities and obligations to their cybermates.
> Remember, there are real people on the other end of that address.
> There are rules in any social engagement, usually unspoken, and others
> expect participants to respect those rules. If you've overstayed your
> welcome, its either time to move on or become involved in the group so
> that they can enjoy your ideas.
I wasn't aware that when I signed up for this list, that I was obligated to
fulfill my quota of
postings. That's what we are talking about now, a quota. I watched this
evolve from
possibly getting rid of people who don't contribute to suggested guideline
of 2 posts
a year by a candidate for an admin position.
No no no no no! In life, as been evident here, a social engagement can have
a variety
of people. At social engagements, you'll have your shy or quiet people, and
while
they are sometimes forced into conversation (through someone talking to
them), generally
they are left alone. Actually, now that I think about it, there are too
many social engagements
for this rule to cover.
I don't think someone who doesn't speak out based on a quota should be
punished by elimination
from a list. That's the whole stickler point with me, really. It is
possible that one day, a lurker might
contribute. It is not anyone's obligation to live up to a quota on the
list. There are quiet people
at any event, so why can't they be here?
> *Personally*, I don't feel very comfortable hanging with a group without
> participating in it - it makes me feel excluded - I join groups/mailing
> lists to interact with my fellow human beings I otherwise normally
> wouldn't be able to; it also makes other people feel uncomfortable to
> have 'hanger-ons'. Did you just hang around the other kids at the
> playground when you were in elementary school? Or did a kind soul not
> ask you if you wanted to join and play with them? Did you then just sit
> like an inanimate lump, playing but not trying to make friends?
Actually, when *I* was in elementary school, I interacted with a closeknit
group
within an already closeknit group. It was rare to see a person stand up and
ask
someone outside of the circle to "play with them"
I suppose that's beside the point. I see the good intention here....
encouraging everyone
to participate helps to engender a stronger relationship (sometimes... this
isn't always true)
But the fact remains that people are sometimes uncomfortable with posting
their ideas (which may or may
not be helped by a quota... I would venture to say it would help some, and
would not encourage
others). Or they might have nothing to contribute. I shudder to think of
loading my mail browser
to see induced "me too" messages rather than posts that people *wanted* to
post.
I question why the lurkers bother you so much. You interact within a circle
on here. Until this
issue, few people really gave a care to the fact that people lurked and
listened. Those people
are valued members because they take the ideas that others give, and use
them in their
own games, or give them to others.... that spreads the word as much as this
list does. I don't
comprehend why they should have to post to satisfy any one person.
Already this lurker issue has cause people to speak up and state that they
will *leave* if we get to
the stage where lurkers have to post a certain amount of times, or that they
have to speak up more
often. I don't think this was anyone's goal, but we're there now, and it's
time to put this sucker to
rest.
> This is NOT going to happen on any list I run. Everyone has a say, and
> I want them to feel at home and that they have a place here - however
> small - in my little corner of cyberspace.
>Spreading the work around
> will make it easier on all of us - and I'm sure people like Ian will
> really appreciate a little help in this regard. Contributors to this
> list want to play BR too, ya know. I fully intend for this site to be
> the 'voice of revival' for BR, and I'm expecting others to help me out.
> I'm NOT going to do this all by myself. I'm humbled by people like Ian
> who tirelessly work their butts off, giving freely to everyone, just to
> do their part in filling in the holes left by the designers. You
> shouldn't expect to read their material and give nothing back to them.
You know, when I do something (like a supplement) for BROCP or for
the people of this list, I do not expect to get anything back. That isn't a
bad
thing... as a writer I get enjoyment knowing that work was the best I could
do,
and I don't need the self-gratification of getting feedback. I appreciate
it when
it does come in, but it isn't a necessity. I also know that BR can be
revived simply
by people using their idea in their game, and spreading the word via their
players.
There is more than one way to accomplish a revival. Getting the word out is
important.... and there are many ways to do that. Other than that, no one
really has
the right to expect anything of anyone else. People have to volunteer, and
you are
going to alienate more people than you draw in with your policies. Almost
universally,
people have disagreed with the lurker policy you put forth. Even most of
the people
who supported your bid to be admin, stated that they did not agree with that
part of the
policy you put forth.
> If you don't contribute, whats the difference if you're a member or not?
Well... I'd imagine people want to read up on the ideas and possibly
use them in their games. I don't see anything wrong with that.
> You're not doing anything here anyways, and therefore what have you
> lost?
But they are, and I think I've made my belief clear in that, so I see no
need
to reiterate.
I feel lurkers should be allowed WITHOUT QUOTA on the list.. in whatever
form they
want it, digest, or individual. I think even the lurker can prove to be a
valued member
of our community.
I don't think you are a bad person, but I do think the masses are speaking
out in a loud and
clear voice that they will not tolerate the extinction of the lurker.
CK
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05-29-1999, 05:17 AM #4Dave LebertGuest
I know its just life, but ...
Jim Cooper wrote:
>
>
> Moreover, since we can't depend on anyone from on up high to give us our
> BR fix, its up to us. By ensuring that most everyone is involved in
> that endeavour, I can feel pride (at least) that *something* is being
> done to keep the best TSR campaign breathing. Spreading the work around
> will make it easier on all of us - and I'm sure people like Ian will
> really appreciate a little help in this regard. Contributors to this
> list want to play BR too, ya know. I fully intend for this site to be
> the 'voice of revival' for BR, and I'm expecting others to help me out.
> I'm NOT going to do this all by myself. I'm humbled by people like Ian
> who tirelessly work their butts off, giving freely to everyone, just to
> do their part in filling in the holes left by the designers. You
> shouldn't expect to read their material and give nothing back to them.
>
You just don't get it do you? I've been on the list for almost two years. I don't post twice a year since I don't have an active BR campaign and don't have time to work on
something I am not currently playing. But eliminating me and 70% of the rest of the list isn't doing *something* to keep BR alive, instead it's driving the final nails into the
coffin.
I sincerely hope you do not become ADMIN since your totalitarion views and obnoxiousness will end up killing this list.
Dave Lebert
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