Economic Situation - To be a Ne

[WILLELA@aol.co]

Andrew [olesens@bellatlantic.net(olesens)] suggests we make the fall of a
guild a cause of a Matter of Justice. As he says, his idea is a bit crude.
It's certainly an area where we can expand the rules, but not clear it's
really needed.
In history, the guilds were frequently attempts to suppress competitors.
Their demise was frequently good news to the local economy (tho not to guild
members, and whatever politicians they had been supporting.) The Law
holdings' loss of revenue from guilds would seem to simulate this well enough.
& trade was a relatively small amount of the economy at that time. Even
the most involved areas largely were self sufficient. A guild disaster was
no major blow. Indeed, most major trade shocks did not affect guild
organization at all. Hostile Turks could really hurt the italian economy,
but the various guilds there continued to function.
It should also be noted that nearly all the government "solutions" to
such a situation are in fact going to make the situation worse. About the
only exception is where the government caused the problem in the 1st place
and now stops interfering.
Better be careful before finalizing anything here.
Yours for deeper dungeons
David Argall

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 4/20/99 2:48:10 PM Central Daylight Time,
olesens@bellatlantic.net writes:

> When rulers threaten thier guilders the guilders quite often come back
> with a comment on how the kingdom's economy would collapse without the
> guilds. The basic BR rules fail to cover that so I've come with this
>
They may but they are wrong.

I don't see Birthright kingdoms taxing people based on income. When the tax
collector comes, they pay. Period. If they don't have it, then they start
donating chickens. The tax collector does not care in the least if they have
a job or not. Remember most people DO NOT work for guilds. They are
farmers. This is not a city-based civilization.

For instance, I see severe taxation as truely SEVERE. The tax collector and
his thugs shows up, "knock, knock".

Hapless peasant, "Who's there?"

Thugs, "Uh... Pizza."

Peasant, "Great! Come in!"

::bash, punch, whack, sobbing sounds:: "The king would like to express his
thanks for you generous donation to the throne. If you have any questions,
you may take it up with your duly appointed local law enforcement official."
(high law holding? ignor angry peasants)

Life goes on. So the king shuts down the local guildmaster. Unless the king
was dependent on the guildmaster's "donations" for income, it will have no
effect on him squeezing (or even just lightly taxing) his country.

Time for a paradigm shift folks. We're talking a long time ago in a place
far, far away.

- -Dustin "opinionated" Evermore

[Andreas Kjeldsen]

> I don't see Birthright kingdoms taxing people based on income. When the tax
> collector comes, they pay. Period. If they don't have it, then they start
> donating chickens. The tax collector does not care in the least if they have
> a job or not. Remember most people DO NOT work for guilds. They are
> farmers. This is not a city-based civilization.

The Castle Guide has a list of various taxes appropriate for a feudal
setting. I don't have it with me right now, but I don't think income
tax is part of it, or it's only 1-2% or something like that. The real
money-maker for the king would be land taxes and the hearth tax, paid
for each dwelling in the realm.

Andreas

Andreas Kjeldsen
morkitar@dadlnet.dk
ICQ# 12703652

-

[Solmyr]

>Life goes on. So the king shuts down the local guildmaster. Unless the
king
>was dependent on the guildmaster's "donations" for income, it will have no
>effect on him squeezing (or even just lightly taxing) his country.
>
This basically goes back to the question of the guilds (or, more
specifically, trade routes) being the overwhelmingly biggest income
generator in the game. I have yet to see a landed ruler who wouldn't try
establishing his own guilds (often to the chagrin of local guilders) or try
to get the guilders under his thumb so he can get unlimited donations. Quite
simply, IMO the income of provinces and guilds/TRs needs to be adjusted to
make them more equal to each other. In medieval times, land, not trade, was
the main source of income.

******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star
aka Azure Star Dragon
solmyr@kolumbus.fi
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html

[Kenneth Gauck]

While Solmyr's comments are true for the medival era, and campaigns with
this inspiration need to address this, its also true that the ancient world
saw a great deal more trade. Phonceia, Athens, Corinth, and Carthage
immediatly come to mind, but many other places were also predominantly trade
based socities. Since it is clear that there is considerable ancient
inspiration in at least some parts, and there is no decline of culture, or
Cerilian Dark Ages, I think its possible to concieve of a high trade
enviroment in BR.

Clearly the game needs tinkering if this is to be the case.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

- -----Original Message-----
From: Solmyr of the Azure Star
Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 4:33 PM
>
> Quite simply, IMO the income of provinces and guilds/TRs needs to be
>adjusted to make them more equal to each other. In medieval times, land,
>not trade, was the main source of income.
>

[the Falcon]

> While Solmyr's comments are true for the medival era, and campaigns with
> this inspiration need to address this, its also true that the ancient world
> saw a great deal more trade. Phonceia, Athens, Corinth, and Carthage
> immediatly come to mind, but many other places were also predominantly trade
> based socities. Since it is clear that there is considerable ancient
> inspiration in at least some parts, and there is no decline of culture, or
> Cerilian Dark Ages, I think its possible to concieve of a high trade
> enviroment in BR.

In the end though, pure guilders (I mean those who whold guild holdings
only, and no provinces and such) don't have much power. Suppose a guild
gets into an argument with a regent whose realm encompasses all the
provinces in which the guilder has guilds. All the regent has to do si
declare war on his own provinces, and just wipe em clean of all the
guilders guilds. After that he can juist put his own guilds and
traderoutes there, since there are absolutely no class requirements or
anything for that. A warrior regent might not get any regency from then,
but they sure as hell provide a healthy source of income. And the worst
thing of all is that the regent doesn't even need a real excuse to do it -
after all, it is his own country and the guilder doesn't have any
provinces or holdings elsewhere. Guilders in general are more vulnerable
to this scheme than most other guilder - big temple can use their powers
as state religions to defend themselves, while wizardly sources can't be
demolished that way - but especially landless guilders are prone to suffer
from this, since they have virtually no defenses against it, and their
chances at giving reprisal are very slim indeed.
I really hope someone has come up with a solution to this...

- the Falcon

[JulesMrshn@aol.co]

In a message dated 4/23/99 3:51:51 AM Central Daylight Time,
m.m.richert@twi.tudelft.nl writes:

>

Note: Wizardry Sources can be reduced 1 level at a time from occupation.

he power of guilders come through money. The regent may occupy and destroy,
but #1 he has to wrry about Espionage actions which can be modified with
money, and #2 loyalty in those provinces #3 Random events in those provinces.
Now, I have rarely seen a guilder with over 6 TRs. Why? #1 You can only
create one a turn, unless within one realm, and really how many players have
big realms with big infrastructures? #2 Most Guilders don'thave boats, the
regents do , so the regents get usually half of the revenue from those routes
and #3 Anuire has few roads. Officaly I have no roads to start in my game,
except in a few NPC realms. The reason for this is that no one wants to give
the enemy army a highway into the heart of your province. Brechtur and
Khinasi states can get away with this because those are realtivly peaceful
and sparse areas, but Anuire is in a state of Civil War. No one wants to
give the enemy the advantage. Sea Routes are also very vulnerable to lost
ships (Although they do make great adventures to go and getthe 3 GB cargo of
the sunken ship), Pirates, and other regents.

[JNeighb934@aol.co]

In a message dated 04/26/99 2:19:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
m.m.richert@twi.tudelft.nl writes:

Note: Wizardry Sources can be reduced 1 level at a time from occupation.

Yeah, I've read that too. Personally, I can't see how an occupying regent
would be able to do that. >>

How about a detachment of troops building a semi-permanent camp smack dab in
the middle of the source, e.g. soldiers hanging their equipment and stuff on
the manifestation itself, if not doing worse to it. That would definitely
erode a source over time. The source just can't be destroyed that way, the
lowest it could degrade is to zero.

[Kenneth Gauck]

- -----Original Message-----
From: the Falcon
Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 3:43 AM
>
>In the end though, pure guilders (I mean those who whold guild holdings
>only, and no provinces and such) don't have much power. Suppose a guild
>gets into an argument with a regent whose realm encompasses all the
>provinces in which the guilder has guilds. All the regent has to do si
>declare war on his own provinces, and just wipe em clean of all the
>guilders guilds.

In the common usage this is called "cutting off your nose to spite your
face." It falls under the heading of stupid things one can do. I don't
understand how declaring war on yourself can ever be attractive. When you
strike at the liberties of a regent, everyone with a grivance is a potential
supporter of that regent, so I rule any war actions against a regent of the
province is a declaratin against the province itself. They Levy comes out
and supports any units opposing the aggressor.

War is a messy business. I make sure its messy IMC.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net