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  1. #11
    Craig Dalrymple
    Guest

    Stat levels - slightly OT (was:

    - ----- Original Message -----
    From: Alaric
    To:
    Sent: Sunday, April 18, 1999 10:37 PM
    Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Stat levels - slightly OT (was: Training and the
    Tyranny of Six-sided Dice)


    Memnoch wrote:

    > > >I've been following this thread for a couple of days now. and I believe
    I
    > > >may have a workable solution:
    > > >
    > > >I may be old, but does anyone remember the Unearthed Arcana Cavalier?
    What
    > > >happened with this character class was that every time he/she advanced
    '
    > >

    Sidhain replied:

    > > ''thankfully 2edition did away with this and that other Munchkin
    Abomination
    > >

    Alaric couldn't help but add:

    > I don't know the class, but a character that had as one of his only
    > advantages, balanced by a healthy disadvantage, could easily have some
    > sort of stat advancement ability, IMO

    Which means I am compulsed to add:

    Actually the advancement of the scores from the Cavalier is something I use
    from time to time. It really depends on the game I am running and the power
    level therein. If the players are starting off with a lackluster rolling
    system such
    as 3d6 take it and stick it; something like this gives them a feeling of
    hope
    that they can someday be a munchkin without really giving it to them.

    The beauty of this is that the player would have to roll 20 every time the
    dice fell
    to raise their stat by one point every five levels, which would therefore
    only be
    four advancements on the way to 20th.

    Assuming they roll the middle and get 10 for an average each roll, they are
    only
    going to do this twice in the life of a normal character. So if Billup
    started with
    a 15 STR and ended with a 17 I would not cry. Nor would I cry if he actually
    popped all four times with rolls of "20" as this would only be the first %
    catergory
    of 18 STR being attained AT 20th level. By then they usually have something
    magical that makes this advancement quite token.

    On a related thread:

    When using this system, I tend to develop some fighter magic items that
    give out points that can be added to this amount and thusly raise the score
    by one measly point. You'd be suprised how excited a person can get
    when they find gauntlets that add 4d6 % points to their strength and
    push them from say 13 to 14.

    These items can work just as well for other classes. A wizards hat that
    gives
    some percentage points for INT, a book that does the same for a priests
    WIZ score.

    They make for some really nice Junior Woodchuck items that really don't
    throw the balance off. This is something that can really help in BR games
    where you really don't want to let it get all high magic.

    A fighter might find Haelyn's Girdle, an item of power crafted by the
    priests
    of the aforementioned god. This might raise the STR (or Con) of a fighter
    by X% points if they are blessed by a priest of Haelyn.

    It makes a nifty belt buckle, might give ONE point of str to a person, and
    even
    has some nice religious tie-ins so you can prevent the party from bundling
    up\
    just one person with all the STR items as you can give them one that person
    can't use (in this case the warrior might follow Belinik, and therefore
    would
    get no benefit from the Girdle); and force them to share the toys with each
    other.

    These are just my thoughts. I make no claim to them!

    Craig

  2. #12
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    Stat levels - slightly OT (was:

    > Here's another possibility for advancement per level. In a friend's
    > campaign (not AD&D), each level he rolls percentile, and if the result
    > is lower than the character's level, one attribute will go up a point
    > (which attribute is decided by the GM based on what attributes were used
    > most in that level). It would probably have to be modified, because
    > levels in that game go up with no ceiling, and veterans of 20th level or
    > so are not all that uncommon.

    How about this? Each time you advance a level, you need to roll equal to
    or below your level with 1d20. If you succeed, pick an ability score to
    improve. Then, roll _over_ the ability with 1d20. If you succeed that as
    well, then you may add a point.
    Just an idea - lemme know what you think of it...

    - the Falcon

  3. #13
    Kenneth Gauck
    Guest

    Stat levels - slightly OT (was:

    Memnoch's solution moves in the right direction, but in general I am opposed
    to advancing ability scores except in the most fantastic cases. Rather I
    prefer to advance individual skills, that is proficencies, by level.

    When we look at the RPG's that have character generation points, and you buy
    your attributes, we also see they are mostly skills based games, not
    attribute based.

    Also, when a character levels, currently the rules advance THAC0, HD, saves,
    and spell powers, which tends to all group nicely as combat skills (though
    spells selected could be non-combat). Rangers are special in that they
    advance in Tracking without having to spend the precious few additional
    non-weapon proficiencies that come with every three or four levels.

    My solution is to basically allow a player to take one proficency per
    level --mostly non-weapon, but it varies by the contents of the adventure,
    and class, as well as how often a player takes the weapon option. My list
    of proficencies is fairly long, and so no player could hope to get an
    exhaustive set of skills. Further I take skill advancement into account
    considering the first point of proficency as equivilent to apprentice in
    terms of skill or Bachelors degree in terms of knowledge. The second level
    of skill I consider to be journeyman in terms of skill, MA in terms of
    knowledge, and so a wider range of actions can be considered routine, and
    few actions out of their experience. The third level is the last that
    assumes expansion of skill area. It is equivilent to Master Craftsman in
    skill, or Ph.D in terms of knowledge.

    So players end up taking greater levels in proficencies as well as taking
    additional ones. To find that the Duke of Osoerde has three proficency
    points in Falconry, and two in dancing should round out the character in an
    interesting way without suggesting he lacks abilities required to rule
    Osoerde.

    Some guildelines I use:
    1) Only allow a proficency to be taken if their is an in-game possibility of
    learning the skill. Players who used the skill unproficently alot during
    the course of play, assisted proficent characters, or found a teacher are
    all good candidates for aquiring the skill.

    2) Never refuse a skill that adds more to role play while having a
    negligable effect on the character's power. Dancing, cooking, indeed any
    art, enhance the character in a way that gives him real life.

    3) Just as the arts are excellent skills to allow players to take, keep an
    eye on skills like blind-fighting, strategy, healing, and whatever else your
    campaign focuses on. If players seem inclined to focus exclusivly on the
    short-term aquisition of certain kinds of skills suggest that character is
    focused in a way that should impact the character. Taking one of these
    kinds of skills now, and one later does not say to much, but a character
    that has taken Weapons Mastery in both Longsword and Crossbow, has
    blind-fighting, two slots of armorer, three slots of weaponsmith, has
    riding, animal husbandry, and two slots of animal training, as well as
    endurance, survival(forest), survival (mountains) and survival (plains), and
    only took hunting and heraldry to round out his charatcer has created a hero
    or champion type of character.

    A character who took four slots of Leadership, three of Military Science,
    one of tactics, one of siegecraft, waterfind, two slots of riding,
    cartography, is merely specialized in his primary weapon, has taken
    politics, etiquette, and persuasion, as well as two slots of administration,
    two slots of military history, a slot of ancient history, a slot of local
    history (Avanil), and enjoys poetry and singing, speaks Anurian, Brecht, and
    Dwarven is a captain, a leader of men, a different charatcer from the
    champion above who may be the same level and posses the same basic
    attributes.

    When both men come before the Prince of Avanil seeking positions, the prince
    will consider them fit for widely different tasks.

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@earthlink.net


    - -----Original Message-----
    From: Memnoch
    Date: Sunday, April 18, 1999 9:51 PM
    >
    >I may be old, but does anyone remember the Unearthed Arcana Cavalier? What
    >happened with this character class was that every time he/she advanced in
    >levels, 2d10 was rolled for strength, dexterity, and constitution. This
    was
    >added to the strength, dexterity, and constitution stats for the character
    >in a percentile.

  4. #14

    Stat levels - slightly OT (was:

    the Falcon wrote:
    >
    > How about this? Each time you advance a level, you need to roll equal to
    > or below your level with 1d20. If you succeed, pick an ability score to
    > improve. Then, roll _over_ the ability with 1d20. If you succeed that as
    > well, then you may add a point.
    > Just an idea - lemme know what you think of it...
    >
    > - the Falcon

    Sounds like a modification on Chaosium's skill system. A good one, I
    might add....Well, that gives a huge likelyhood of improvement. I'd like
    a system that doesn't end up with att's skyrocketing (or at least
    hitting at least 15-18 in most) by the REALLY high levels. Yeah, I know
    that it may not make a difference, but I can just see the 25th level
    fighter with 20/19/19 in the combat att's...then again, he may have him
    anyway...I think it could work, but it'd have to be tried through a few
    levels of play to see...
    Thx,
    Alaric

  5. #15
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    Stat levels - slightly OT (was:

    > > How about this? Each time you advance a level, you need to roll equal to
    > > or below your level with 1d20. If you succeed, pick an ability score to
    > > improve. Then, roll _over_ the ability with 1d20. If you succeed that as
    > > well, then you may add a point.
    >
    > Sounds like a modification on Chaosium's skill system. A good one, I
    > might add....Well, that gives a huge likelyhood of improvement. I'd like
    > a system that doesn't end up with att's skyrocketing (or at least
    > hitting at least 15-18 in most) by the REALLY high levels. Yeah, I know
    > that it may not make a difference, but I can just see the 25th level
    > fighter with 20/19/19 in the combat att's...then again, he may have him
    > anyway...I think it could work, but it'd have to be tried through a few
    > levels of play to see...

    Well, I don't know anything about Chaosium - I just made it up myself.
    Took me about a minute of thinkin, actually...
    Let's make a simple analysis of it. Assume you start out at level 1 and
    play until you reach level 20. Then on average, you'll succeed 11 rolls.
    So on average, you'll be allowed 11 tries from level 1 to 20 to improve a
    stat. The followin table shows (an approximation of) how many tries on
    average are need to improve a particular score:

    SCORE TRIES SCORE TRIES
    1 1.05 11 2.22
    2 1.11 12 2.5
    3 1.18 13 2.86
    4 1.25 14 3.33
    5 1.33 15 4
    6 1.43 16 5
    7 1.54 17 6.67
    8 1.67 18 10
    9 1.82 19 20
    10 2 20+

    As you can clearly see, it takes an average of 9 tries to improve a score
    from 15 to 17, and 10 tries to improve a score from 18 to 19, while it
    takes only 2 tries to improve a score from 10 to 11. So I don't think
    this system will create extreme super characters. It's more suitable for
    takin those bad weaknesses out of your character.
    What is also important to realize, is that a character will on average
    have gotten one try at improvement by level 6, and an additional 1.2 at
    level 9. After that, they get slightly more than one try per two levels,
    slowly improvin to 1 per level, which is achieved at level 20.
    Again, tell me what you think of this...

    - the Falcon

  6. #16

    Stat levels - slightly OT (was:

    the Falcon wrote:
    >
    > Well, I don't know anything about Chaosium - I just made it up myself.
    > Took me about a minute of thinkin, actually...
    > Let's make a simple analysis of it. Assume you start out at level 1 and
    > play until you reach level 20. Then on average, you'll succeed 11 rolls.
    > So on average, you'll be allowed 11 tries from level 1 to 20 to improve a
    > stat. The followin table shows (an approximation of) how many tries on
    > average are need to improve a particular score:
    >
    > SCORE TRIES SCORE TRIES
    > 1 1.05 11 2.22
    > 2 1.11 12 2.5
    > 3 1.18 13 2.86
    > 4 1.25 14 3.33
    > 5 1.33 15 4
    > 6 1.43 16 5
    > 7 1.54 17 6.67
    > 8 1.67 18 10
    > 9 1.82 19 20
    > 10 2 20+
    >
    > As you can clearly see, it takes an average of 9 tries to improve a score
    > from 15 to 17, and 10 tries to improve a score from 18 to 19, while it
    > takes only 2 tries to improve a score from 10 to 11. So I don't think
    > this system will create extreme super characters. It's more suitable for
    > takin those bad weaknesses out of your character.
    > What is also important to realize, is that a character will on average
    > have gotten one try at improvement by level 6, and an additional 1.2 at
    > level 9. After that, they get slightly more than one try per two levels,
    > slowly improvin to 1 per level, which is achieved at level 20.
    > Again, tell me what you think of this...
    >
    > - the Falcon
    >

    Hmm...interesting. I'm someone who relies heavily on averages and stats,
    so that's an impressive array. Actually, now it seems like the method
    you use (and probably the one I suggested too) are really only a balm
    for the players who really want advancement, and enough to make a real
    advancement for some att's. I still think it'd have to be played through
    a few levels to see, but it looks realy good.
    Thx,
    Alaric

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