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  1. #1
    Sidhain
    Guest

    Stat levels - slightly OT (was:

    Because in novels you have a central character and support character, in
    comics you have varying levels of power within the same group...
    I the percentage is at most 20% which is not huge when you consider a
    Birthright character (blooded) would be about 150-200 GURPS points or
    80-90 in Champions.

    Very simply put not everyone in a group of PC's are going to be of
    equivalent power--to say they are is is very poorly crafted plausibility.
    The real world shows that real people often gather in groups called Friends
    that often have varying experiences, lives etc. (especially in gaming)
    The real world doesn't have a mystic draw that makes everyone who meets each
    other of somewhat similar level of ability...

  2. #2
    Mathieu Roy
    Guest

    Stat levels - slightly OT (was:

    Sidhain wrote:

    > Because in novels you have a central character and support character, in
    > comics you have varying levels of power within the same group...
    > I the percentage is at most 20% which is not huge when you consider a
    > Birthright character (blooded) would be about 150-200 GURPS points or
    > 80-90 in Champions.

    Support characters are not all weaker than protagonists. And why would I want to
    play a support character? Why should the dice decide who gets to be the central
    character? Letting dice decide the potential of a character just feels wrong to
    me. Low roll? I'll just kill that one off and roll a new one, thank you very
    much. =)

    Besides, point systems generally lets you customize a character's abilities, so
    that two characters with the same potential need not have the same abilities at
    the same levels. One may be a better warrior, another will be less powerful but
    have a broader range of skills. Or one may even be more able overall than
    another, but be saddled by enemies that his friends are free of. Given that,
    having different point totals for different characters seems a lot less useful.

    > Very simply put not everyone in a group of PC's are going to be of
    > equivalent power--to say they are is is very poorly crafted plausibility.
    > The real world shows that real people often gather in groups called Friends
    > that often have varying experiences, lives etc. (especially in gaming)
    > The real world doesn't have a mystic draw that makes everyone who meets each
    > other of somewhat similar level of ability...

    Certainly, but this is a game, and if the characters aren't balanced with each
    other, not only is it liable to cause bad feelings (no matter how mature the
    players), it may also lead to difficulties in balancing the game. In AD&D,
    threats that can challenge a 3rd-level character will often make minced meat of
    a 1st-level one, and other systems aren't different (though usually less
    extreme).

    Mathieu

  3. #3
    Sidhain
    Guest

    Stat levels - slightly OT (was:

    >Certainly, but this is a game, and if the characters aren't balanced with
    each
    >other, not only is it liable to cause bad feelings (no matter how mature
    the
    >players), it may also lead to difficulties in balancing the game. In AD&D,
    >threats that can challenge a 3rd-level character will often make minced
    meat of
    >a 1st-level one, and other systems aren't different (though usually less
    >extreme).
    >


    II wasn't talking about levels but attributes...and a slight difference in
    level will always come to exist in any game because of varied exp table...as
    to playing a support characters a support character isn't less important
    than a main character as a whole jus tless condicive to moving the plot
    ahead..and a slight variation in ability levels is not going to disrupt the
    game.

  4. #4
    Mathieu Roy
    Guest

    Stat levels - slightly OT (was:

    Sidhain wrote:

    > II wasn't talking about levels but attributes...and a slight difference in
    > level will always come to exist in any game because of varied exp table...as
    > to playing a support characters a support character isn't less important
    > than a main character as a whole jus tless condicive to moving the plot
    > ahead..and a slight variation in ability levels is not going to disrupt the
    > game.

    An AD&D fighter with exceptional attributes can easily be the equal of a warrior
    one level above him, who has average scores. In point-based games, though, the
    difference in starting points is more important since usually character points
    and experience points are the same, so you're litterally starting them with more
    experience.

    And, well, if a support character is as important as a main character, he isn't
    a support character. He is a main character. There can me more than one, and
    most games are built on this premise. Ars Magica is one that isn't, but even
    there everyone has a Magus (main) character and a Companion (support) character.

    But ultimately, to each his own. I'd bet we would never feel at home in each
    other's game.

    Mathieu

  5. #5

    Stat levels - slightly OT (was:

    Mathieu Roy wrote:

    > And, well, if a support character is as important as a main character, he isn't
    > a support character. He is a main character. There can me more than one, and
    > most games are built on this premise. Ars Magica is one that isn't, but even
    > there everyone has a Magus (main) character and a Companion (support) character.
    >
    > But ultimately, to each his own. I'd bet we would never feel at home in each
    > other's game.
    >
    > Mathieu

    Recall, though, that in Ars Magica they suggest that you often play using groups of
    Magi, groups of Companions, or everyone playing a Grog, and that you rotate. Seldom
    is it expected that one player will constantly be playing the Magus and the others
    Companions. However, I once played in an Ars Magica campaign where I was the only
    player with a Magus, and the others had Companions. Oddly enough, it all worked out
    fine in the long run.
    Another example of staggering character levels is Talislanta. Choosing certain races
    can place two equal-leveled characters at completely different points. It was found
    that playing one of the few made-for-combat races could effectively put a character
    3 (or more) levels ahead of anyone else, even if they were both full fighters. The
    same was true with magically-inclined people. Again, it all still works out as long
    as the players are focussed on the roleplaying.
    Now here's where I go a little off topic. It has been my experience that AD&D,
    running like the video game that it is, is probably the only setting out there where
    the skill and experience (or lack thereof) of the DM and Players can not destroy a
    campaign. Even with the most power-grubby players and a DM that does very little to
    encourage roleplaying, a good time can still be had (there are degrees, of course).
    Most other settings require very good interaction and roleplaying skills. This isn't
    either a good or bad thing, I'm just saying....
    Thx,
    Alaric

  6. #6
    Mathieu Roy
    Guest

    Stat levels - slightly OT (was:

    Alaric wrote:
    [Snip]

    > Recall, though, that in Ars Magica they suggest that you often play using groups of
    > Magi, groups of Companions, or everyone playing a Grog, and that you rotate. Seldom
    > is it expected that one player will constantly be playing the Magus and the others
    > Companions.

    That was my point.

    > However, I once played in an Ars Magica campaign where I was the only
    > player with a Magus, and the others had Companions. Oddly enough, it all worked out
    > fine in the long run.

    That's fine, as long as everyone's all right with it... and I bet you didn't roll the
    dice to decide Magus-ness. =)

    > Another example of staggering character levels is Talislanta. Choosing certain races
    > can place two equal-leveled characters at completely different points. It was found
    > that playing one of the few made-for-combat races could effectively put a character
    > 3 (or more) levels ahead of anyone else, even if they were both full fighters. The
    > same was true with magically-inclined people. Again, it all still works out as long
    > as the players are focussed on the roleplaying.

    Again, I would bet that the race/class combo would be picked by the player, and not by
    the dice. IMHO it is more important that every player have equal opportunity to build
    the concept they want to do; if a player ends up with a "less powerful" character due to
    player choice, and not due to rolling the dice, then that is fine by me.

    [Snip]

    Mathieu

  7. #7
    Memnoch
    Guest

    Stat levels - slightly OT (was:

    I've been following this thread for a couple of days now. and I believe I
    may have a workable solution:

    I may be old, but does anyone remember the Unearthed Arcana Cavalier? What
    happened with this character class was that every time he/she advanced in
    levels, 2d10 was rolled for strength, dexterity, and constitution. This was
    added to the strength, dexterity, and constitution stats for the character
    in a percentile. For any stat other than strength, and for strength only
    when it was 18, it was ignored unless the accumulated 2d10 roll reached
    100+. At that point, a full stat point was added.
    For strength, and only if it was already a 18, 2d10 added directly to the
    percentile strength score of the character...

    This could be a way that could be adopted for increasing the ability scores
    for characters, where the 2d10 roll can be used during the Training action,
    and when the character increases in level....


    - -----Original Message-----
    From: Mathieu Roy
    To: birthright@mpgn.com
    Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 8:47 PM
    Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Stat levels - slightly OT (was: Training and the
    Tyranny of Six-sided Dice)


    |
    |
    |Sidhain wrote:
    |
    |> II wasn't talking about levels but attributes...and a slight difference
    in
    |> level will always come to exist in any game because of varied exp
    table...as
    |> to playing a support characters a support character isn't less important
    |> than a main character as a whole jus tless condicive to moving the plot
    |> ahead..and a slight variation in ability levels is not going to disrupt
    the
    |> game.
    |
    |An AD&D fighter with exceptional attributes can easily be the equal of a
    warrior
    |one level above him, who has average scores. In point-based games, though,
    the
    |difference in starting points is more important since usually character
    points
    |and experience points are the same, so you're litterally starting them with
    more
    |experience.
    |
    |And, well, if a support character is as important as a main character, he
    isn't
    |a support character. He is a main character. There can me more than one,
    and
    |most games are built on this premise. Ars Magica is one that isn't, but
    even
    |there everyone has a Magus (main) character and a Companion (support)
    character.
    |
    |But ultimately, to each his own. I'd bet we would never feel at home in
    each
    |other's game.
    |
    |Mathieu
    |
    |************************************************* **************************
    ||'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
    |

  8. #8

    Stat levels - slightly OT (was:

    Memnoch wrote:
    >
    > I've been following this thread for a couple of days now. and I believe I
    > may have a workable solution:
    >
    > I may be old, but does anyone remember the Unearthed Arcana Cavalier? What
    > happened with this character class was that every time he/she advanced in
    > levels, 2d10 was rolled for strength, dexterity, and constitution. This was
    > added to the strength, dexterity, and constitution stats for the character
    > in a percentile. For any stat other than strength, and for strength only
    > when it was 18, it was ignored unless the accumulated 2d10 roll reached
    > 100+. At that point, a full stat point was added.
    > For strength, and only if it was already a 18, 2d10 added directly to the
    > percentile strength score of the character...
    >
    > This could be a way that could be adopted for increasing the ability scores
    > for characters, where the 2d10 roll can be used during the Training action,
    > and when the character increases in level....

    Here's another possibility for advancement per level. In a friend's
    campaign (not AD&D), each level he rolls percentile, and if the result
    is lower than the character's level, one attribute will go up a point
    (which attribute is decided by the GM based on what attributes were used
    most in that level). It would probably have to be modified, because
    levels in that game go up with no ceiling, and veterans of 20th level or
    so are not all that uncommon.
    Thx,
    Alaric

  9. #9
    Sidhain
    Guest

    Stat levels - slightly OT (was:

    >I've been following this thread for a couple of days now. and I believe I
    >may have a workable solution:
    >
    >I may be old, but does anyone remember the Unearthed Arcana Cavalier? What
    >happened with this character class was that every time he/she advanced '

    ''thankfully 2edition did away with this and that other Munchkin Abomination

  10. #10

    Stat levels - slightly OT (was:

    Sidhain wrote:
    >
    > >I've been following this thread for a couple of days now. and I believe I
    > >may have a workable solution:
    > >
    > >I may be old, but does anyone remember the Unearthed Arcana Cavalier? What
    > >happened with this character class was that every time he/she advanced '
    >
    > ''thankfully 2edition did away with this and that other Munchkin Abomination
    >

    I don't know the class, but a character that had as one of his only
    advantages, balanced by a healthy disadvantage, could easily have some
    sort of stat advancement ability, IMO
    Thx,
    Alaric

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