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  1. #1
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    The Old Gods of Aebrynis

    Bob Cauthron wrote:
    > In my view, the elder gods are indeed more primal, as I see them as being more "elemental" in nature, akin to "uncaring" forces rather than reflections of mortals such as humans. The elder gods are truly inscrutable and mysterious because of their nature, and not becauss of anything else. Of course, gods are this way to begin with, but the elder ones are more so. As the younger gods attune themselves to their divine nature, they become more like this, but they will not convert completely. Their outlooks will be molded by their past, which includes their mortal origins.<

    Well, I must say that this view expressed by a couple of people has
    taken me by surprise - I never had considered the Old Gods in this way.
    I always figured that they actually walked among the ancient civilations
    of Aduria, like the Greek gods in a way, and thus were very distinct
    personalities, not omnipresent forces of nature.

    Am I completely out to lunch? Does everyone see the Old Gods the way
    Mr. Cauthron does?

    Interesting ...

    Cheers,
    Me

  2. #2
    Bob Cauthron
    Guest

    The Old Gods of Aebrynis

    >Bob Cauthron wrote:
    >> In my view, the elder gods are indeed more primal, as I see them as
    being more "elemental" in nature, akin to "uncaring" forces rather than
    reflections of mortals such as humans. The elder gods are truly inscrutable
    and mysterious because of their nature, and not becauss of anything else. Of
    course, gods are this way to begin with, but the elder ones are more so. As
    the younger gods attune themselves to their divine nature, they become more
    like this, but they will not convert completely. Their outlooks will be
    molded by their past, which includes their mortal origins. Jim Cooper wrote in response:
    >Well, I must say that this view expressed by a couple of people has
    >taken me by surprise - I never had considered the Old Gods in this way.
    >I always figured that they actually walked among the ancient civilations
    >of Aduria, like the Greek gods in a way, and thus were very distinct
    >personalities, not omnipresent forces of nature.
    >
    >Am I completely out to lunch? Does everyone see the Old Gods the way
    >Mr. Cauthron does?
    >
    >Interesting ...
    >
    >Cheers,
    >Me


    No, you are not out to lunch. Not at all. I just view them differently
    than you. I happen to see your point about the greek gods, and as a matter
    of fact, that was the impression I had when reading your material. I am
    biased against the greek gods, though, and that influences how I see them.
    Your view is probably more accurate, and hence pertinent.

    Just plain Bob

  3. #3
    Mark A Vandermeulen
    Guest

    The Old Gods of Aebrynis

    On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Jim Cooper wrote:

    > Well, I must say that this view expressed by a couple of people has
    > taken me by surprise - I never had considered the Old Gods in this way.
    > I always figured that they actually walked among the ancient civilations
    > of Aduria, like the Greek gods in a way, and thus were very distinct
    > personalities, not omnipresent forces of nature.
    >
    > Am I completely out to lunch? Does everyone see the Old Gods the way
    > Mr. Cauthron does?

    No, no, you're not alone. Bob's views of the Old Gods also struck me as a
    new, but not unpleasing, viewpoint. I kind of like what it says about
    the advance of the civilizations of Cerilia in response to the changing of
    their gods. Perhaps, like the Vorlons and Shadows of Babylon 5, in order
    to progress, society does have to go through stages of destruction and
    regrowth. Thus, the reason that Azrai COULD gain in power in the first
    place was that the human cultures had grown stagnant. So in that sense, it
    is possible that Azrai was the only real "successful" god because he COULD
    change, perhaps partly because he was the god of knowledge, and knowledge
    is always changing. The other gods were much more representative of
    universal norms, which (being supposedly universal) are immune to change.
    As a result, the cultures whose fundmental priorities they embodied were
    likely to be concervative and immune to changes, while Azrai's was much
    more fluid and open to change. No wonder the Adurians developed a powerful
    empire first. It is only when the gods were killed that their cultures
    could develop some sense of relativism and change based on a more fully
    "personalized" godhead.

    Random thoughts.

    Mark VanderMeulen
    vander+@pitt.edu

  4. #4
    JNeighb934@aol.co
    Guest

    The Old Gods of Aebrynis

    In a message dated 03/24/99 14:57:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
    vander+@pitt.edu writes:

    >

    Where is the source regarding Azrai once being the god of knowledge? I
    remember reading that somewhere, I think, but just can't remember where. Can
    you help me out?

  5. #5
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    The Old Gods of Aebrynis

    Jim Cooper wrote:
    >
    > Bob Cauthron wrote:
    > > In my view, the elder gods are indeed more primal, as I see them as being more "elemental" in nature, akin to "uncaring" forces rather than reflections of mortals such as humans. The elder gods are truly inscrutable and mysterious because of their nature, and not becauss of anything else. Of course, gods are this way to begin with, but the elder ones are more so. As the younger gods attune themselves to their divine nature, they become more like this, but they will not convert completely. Their outlooks will be molded by their past, which includes their mortal origins.<
    >
    > Well, I must say that this view expressed by a couple of people has
    > taken me by surprise - I never had considered the Old Gods in this way.
    > I always figured that they actually walked among the ancient civilations
    > of Aduria, like the Greek gods in a way, and thus were very distinct
    > personalities, not omnipresent forces of nature.
    >
    > Am I completely out to lunch? Does everyone see the Old Gods the way
    > Mr. Cauthron does?
    >
    No, I see the elder gods being very involved in humanity as well,
    championing there own tribe. They served the whole as leaders, heroes,
    proctectors and living examples of how to be Andu/Vos/Rjurik/Etc.
    - --

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

  6. #6
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    The Old Gods of Aebrynis

    Pieter A de Jong wrote:
    > No, I see the elder gods being very involved in humanity as well,
    > championing there own tribe. They served the whole as leaders, heroes, proctectors and living examples of how to be Andu/Vos/Rjurik/Etc.<

    Exactly IMO - in fact, that's how I explain regents pre-Deismaar: The
    Old Gods WERE the regents of these tribes! Their ultra-powerful avatars
    ruled various parts of Aduria like mortal scions do now (very much like
    the later Empire of Anuire).

    I visualized the Old Gods as being these huge titan like beings, 25 feet
    tall, the perfect examples of their respective 'children' (ie Anduiras a
    big, golden-haired buffed stud; Brenna a raven-haired seductress;
    Masela, an cinnamon haired vixen; Vorynn = Arnold as Conan (but a very
    *intelligent-looking* Arnold! :)~); Reynir a big, *fair-haired* buffed
    stud; Azrai = James Earl Jones in Conan movie; and Basaia as (Holy
    Amazon Queens, Batlisters!) Grace Jones. :D ~).

    For mythological references & inspirations, I use the following
    archetypes:

    Anduiras = Zeus (mostly) but also Odin/Ares mix (like, duh!)
    Masela = Frigga (mostly), but also Athena/Hera/Nike/ mix
    Brenna = Hel (mostly for looks) and Aphrodite/Circe/Freya mix
    Reynir = Ahto (mostly), but also Dionysus/Demeter/Poseidon mix
    Azrai = Ra & Quetzalcoatl (mostly) but also Hades/Hecate mix
    Vorynn = Math & Oghma (mostly), but also Apollo/Kronos/Artemis mix
    Basaia = Ishtar/My vision of the mythical Amazon Queen mix

    Thus, while the old gods in my campaign were composed a lot on
    Norse/Finnish temperament, they were also very much based on Greek
    mythology as well. I tended to include both sexual identities into
    their personalities as well, which made their personality seem to me
    more 'humanish' on the whole (note that Basaia didn't, for a special
    reason: I feel that she would be the ultimate feminist, and oppossed
    Anduiras for the most part precisely because of his testosterone high
    personalities ... this has carried over into the long standing
    Haelyn/Avani rivalry!) :D

    Cheers,
    Me

  7. #7
    Olesens
    Guest

    The Old Gods of Aebrynis

    > Thus, while the old gods in my campaign were composed a lot on
    > Norse/Finnish temperament, they were also very much based on Greek
    > mythology as well.

    What fantasy gods aren't? At least in part. Well I just wanted to give my view on the old gods. I did think of them as more elemental
    (traveling in clouds like in Greatheart). I think when they did peronally interact it was through a not-always-noticible avatar. I just can't
    see them running around in a form that eveyone recognizes and doing stuff. I think they were about as active then as in 551 MR. My bet is that
    the greatest activity period was shortly after Diesmaar (about the original Roele's reign).

  8. #8
    darkstar
    Guest

    The Old Gods of Aebrynis

    JNeighb934@aol.com wrote:

    > Where is the source regarding Azrai once being the god of knowledge? I
    > remember reading that somewhere, I think, but just can't remember where. Can
    > you help me out?
    >
    It was in the book of priestcraft, pg 121

    - --
    Ian Hoskins

    e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
    Homepage: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss

    ICQ: 2938300 AIM: IHoskins

  9. #9
    Bob Cauthron
    Guest

    The Old Gods of Aebrynis

    >> Thus, while the old gods in my campaign were composed a lot on
    >> Norse/Finnish temperament, they were also very much based on Greek
    >> mythology as well.
    >
    >What fantasy gods aren't? At least in part. Well I just wanted to give my
    view on the old gods. I did think of them as more elemental
    >(traveling in clouds like in Greatheart). I think when they did peronally
    interact it was through a not-always-noticible avatar. I just can't
    >see them running around in a form that eveyone recognizes and doing stuff.
    I think they were about as active then as in 551 MR. My bet is that
    >the greatest activity period was shortly after Diesmaar (about the
    >original Roele's reign).


    See, Mr. Cooper? I was right. Your view is much more pertinent than
    mine. Just so that I may clarify, my view on the so-called original BR
    deities is obviously different than most everyone's. This is for several
    reasons, and all of them are a matter of preference, not the view that I am
    correct.
    IMC, the elder gods are not the gods that predate the current ones.
    They are the primordial, incomprehensible beings who existed for who knows
    how long. They are beyond gods, and worshippers are not necessary for them
    to maintain power in any way. After eons passed, then came the "first" set
    of BR deities. By this time the true elder gods had more or less moved on,
    for whatever reasons. So there was no conflict there.
    These gods were originally remote, and then became more akin to mortals
    as they developed a relationship of sorts with the various types of mortals
    (many races, not just humans - although IMC, the humans are the most
    successful race in terms of survival and power currently in history). When
    this happened, some of the gods changed more than others, and some of these
    became VERY self-interested. And so on. I see the relationship between the
    younger gods and "their" mortals as an interactive one, with both sides
    being affected, in varying degrees.
    Hopefully this makes some sort of sense, and is somewhat viable.

  10. #10
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    The Old Gods of Aebrynis

    Bob Cauthron wrote:

    > IMC, the elder gods are not the gods that predate the current ones.
    > They are the primordial, incomprehensible beings who existed for who knows
    > how long. They are beyond gods, and worshippers are not necessary for them
    > to maintain power in any way. After eons passed, then came the "first" set
    > of BR deities. By this time the true elder gods had more or less moved on,
    > for whatever reasons. So there was no conflict there.

    I did something very similar to that in my non-BR, FRish campaign. The Elder
    gods (called the Elderon) were beings that embodied concepts like matter,
    energy, good, evil, entropy, chaos and law. It was their interaction that
    created the universe in the mythology of that world, and led to the creation of
    beings like greater gods, titans, etc. not to mention the worlds, planes and
    such.

    My question, however, is how does your view of these elder gods interact in a BR
    campaign? In BR, the gods are much more proximate than in another campaign
    world, but even in the "high magic" setting of the campaign for which I used the
    Elderon, they remained remote, conceptual beings who never interacted at all
    with the PCs. Does these beings have any influence at all in your BR campaign?

    Gary

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