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  1. #1
    Craig Dalrymple
    Guest

    Nature of Magic: Is this logica

    - -----Original Message-----
    From: Olesens
    To: BR List
    Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 4:38 PM
    Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Nature of Magic: Is this logical?


    >My question: Would it be logical to allow a mage from another plane to
    >cast only lesser magic? Note that my reason/explanation for not
    >allowing all spells is that Cerilian wizards "mine the mebhaighl" while
    >other wizards get it from the land (DS) or the god of magic (FR). Would
    >it make sense if I said that the Shadow World screens off True Magic
    >from the "conduit" of magical power the off-world mage draws from his
    >homeworld?
    >


    I would say that mages from other planes should have full access to
    the magics they already had. Here are my reasons:

    1. Their magics are different, as you said. Their source is different,
    everything about it is different save for the result. I would even say
    that their VSM components are all different mostly. This would
    therefore
    limit any such planehopping wizard to casting only the spells in
    his travelling book. Any future spells would either have to come
    through
    research, or converting to "Cerilian" spells. The process of doing
    this might cause him to "forget" the old style and become normal
    lesser magic casting wizard, which begs the question "why do this?"

    2. The Lost, or the 13 servants of Azrai, or whomever they are all learned
    magic stright from the deity himself. They existed BEFORE bloodlines.
    So did non blooded elven wizards. Obviously there is a way for any
    common man to mine the magics of this world; the resident humans of
    Cerilia have not discovered this breakthrough though. (now wouldn't
    that make for a campaign side story??). As such, any wizard who
    already knows how to mine the mebhaighl of his own world would
    do so out of instinct even on Cerilia. This assumes that all worlds
    have their own version of mebhaighl, but that's not too much of a
    stretch, especially in Dark Sun.

  2. #2
    darkstar
    Guest

    Nature of Magic: Is this logica

    Craig Dalrymple wrote:

    >
    > 2. The Lost, or the 13 servants of Azrai, or whomever they are all learned
    > magic stright from the deity himself. They existed BEFORE bloodlines.
    > So did non blooded elven wizards. Obviously there is a way for any
    > common man to mine the magics of this world; the resident humans of
    > Cerilia have not discovered this breakthrough though. (now wouldn't
    > that make for a campaign side story??). As such, any wizard who
    > already knows how to mine the mebhaighl of his own world would
    > do so out of instinct even on Cerilia. This assumes that all worlds
    > have their own version of mebhaighl, but that's not too much of a
    > stretch, especially in Dark Sun.

    I have always thought that the Lost were able to cast magic because
    Azrai gave them part of his power (ie gave them a bloodline). This
    enabled them to access the power of true magic. If there had been a way
    to cast true magic without bloodlines then it would have been discovered
    by now. After all, there were a lot of lesser mages around experimenting
    with new ways of casting magic. If it had been possibly for a commoner
    to cast true magic then it would have already been found. This means
    that it isn't possible and any none Cerillian wizard who shows up, can't
    cast any spells not normally allowed to magicians.
    Actually I personally wouldn't allow a foriegn wizard to cast any spells
    at all, at least not until he had spent some time on Aebrynis and
    learned how magicians cast their spells.

    - --
    Ian Hoskins

    e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
    Homepage: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss

    ICQ: 2938300 AIM: IHoskins

  3. #3
    Daniel McSorley
    Guest

    Nature of Magic: Is this logica

    From: Craig Dalrymple
    >I would say that mages from other planes should have full access to
    >the magics they already had. Here are my reasons:
    >
    >1. Their magics are different, as you said. Their source is different,
    > everything about it is different save for the result. I would even say
    > that their VSM components are all different mostly. This would
    >therefore
    > limit any such planehopping wizard to casting only the spells in
    > his travelling book. Any future spells would either have to come
    >through
    > research, or converting to "Cerilian" spells. The process of doing
    > this might cause him to "forget" the old style and become normal
    > lesser magic casting wizard, which begs the question "why do this?"
    >
    If the source of his magic is extraplanar, I would rule it cut off by the
    Shadow World while he was on Cerilia.

    >2. The Lost, or the 13 servants of Azrai, or whomever they are all learned
    > magic stright from the deity himself. They existed BEFORE bloodlines.
    > So did non blooded elven wizards. Obviously there is a way for any
    > common man to mine the magics of this world; the resident humans of
    > Cerilia have not discovered this breakthrough though. (now wouldn't
    > that make for a campaign side story??). As such, any wizard who
    > already knows how to mine the mebhaighl of his own world would
    > do so out of instinct even on Cerilia. This assumes that all worlds
    > have their own version of mebhaighl, but that's not too much of a
    > stretch, especially in Dark Sun.
    >
    The Lost received some of Azrai's power into themselves, they were the
    first blooded people, if you ask me.
    The elves have a link to the land already, the same as the dragons,
    giants (IMC), and gods. The blooded get this connection from their godly
    heritage. The elves didn't need to get it, they _had_ it.

    I would say any non-Cerilian wizard could be a magician at best.

    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu
    http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~mcsorley/

  4. #4
    Craig Dalrymple
    Guest

    Nature of Magic: Is this logica

    - -----Original Message-----
    From: darkstar
    >I have always thought that the Lost were able to cast magic because
    >Azrai gave them part of his power (ie gave them a bloodline). This
    >enabled them to access the power of true magic

    Everyone seems to assume that the Lost were given a bloodline by
    Azrai. Though this is a popular notion, it is not necessarily the truth,
    though it can be for your worlds. This leaves open the door that they
    were NOT blooded. Heck if you look in the Magian's description, he
    was already a lich before coming to the continent of Cerilia and
    stealing a bloodline. If necessary I will quote this after work today ;)

    Thus via the Magian, we know that the lost were NOT blooded.
    This implies that he just knew how to cast the true magic, and that Azrai
    (remember he's the god of Pride, in himself) would never be highly likely to
    just give somebody a shot of deific energy IMHO.

    >If there had been a way
    >to cast true magic without bloodlines then it would have been discovered
    >by now.

    The Elves found a way. To the eyes of man the elves and their magics are
    mysterious, so they must come from some greater link to the land that the
    elves have and man does not. I treat this as the humans superstitions. Magic
    has replaced science IMC. Someday a human wizard without a bloodline will
    discover how to cast true magic. He will overcome the mental block that all
    non-blooded wizards have. This will essentially cause a Renisance in the
    world for magic. I never inted to let this happen as I like the rugged magic
    system in use, but it seems a natural path to me.


    Craig

  5. #5
    Mark A Vandermeulen
    Guest

    Nature of Magic: Is this logica

    On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Olesens wrote:

    > My question: Would it be logical to allow a mage from another plane to
    > cast only lesser magic? Note that my reason/explanation for not
    > allowing all spells is that Cerilian wizards "mine the mebhaighl" while
    > other wizards get it from the land (DS) or the god of magic (FR). Would
    > it make sense if I said that the Shadow World screens off True Magic
    > from the "conduit" of magical power the off-world mage draws from his
    > homeworld?

    That is exactly what I would do. Lesser magic is the magic that can be
    cast without the godly connection to the mebheighl. Actually, I would
    probably give Elminster a roll for a "wild effect" of some kind each time
    he tried to cast one of his "lesser magic" spells he has memorized until
    he gets the hang of handling mebheighl-driven spells, which probably
    function in subtly different ways than the well-behaved Weave. Over time
    he would get over this (perhaps an INT-4 check each time he casts the
    spell; if successful, he can cast that spell w/o problem next time). But
    he would NEVER be able to cast greater magic unless he somehow aquired a
    bloodline. And even then I would probably make him reroll for
    chance-to-learn his spells, because greater magic is even more different
    from Faerun-style magic than lesser magic is.

    That said, I DON'T know if your "Shadow World-screening" idea is really
    necessary. If that is how inter-planar magic casting occurs in your
    conception of the multiverse, that's fine, and sound like it's probably
    logically consistent to me. However, I would simply say that the Weave on
    Faerun is a greatly "tamed-down" version of mebheighl that exists on that
    sphere, that Mystara (or whoever) tamed it so that mere mortals could use
    it automatically (or nearly automatically). In Cerilia, the mebheighl is
    much less well-behaved, much harder to handle. After all, Aebrynnis has
    had at least two earth-shattering events happen in its past. Not only
    Deismaar, when the gods died and the earth may have absorbed at least some
    of their "godstuff", but there's also that ancient cataclism that
    supposedly sundered the Shadow World off from the prime material.

    Hope it helps.

    Mark VanderMeulen
    vander+@pitt.edu

  6. #6
    Mark A Vandermeulen
    Guest

    Nature of Magic: Is this logica

    On Wed, 24 Feb 1999, Craig Dalrymple wrote:

    > Thus via the Magian, we know that the lost were NOT blooded.
    > This implies that he just knew how to cast the true magic, and that Azrai
    > (remember he's the god of Pride, in himself) would never be highly likely to
    > just give somebody a shot of deific energy IMHO.

    Well, the obvious counter to this is that Azrai granted some of his
    followers bloodlines for "bragging rights." Sort of "my followers are more
    powerful than your followers" kind of thing. Or perhaps Vorynn, who was
    also a god of magic, afterall, had already done something like this for
    his followers, and Azrai was just not willing to be outdone.

    (Still, your arguments are sound, and if that's the way you wish to play
    it, I have no problems. I'd be perfectly willing to play in such a game,
    but if I'm DM, I'll play it the way I like.)

    Mark VanderMeulen
    vander+@pitt.edu

  7. #7
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    Nature of Magic: Is this logica

    > If the source of his magic is extraplanar, I would rule it cut off by the
    > Shadow World while he was on Cerilia.

    A question related to that topic:

    How "easy" is access to the Ephereal Plane and the Astral Plane from
    Cerilia?

  8. #8
    darkstar
    Guest

    Nature of Magic: Is this logica

    the Falcon wrote:
    >
    > > If the source of his magic is extraplanar, I would rule it cut off by the
    > > Shadow World while he was on Cerilia.
    >
    > A question related to that topic:
    >
    > How "easy" is access to the Ephereal Plane and the Astral Plane from
    > Cerilia?
    >
    Well in the Outer Plane accessory I am working on for Birthright
    (http://members.xoom.com/ihoskins/book/) access to the Etheral plane is
    almost impossible, while access to the Astral Plane is normal. That is
    only one person view though.

    - --
    Ian Hoskins

    e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
    Homepage: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss

    ICQ: 2938300 AIM: IHoskins

  9. #9
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    Nature of Magic: Is this logica

    > Well in the Outer Plane accessory I am working on for Birthright
    > (http://members.xoom.com/ihoskins/book/) access to the Etheral plane is
    > almost impossible, while access to the Astral Plane is normal. That is
    > only one person view though.

    So then what would an _oil_of_etherealness_ do in Cerilia? What about
    _armor_of_etherealness_?

  10. #10
    darkstar
    Guest

    Nature of Magic: Is this logica

    the Falcon wrote:

    >
    > So then what would an _oil_of_etherealness_ do in Cerilia? What about
    > _armor_of_etherealness_?
    >
    Either they don't work, or they give you access to the shadow world so
    all those nice monsters there can have a bite at you...

    Actually what I meant by impossible to access was that there were no
    portals to the Etheral Plane from Aebrynis or anything like that. I am
    going to make it a sort of dream-like world of ghosts that exists part
    way between Aebrynis and the Shadow world. It will also act as a barrier
    between the two planes, to prevent all the undead wandering across. Of
    course in some places the Etheral plane is especially thin or weak and
    the distance between the real world and the shadow world become a lot
    closer allowing undead to wander across at will.

    I am still working on the details though....
    - --
    Ian Hoskins

    e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
    Homepage: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss

    ICQ: 2938300 AIM: IHoskins

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