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Thread: Merc Capt CG?
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02-23-1999, 05:25 PM #1Kenneth GauckGuest
Merc Capt CG?
- -----Original Message-----
From: the Falcon
Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Alignment falwed?
>
>If you want some examples of CN characters in the AD&D game,
>check out any mercenary captain. 9 of 10 times it'll be a CN.
>Some merchants and wizards are CN as well. Take Orthien Tane
>for example. Is he insane? I reckon not. What about that
>renegade Khinasi necromancer? All different approaches to CN.
>
Machiavelli's warning against mercenaries must never have been so true as in
your campaign. Rather than repeat my own descriptions of lawfulness once
more, I shall quote the PHB, "Chaotic Neutral characters believe there is no
order to anything ... they tend to follow whatever whim strikes them at the
moment. Such characters have been known to cheerfully, and for no apparent
reason, gamble away everything they have on the roll of a single dice."
What uniformly bad behavior for an officer! Where is the troop discipline?
Does he cheerfully throw away men's lives in battle? Does he lead his
company of men away from the army over a petty slight, or on a whim?
Many guidebooks were written in the age when mercenary captains were common,
and they advocate quite lawful behavior, considering risk-taking and
ill-discipline to be great vices.
I will post a second note to deal with the illusion of a contradiction for
those who think of Cuiraécen and would argue on this point.
Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net
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02-25-1999, 01:32 PM #2
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Merc Capt CG?
> Machiavelli's warning against mercenaries must never have been so true as in
> your campaign. Rather than repeat my own descriptions of lawfulness once
> more, I shall quote the PHB, "Chaotic Neutral characters believe there is no
> order to anything ... they tend to follow whatever whim strikes them at the
> moment. Such characters have been known to cheerfully, and for no apparent
> reason, gamble away everything they have on the roll of a single dice."
> What uniformly bad behavior for an officer! Where is the troop discipline?
> Does he cheerfully throw away men's lives in battle? Does he lead his
> company of men away from the army over a petty slight, or on a whim?
You can quote all you want, but that's just not what Chaotic Neutral
entails to me. Hell, the above sounds just as stupid as saying the use of
poison is inherently Evil. Clearly, the AD&D alignment system was written
from a conservative, American point of view in the 70s.
> Many guidebooks were written in the age when mercenary captains were common,
> and they advocate quite lawful behavior, considering risk-taking and
> ill-discipline to be great vices.
Let me give you a short explaination as to how I see the mercenary captain
in terms of alignment...
The mercenary captain is Chaotic Neutral. Why?
First of all, he owes no allegiance to any party; his only interests lie
with himself and with his men. Thus, the neutral part.
Second, they will fight for anyone, provided they will pay him and his
man. He does not fight because of someone else's interests; he only
fights to support himself and his men. Thus the chaotic part.
Finally, I would like to emphasize that Chaotic characters can just as
well be disciplined as Lawful or Neutral ones. They just have a different
understanding between them and their leaders.
> I will post a second note to deal with the illusion of a contradiction for
> those who think of Cuiraécen and would argue on this point.
I can't wait to read it.
- the Falcon
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02-25-1999, 02:04 PM #3BinagranGuest
Merc Capt CG?
the Falcon wrote:
> The mercenary captain is Chaotic Neutral. Why?
> First of all, he owes no allegiance to any party; his only interests lie
> with himself and with his men. Thus, the neutral part.
I would have thought that the fact that his interests lie with himself AND his men
puts him on the Good part of the scale. (He may fight for anyone, but he WILL
protect his men. I don't know about you but that sounds pretty good to me.)
> Second, they will fight for anyone, provided they will pay him and his
> man. He does not fight because of someone else's interests; he only
> fights to support himself and his men. Thus the chaotic part.
Chaotic means they will fight for anyone???? I would've thought that neutralness
meant they would fight for anyone. Does this mean that (for the sake of argument)
a Neutral Evil mercenary leader will not fight for anyone because his evilness
means he will only fight for evil causes?
> Finally, I would like to emphasize that Chaotic characters can just as
> well be disciplined as Lawful or Neutral ones. They just have a different
> understanding between them and their leaders.
How can a Chaotic character have any discipline when Chaos means disorder, and
discipline seeks to bring order to chaos. The whole idea just doesn't make any
sense, it seems to me that you're trying to say that CHAOS can equal ORDER when
the two are at extremes from each other.Admittedly, you might have very different
ideas as to what the term Chaos means to you, but I can only think that it means
(at the very least) randomness. And randomness in a mercenary captain cannot but
make him unpopular with his troops.
Binagran
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02-25-1999, 02:54 PM #4Christopher BeattieGuest
Merc Capt CG?
At 10:04 PM 2/25/99 +0800, Binagran wrote:
>the Falcon wrote:
>> The mercenary captain is Chaotic Neutral. Why?
>> First of all, he owes no allegiance to any party; his only interests lie
>> with himself and with his men. Thus, the neutral part.
>I would have thought that the fact that his interests lie with himself AND
his men
>puts him on the Good part of the scale. (He may fight for anyone, but he
WILL
>protect his men. I don't know about you but that sounds pretty good to me.)
It all depends on the reasons why he will fight for his men. He will fight
for his men because they need each other. That was why they banded together
in the first place. He probably wouldn't risk his life to save another crew
member unless that crew member was important. He sees the group as important,
as opposed to the self, but doesn't yet quite grasp the more bigger picture
of the poor the opressed. He is willing to extend his loyalty to a small
clan but no further, thus he does not cross into the boundary of "good."
>> Second, they will fight for anyone, provided they will pay him and his
>> man. He does not fight because of someone else's interests; he only
>> fights to support himself and his men. Thus the chaotic part.
>Chaotic means they will fight for anyone???? I would've thought that
neutralness
>meant they would fight for anyone. Does this mean that (for the sake of
argument)
>a Neutral Evil mercenary leader will not fight for anyone because his
evilness
>means he will only fight for evil causes?
No because "Evil" doesn't not always mean "works for the 'cause' of evil."
Evil, first and foremost means the First person is first, at the expense
of the second and thrid person. The Evil character looks out for Himself
first and foremost. Since he is "Neutural" he is not bound by the "cause"
of Evil, (as would be a Lawful Neutural character) and can choose between
the cause and his primary objective, Himself, as necessary.
So if a Paladin is in need of a mercenary group taking out a group of
pirates, and is willing to pay enough money, the Neutural Evil might
enlist himself and his men to the cause, but since the ends for him
are first and foremost himself, he will use any means at his disposal
(within reason) to accopmplish this task. Lie, poison, torture, etc.
His thoughts for his "crew" are based simply on the basis of economy,
he supports them because they in effect support him. But if push came
to shove, if the only way to get ahead would be to throw his crew into
the maw of the dragon, he would do that in a heartbeat, and he knows
his crew would do the same thing to if they had the chance, so he makes
sure that they never have the chance. Some trust, but a lot of verify.
>> Finally, I would like to emphasize that Chaotic characters can just as
>> well be disciplined as Lawful or Neutral ones. They just have a different
>> understanding between them and their leaders.
>How can a Chaotic character have any discipline when Chaos means disorder,
and
>discipline seeks to bring order to chaos. The whole idea just doesn't
make any
>sense, it seems to me that you're trying to say that CHAOS can equal ORDER
when
>the two are at extremes from each other.Admittedly, you might have very
different
>ideas as to what the term Chaos means to you, but I can only think that it
means
>(at the very least) randomness. And randomness in a mercenary captain
cannot but
>make him unpopular with his troops.
I might argue with the Falcon here myself, but then again, "discipline"
can be a vaguely defined term. Used in the manner of military discipline,
the chaotic character has no discipline at all. Chaotic as in the alignment
does not by any means mean random. It does mean that when the person wakes
up every morning, if he doesn't feel there is a need to do the Lawful person's
500 daily pushup routine, then he won't do it, and won't feel guilty about
not doing it. Of course, if he knew that he was going to have to pass a
physical exam that afternoon,or the next day, he would probably do it, but
because of necessity, not because of daily required routines of order.
If a lawful person comes across a regent who is legally under the law burning
the witch, his hand would be stayed because he is witnessing a perfectly legal
act. He might later work to have the law changed, but he would not "violate"
the law. The chaotic person would (assuming both were good) see the violation
of something preceived as "good" right then and now, placing the law as no
importance, and rescue the lady right there on the spot, resisting all lawful
attempts by the regent to arrest him and burn him as well.
Thus in the same manner the "chaotic" person will use discipline as necessary
in the course of his life. It is not a lifestyle for him, however, as it is
with the lawful person. There are days when the chaotic person just feels
like
doing the dishes, arranging the CD's on his entertainment center, and so
forth.
It's just that he doesn't do it every day like the lawful person, more like
once
every other decade.
| _______ |Christopher Beattie | 801 Eisenhower Dr|
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