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  1. #1
    brandes
    Guest

    I feel it`s my duty (long as he

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    Yep. 100%. FR is fun, and has it's place, but to a mature and more =
    worldly role-player, Cerilia has it all. Playing FR is like reading the =
    Darksword Chronicles, or something. Everybody's got magic, even the =
    farmers...
    =20
    I'm unfamiliar with the "Darksword Chronicles" that you refer to, =
    and I sure don't follow the "more mature or worldly gamer" argument. =
    Regardless of campaign world, the DM determines the maturity level of =
    the campaign by the issues that he chooses to explore in gaming. Your =
    argument seems to claim that players of FR are "immature" in some =
    fashion. Eh? =20
    It's my duty to defend FR, the most popular campaign world, =
    well, ever, against libel.
    Choose "slander" instead. Libel is infringement on creative rights.
    =20
    Actually, no, trust me . . . libel is "a written or oral defamatory =
    statement." Perhaps you mean plagiarism?
    The main complaint: it has too much magic. Gee, let me =
    think, that's the DM's decision completely.
    And kill Elminster while your at it, too. :) In defense, tho, it's =
    not all the DMs fault. Ever try playing with other FR DMs? Want to =
    hear a DM whine? Change the world he DMs when you run it...
    =20
    Say what? I really don't know why a erstwhile DM would complain =
    that the current DM made the world his own . . .
    Such as the FR campaign that I currently play in (yes, I play in one =
    and DM another.). That campaign takes place with the descendants of the =
    PCs of my campaign, 70 years later. I EXPECT that DM to run things =
    differently . . . and he does . . . without complaints from any of the =
    people who play in both campaigns.
    =20
    In Cerilia there are SOME very powerful mages. In Faerun, the are =
    LOTS of VERY POWERFUL mages. No on in BR approaches 30th level... That =
    the magic is concentrated in those who hold power is not outrageous or =
    rediculous, but aren't you the least bit depressed when your players say =
    "oh, another sword +2".
    =20
    That last part (disappointment) is in no real danger of occuring. =
    The PC with the +2 axe knows that it's an heirloom and fully intends to =
    use it for as long as the character survives. The +3 sword that will =
    soon be introduced (moonblade) is similarly the last weapon that the PC =
    will expect to earn. The only magic items that don't generate joy IMC =
    (FR) are one-shot healing potions. Anything with multiple charges or =
    bigger than a dagger +1 still gets the PCs going.
    =20
    To me Baron Gavin Tael's Iron Guard is perhapst he most fearsome =
    group of soldiers in all Anuire. They are tough, militant, aggressive, =
    and brutal, and they get plate & mail for free. They don't hold a =
    candle to a standard Purple Dragons, who average 3rd to 6th level with a =
    7th level captain and a wizard of 4th + traveling along for kicks. =
    Further, each wizard is armed with two wands (don't those cost CON =
    points to make? What's it cost to get folks to voluntarily sacrifice so =
    much life energy?) Compare this to the awsome might of 10 men on of 1st =
    to 2nd level led by a 4th level captain, and their "magic" is a load of =
    crossbows. Yes, I can change FR all I want, but... I don't want to. I =
    take out the Purple Dragons, I have to take out the very infrastructure =
    of Azoun and Cormyr... I don't have time for that.
    If magic gets out of hand in ANY campaign, there's only one =
    person to blame. As a corollary to that statement, I had a worse =
    problem with magic in my Birthright campaign than I do in my current FR =
    campaign.
    "Gee, let me think, that's the DM's decision completely."
    The problem raced from the fact that the major NPC's boast =
    some outrageous magic for a world that pretends to be low-magic. In my =
    FR campaign, there is no real danger of my PC's deciding to go hunt down =
    an NPC, even an evil one, just to take his sword +5 (or whatever). This =
    happened in BR.
    Why? And how does one's foe being Evil excuse a deed? Last I =
    looked LG, CG, and LN did not use the ends to justify the means.
    =20
    Who said anything about those alignments? (LG, CG, LN) This PC was =
    a CN "merchant-prince" (before guilders came out) with an ambitious =
    streak a mile wide. He took control of the more powerful characters in =
    the party through his wit and charm . . . and NEARLY became the High =
    King of all lands south of Ghoere.
    =20
    (Sidebar comment: LN often DOES use "ends justify the means." =
    That's why you can have LN Bounty Hunters, LN Assassins, and LN =
    politicians. (sorry))
    Aramis, a 5th level thief, made quick work of Guilder Kalien =
    because he wanted the sword +1. He broke into Kal-Saitharak=20
    and, at 7th level, took Bloodsilver and Prince Fhilaraene (sp?) =
    from the Gorgon's throne room, despite massive security.
    Your idea of "massive security" and mine must differ. I guess your =
    7th level thief could walk into Elminster's study unscathed too, right?
    =20
    Um, no . . . Elminster's study is known to be littered with =
    defensive magic. Of course, he knocks on the door first. Friendly and =
    charming guy that Aramis was, Lhaeo would have screened him thoroughly =
    before allowing him to disturb the Old Mage.
    =20
    My idea of massive security: Aramis is en route to Kal-Saitharak. =
    Waylaid by a battle-host of orog cavalry. Captured. Locked in a chest =
    for 30 days without food (he did get rainwater, however.). In a moment =
    of lax security, the box fell off of the donkey carrying it. Through =
    stealth, he escapes and goes limping home. Returns. Reaches said =
    catacombs. Gets a serious butt-whuppin' from the local orogs. =
    Unconscious. Nursed to a semblance of health by a low-level mage hiding =
    out in the catacombs. Uses an entire bag of Beads of Force to =
    immobilize the throne room and make good his escape. The real adventure =
    relied on the player's massive cleverness to AVOID the myriad of guards =
    and traps.
    =20
    IMC, you don't get into Battlewaite without invitaion. If you do, =
    it's through the catacombs, and they make Undermountain look like =
    Disneyland. I outright murdered my last party of foolish 12th level+ =
    who tried to find Halastar's Hoard. If you don't want them to have it, =
    kill them.
    =20
    DM fairness alert . . . outright party murder is what I distill from =
    your argument above. Yeah, sure, if the party goes after something =
    bigger than they could possibly handle, let them die. But my Basic =
    Campaign Lore, the knowledge given to all characters upon entry into the =
    game, serves as a voice of wisdom. When they go too deep in the dungeon =
    or go to a dungeon that is out of their league, I often give them a =
    "warning encounter" to show them that they are grossly outclassed.
    What I'm saying is that the BR designers just sort of threw =
    everything out there.
    I take serious issue with that kind of slander. A practiced =
    political eye shows that to be entirely untrue. Every realm has an =
    interaction with every other realm. If I may ask, just how does the =
    Moonsea relate to Shadowdale, except via the Zhentarim?
    =20
    They don't relate much at all. Why should they? Real world =
    example: How much did, say, the people of France or Germany (most =
    Dales-like) communicate with the people of Denmark or Belgium (most =
    Moonsea-like)?
    Most NPC's of ANY note have serious magic.
    =20
    As it should be. Power attracts power. And yet by the time a party =
    reached 9th level under my FR game (using standard goodies and =
    adventures) I had characters with more magic than any regent of Cerilia.
    =20
    I think we've already been through the "DM controls magic" argument. =
    I don't use modules. Never have. Yeah, they hand out too much magic. =
    I fully agree. BTW, see Sindre Berg's post which explores the faults of =
    certain recent BR modules. Pay close attention to the magic items ripe =
    for the plucking if the PCs survive the adventure at all (unlikely, =
    since the villains must originate in a more high-powered world entirely, =
    and the PCs should not have enough magic between them to defeat the =
    creature-demon-thing.)
    The other aspect of any arguments claiming BR to be low-magic is =
    that wizards can't do much as regents (true) and aren't as dominant as =
    FR wizards. As to the second part, bullfeathers. Take a peek at =
    sources like the Blood Enemies sourcebook. Now tell me that wizards =
    aren't as dominant. Hmmm . . . Magian? Gorgon? White Witch? =
    Banshegh? Rhoube? Chimera? Shall I continue?
    =20
    Halastair, Khelban, Elminster, Red Wizards, Simbul, Tessaril, =
    Vangerdahast... . Okay... Tael, Swordwraith, Raenech, Diem, =
    Avan, Tuornen, Boeruine, the Mhor, Dhoesone, Roesone, Aglondier (only =
    3rd level!). Balance it out my friend. Compare the number of realms =
    ruled by warriors and "action" types to the wizards. There is not a =
    single nation where the ruling class is all wizards (ala Thay).
    =20
    The Realms are more fully explored by far. Thayan culture, focused =
    so greatly around wizardly might, does not fit with Anuire/Cormyr, =
    Rjurik/Rashemen-Dales-Savage North, Vos/Great Grey Land of Thar, =
    Khinasi/Calimshan, or Brechtur/Sembia-Waterdeep-Amn. Perhaps if the BR =
    designers had received their justly-deserved funding, Djapar or Aduria =
    might have included such a land.
    =20
    In Eveningstar (Cormyr) Lord Tessaril Neverwinter helps her 7th =
    level guardsmen keep the peace by using ESP and insuch and invading the =
    minds of newcomers to discover their intentions.... That waste of a =
    mage would never happen in cerilia, there's too few of them as it is, =
    and they can't figure out why magic dwindles (cut out the heart - i.e. =
    the elvish lands), and the body (magic) dies"
    Lastly, BE is a sourcebook about immortal creatures touched by the =
    magic of a dying god. In a realm that boasts something of about 50 less =
    gods, this is really an event.
    =20
    I really don't understand what you are saying in the above =
    paragraph. Asuuming that I'm focusing on the right complaint here: =
    Anyone with arguments concerning the FR pantheon need only look to the =
    average polytheistic pantheon. Yes, most lists for the Romans, Greeks, =
    Celts, and others include fewer gods than FR. All of those included a =
    mighty host of lesser gods who are seldom mentioned. How often do you =
    hear of the Roman god Priapus (let's not go too much into that one) or =
    the multitude of hearth & home gods?
    I don't doubt that someone will respond to this post with "Hey, =
    shut up about FR, this is a BR mailing list."
    I'm sorry you think so little of us.
    =20
    It's not that I think little of you. I'm just excessively jaded for =
    my age. :)
    I will qualify my post by saying that I just want everyone else =
    to stop trashing FR in their posts. That's really the only reason I'm =
    writing this.
    =20
    Obviously I do not hesitate to say that I prefer Cerilia to Faerun. =
    Any world where I am able to create a rivalry between a 1st level priest =
    henchman and a 0-level local healer, because the healer is jealous the =
    other has been gifted with magic and she not, well, that's a world you =
    keep. You see, such an event was plausible, there was no difficulty =
    retaining suspension of disbelief, and that by sheer fact that the =
    author's pen made that possible.
    =20
    Due to it's cumbersome nature and extremely unrealistic political =
    structure . . .
    =20
    Cumbersome? How so? The only truly cumbersome thing in my FR =
    campaign is the Big Black Bag, which carries my hoard of reference =
    materials. (most of which are not specifically FR, but are core AD&D =
    rule books and so forth.)


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    Yep.  100%.  FR =
    is fun, and=20
    has it's place, but to a mature and more worldly role-player, =
    Cerilia has it=20
    all.  Playing FR is like reading the Darksword Chronicles, or=20
    something.  Everybody's got magic, even the=20
    farmers...
     
    I'm unfamiliar with the "Darksword =
    Chronicles"=20
    that you refer to, and I sure don't follow the "more mature or =
    worldly=20
    gamer" argument.  Regardless of campaign world, the DM =
    determines=20
    the maturity level of the campaign by the issues that he chooses to =
    explore=20
    in gaming.  Your argument seems to claim that players of FR are =

    "immature" in some fashion.  Eh? 

    It's my duty to defend =
    FR, the=20
    most popular campaign world, well, ever, against=20
    libel.
    Choose "slander" instead.  Libel =
    is=20
    infringement on creative rights.
     
    Actually, no, trust me . . . libel is "a =
    written or=20
    oral defamatory statement."  Perhaps you mean=20
    plagiarism?

      The main =
    complaint: =20
    it has too much magic.  Gee, let me think, that's the DM's =
    decision=20
    completely. <snip>
    And kill Elminster while =
    your at it,=20
    too.  :)  In defense, tho, it's not all the DMs =
    fault.  Ever=20
    try playing with other FR DMs?  Want to hear a DM whine?  =
    Change=20
    the world he DMs when you run it...
     
    Say what?  I really don't =
    know why a=20
    erstwhile DM would complain that the current DM made the world his =
    own . .=20
    .
    Such as =
    the FR campaign=20
    that I currently play in (yes, I play in one and DM another.).  =
    That=20
    campaign takes place with the descendants of the PCs of my campaign, =
    70=20
    years later.  I EXPECT that DM to run things differently . . . =
    and he=20
    does . . . without complaints from any of the people who play in =
    both=20
    campaigns.
     
    In Cerilia there are SOME very powerful =
    mages.  In=20
    Faerun, the are LOTS of VERY POWERFUL mages.  No on in BR =
    approaches=20
    30th level...  That the magic is concentrated in those who hold =
    power=20
    is not outrageous or rediculous, but aren't you the least bit =
    depressed when=20
    your players say "oh, another sword =
    +2".
     
    That last part (disappointment) is in no real =
    danger of=20
    occuring.  The PC with the +2 axe knows that it's an heirloom =
    and fully=20
    intends to use it for as long as the character survives.  The =
    +3 sword=20
    that will soon be introduced (moonblade) is similarly the last =
    weapon that=20
    the PC will expect to earn.  The only magic items that don't =
    generate=20
    joy IMC (FR) are one-shot healing potions.  Anything with =
    multiple=20
    charges or bigger than a dagger +1 still gets the PCs =
    going.
     
    To me Baron Gavin Tael's Iron Guard is perhapst =
    he most=20
    fearsome group of soldiers in all Anuire.  They are tough, =
    militant,=20
    aggressive, and brutal, and they get plate & mail for =
    free.  They=20
    don't hold a candle to a standard Purple Dragons, who =
    average 3rd=20
    to 6th level with a 7th level captain and a wizard of 4th + =
    traveling along=20
    for kicks.  Further, each wizard is armed with two =
    wands=20
    (don't those cost CON points to make?  What's it cost to get =
    folks to=20
    voluntarily sacrifice so much life energy?)  Compare this to =
    the awsome=20
    might of 10 men on of 1st to 2nd level led by a 4th level captain, =
    and their=20
    "magic" is a load of crossbows.  Yes, I can change FR =
    all I=20
    want, but... I don't want to.  I take out the Purple Dragons, I =
    have to=20
    take out the very infrastructure of Azoun and Cormyr...  I =
    don't have=20
    time for that.

      If magic gets =
    out of hand=20
    in ANY campaign, there's only one person to blame.  As a =
    corollary=20
    to that statement, I had a worse problem with magic in my =
    Birthright=20
    campaign than I do in my current FR=20
    campaign.
    "Gee, let me think, that's the DM's =
    decision=20
    completely."

      The problem =
    raced from the=20
    fact that the major NPC's boast some outrageous magic for a =
    world that=20
    pretends to be low-magic.  In my FR campaign, there is no =
    real=20
    danger of my PC's deciding to go hunt down an NPC, even an evil =
    one,=20
    just to take his sword +5 (or whatever).  This happened in=20
    BR.
    Why?  And how does =
    one's foe=20
    being Evil excuse a deed?  Last I looked LG, CG, and LN did not =
    use the=20
    ends to justify the means.
     
    Who said anything about those alignments? (LG, =
    CG,=20
    LN)  This PC was a CN "merchant-prince" (before =
    guilders came=20
    out) with an ambitious streak a mile wide.  He took control of =
    the more=20
    powerful characters in the party through his wit and charm . . . and =
    NEARLY=20
    became the High King of all lands south of Ghoere.
     
    (Sidebar comment:  LN often DOES use =
    "ends=20
    justify the means."  That's why you can have LN Bounty =
    Hunters, LN=20
    Assassins, and LN politicians. (sorry))

    Aramis, a 5th level =
    thief, made=20
    quick work of Guilder Kalien because he wanted the sword =
    +1.  He=20
    broke into Kal-Saitharak
    and, at 7th level, =
    took=20
    Bloodsilver and Prince Fhilaraene (sp?) from the Gorgon's throne =
    room,=20
    despite massive security.
    Your idea of "massive =

    security" and mine must differ.  I guess your 7th level =
    thief=20
    could walk into Elminster's study unscathed too, =
    right?
     
    Um, no . . . Elminster's study is known to be littered with =
    defensive=20
    magic.  Of course, he knocks on the door first.  Friendly =
    and=20
    charming guy that Aramis was, Lhaeo would have screened him =
    thoroughly=20
    before allowing him to disturb the Old Mage.
     
    My idea of massive security:  Aramis is en =
    route to=20
    Kal-Saitharak.  Waylaid by a battle-host of orog cavalry.  =

    Captured.  Locked in a chest for 30 days without food (he did =
    get=20
    rainwater, however.).  In a moment of lax security, the box =
    fell off of=20
    the donkey carrying it.  Through stealth, he escapes and goes =
    limping=20
    home.  Returns.  Reaches said catacombs.  Gets a =
    serious=20
    butt-whuppin' from the local orogs.  Unconscious.  Nursed =
    to a=20
    semblance of health by a low-level mage hiding out in the =
    catacombs. =20
    Uses an entire bag of Beads of Force to immobilize the throne room =
    and make=20
    good his escape.  The real adventure relied on the player's =
    massive=20
    cleverness to AVOID the myriad of guards and traps.
     
      IMC, you don't get =
    into=20
    Battlewaite without invitaion.  If you do, it's through the =
    catacombs,=20
    and they make Undermountain look like Disneyland.  I outright =
    murdered=20
    my last party of foolish 12th level+ who tried to find Halastar's=20
    Hoard.  If you don't want them to have it, kill=20
    them.
     
    DM fairness alert . . . outright party murder is =
    what I=20
    distill from your argument above.  Yeah, sure, if the party =
    goes after=20
    something bigger than they could possibly handle, let them =
    die.  But my=20
    Basic Campaign Lore, the knowledge given to all characters upon =
    entry into=20
    the game, serves as a voice of wisdom.  When they go too deep =
    in the=20
    dungeon or go to a dungeon that is out of their league, I often give =
    them a=20
    "warning encounter" to show them that they are grossly=20
    outclassed.

    What I'm saying is =
    that the BR=20
    designers just sort of threw everything out=20
    there.
    I take serious issue with that kind of =
    slander.  A=20
    practiced political eye shows that to be entirely untrue.  =
    Every realm=20
    has an interaction with every other realm.  If I may ask, just =
    how does=20
    the Moonsea relate to Shadowdale, except via the =
    Zhentarim?
     
    They don't relate much at all.  Why should=20
    they?  Real world example:  How much did, say, the people =
    of=20
    France or Germany (most Dales-like) communicate with the people of =
    Denmark=20
    or Belgium (most Moonsea-like)?

    Most=20
    NPC's of ANY note have serious magic.
     
    As it should be.  Power =
    attracts=20
    power.  And yet by the time a party reached 9th level under my =
    FR game=20
    (using standard goodies and adventures) I had characters with more =
    magic=20
    than any regent of Cerilia.
     
    I think we've already been through the "DM =
    controls=20
    magic" argument.  I don't use modules.  Never =
    have. =20
    Yeah, they hand out too much magic.  I fully agree.  BTW, =
    see=20
    Sindre Berg's post which explores the faults of certain recent BR=20
    modules.  Pay close attention to the magic items ripe for the =
    plucking=20
    if the PCs survive the adventure at all (unlikely, since the =
    villains must=20
    originate in a more high-powered world entirely, and the PCs should =
    not have=20
    enough magic between them to defeat the =
    creature-demon-thing.)

    The other aspect of =
    any arguments=20
    claiming BR to be low-magic is that wizards can't do much as =
    regents=20
    (true) and aren't as dominant as FR wizards.  As to the =
    second=20
    part, bullfeathers.  Take a peek at sources like the Blood =
    Enemies=20
    sourcebook.  Now tell me that wizards aren't as =
    dominant. =20
    Hmmm . . . Magian?  Gorgon?  White Witch? =20
    Banshegh?  Rhoube?  Chimera?  Shall I=20
    continue?
     
    Halastair, Khelban, =
    Elminster, Red=20
    Wizards, Simbul, Tessaril, Vangerdahast...  =
    <shrug>. =20
    Okay... Tael, Swordwraith, Raenech, Diem, Avan, Tuornen, Boeruine, =
    the Mhor,=20
    Dhoesone, Roesone, Aglondier (only 3rd level!).  Balance it out =
    my=20
    friend.  Compare the number of realms ruled by warriors and=20
    "action" types to the wizards.  There is not a single =
    nation=20
    where the ruling class is all wizards (ala =
    Thay).
     
    The Realms are more fully explored by far.  =
    Thayan=20
    culture, focused so greatly around wizardly might, does not fit with =

    Anuire/Cormyr, Rjurik/Rashemen-Dales-Savage North, Vos/Great Grey =
    Land of=20
    Thar, Khinasi/Calimshan, or Brechtur/Sembia-Waterdeep-Amn.  =
    Perhaps if=20
    the BR designers had received their justly-deserved funding, Djapar =
    or=20
    Aduria might have included such a land.
     
    In Eveningstar (Cormyr) Lord =
    Tessaril=20
    Neverwinter helps her 7th level guardsmen keep the peace by using =
    ESP and=20
    insuch and invading the minds of newcomers to discover their=20
    intentions....  That waste of a mage would never happen in =
    cerilia,=20
    there's too few of them as it is, and they can't figure out why =
    magic=20
    dwindles (cut out the heart - i.e. the elvish lands), and the body =
    (magic)=20
    dies"
    Lastly, BE is a sourcebook =
    about=20
    immortal creatures touched by the magic of a dying god.  In a =
    realm=20
    that boasts something of about 50 less gods, this is really an=20
    event.
     
    I really don't understand what you are saying in =
    the above=20
    paragraph.  Asuuming that I'm focusing on the right complaint=20
    here:  Anyone with arguments concerning the FR pantheon need =
    only look=20
    to the average polytheistic pantheon.  Yes, most lists for the =
    Romans,=20
    Greeks, Celts, and others include fewer gods than FR.  All of =
    those=20
    included a mighty host of lesser gods who are seldom =
    mentioned.  How=20
    often do you hear of the Roman god Priapus (let's not go too much =
    into that=20
    one) or the multitude of hearth & home gods?

    I don't doubt that someone will respond to =
    this post=20
    with "Hey, shut up about FR, this is a BR mailing=20
    list."
    I'm sorry you think so little of =

    us.
     
    It's not that I think little of you.  I'm =
    just=20
    excessively jaded for my age. :)

    I will qualify my post by saying that I just =
    want=20
    everyone else to stop trashing FR in their posts.  That's =
    really=20
    the only reason I'm writing this.
     
    Obviously I do not hesitate to say that I prefer =
    Cerilia=20
    to Faerun.  Any world where I am able to create a rivalry =
    between a 1st=20
    level priest henchman and a 0-level local healer, because the healer =
    is=20
    jealous the other has been gifted with magic and she not, well, =
    that's a=20
    world you keep.  You see, such an event was plausible, there =
    was no=20
    difficulty retaining suspension of disbelief, and that by sheer fact =
    that=20
    the author's pen made that possible.
     
    Due to it's cumbersome nature and extremely =
    unrealistic=20
    political structure . . .
     
    Cumbersome?  How so?  The only truly =
    cumbersome=20
    thing in my FR campaign is the Big Black Bag, which carries my hoard =
    of=20
    reference materials. (most of which are not specifically FR, but are =
    core=20
    AD&D rule books and so forth.)
     

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  2. #2
    David Sean Brown
    Guest

    I feel it`s my duty (long as he

    Just wanted to add something to this part of the thread...when you are
    looking at the numbers of dieties in any one campaign setting, take a
    look at the size of the world in question..one of the things I (and
    others) like about BR is the minimal number of gods/goddesses..however,
    trying to compare this to the FR pantheon is a little overboard, as Faerun
    is a LOT bigger than Cerelia..there's nothing to say that in other parts
    of Aebrynus there aren't other gods...and if you think there are too many
    in FR, take a look at Europe way back when ..when each region (Norse,
    Roman, Celtic, Greek, etc) had its own pantheon of gods/goddesses (before
    anyone jumps on this, I DO realize they ALL weren't worshipped at the same
    time..is just a loose example ;) )

    Sena



    Lastly, BE is a sourcebook about immortal creatures touched by the magic
    of a dying god. In a realm that boasts something of about 50 less gods,
    this is really an event.

    I really don't understand what you are saying in the above paragraph.
    Asuuming that I'm focusing on the right complaint here: Anyone with
    arguments
    concerning the FR pantheon need only look to the average polytheistic
    pantheon.
    Yes, most lists for the Romans, Greeks, Celts, and others include fewer
    gods
    than FR. All of those included a mighty host of lesser gods who are
    seldom
    mentioned. How often do you hear of the Roman god Priapus (let's not go
    too
    much into that one) or the multitude of hearth & home gods?

  3. #3
    Kenneth Gauck
    Guest

    I feel it`s my duty (long as he

    - -----Original Message-----
    From: David Sean Brown
    Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 8:32 PM
    >
    >take a look at Europe way back when ..when each region (Norse,
    >Roman, Celtic, Greek, etc) had its own pantheon of gods/goddesses (before
    >anyone jumps on this, I DO realize they ALL weren't worshipped at the same
    >time..is just a loose example ;) )

    They are in fact the same pantheon of gods renamed in every culture you
    mentioned. As Brandes mentioned, the real expansion comes when you have
    minor dieties and the household gods. Early Greek religion was very
    druidic, every natural formation had a god residing there.

    KG

  4. #4
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    I feel it`s my duty (long as he

    David Sean Brown wrote:
    > Just wanted to add something to this part of the thread...when you are
    > looking at the numbers of dieties in any one campaign setting, take a
    > look at the size of the world in question..one of the things I (and
    > others) like about BR is the minimal number of gods/goddesses..<

    For my part, I just don't want to deal with tons of specialty priests.
    Therefore, IMC I say there is only what's listed in the original book
    (eleven), 12 if you count The Serpent, and The Cold Rider makes 13 ...
    that's it IMC, 13 gods.

    13 ... MUWHAHAHAAHAHAHAAA!!!! I smell prophecies and portents and doom!



    Thus, dwarves of Moradin IMC really are the 'domain' of Eric (which
    isn't too hard a stretch of the imagination), goblins & orogs in reality
    give power to Belinik (again, not a big stretch there, right?), and so
    on and so forth. Dwarves still get all the specialty priests stuff that
    they would get from Moradin which Erik grants them (thus, for example
    they get none of the ranger skills, etc).

    Cheers,
    Darren

  5. #5
    JulesMrshn@aol.co
    Guest

    I feel it`s my duty (long as he

    In a message dated 2/21/99 12:41:05 AM Central Standard Time,
    Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca writes:

  6. #6
    Tim Nutting
    Guest

    I feel it`s my duty (long as he

    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    - ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01BE5DFE.7098EFE0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    1 request. In future HTML responses, please reduce your indents to the =
    full left margin, it makes it easier to read the relevant comments, =
    thanks! :)
    I'm unfamiliar with the "Darksword Chronicles" that you refer =
    to, and I sure don't follow the "more mature or worldly gamer" argument. =
    Regardless of campaign world, the DM determines the maturity level of =
    the campaign by the issues that he chooses to explore in gaming. Your =
    argument seems to claim that players of FR are "immature" in some =
    fashion. Eh?
    To be honest, and no intent to be offensive, most of the FR players I =
    have met have tended toward immaturity. We're all guilty of it, and =
    I've encountered my share everywhere, but for some reason, Forgotten =
    Realms, as the AD&D standard official world, seems to attract allot of =
    the monty-hauls, the rules lawyers, etc. This is a statement about my =
    most frequent encounters with players, not about the quality of the =
    material.

    Darksword Chronicles was a series of books by Margaret Weis and Tracy =
    Hickman. Certainly not classics by any stretch, but entertaining =
    escapism. The series is, in short, about a magically dead person in a =
    world where everyone can muster some magic. In looking at all the =
    printed text, the quantity of magic available boggles me. I just =
    purchashed Hellgate Keep, which promises to be quite the dungeon crawl =
    and a "bit o the rough an tumble", and yet with over 20 unique magical =
    items to be found in the module, the note in the book states that of the =
    remaining odd random 15 magical items, all are either armor or specials, =
    and if there is a weapon, it is allways rolled on table 110, and that is =
    modified to produce swords and such. If I develop such an arsenal, it =
    will be in the hands of NPCs!

    The one thing that I can never say about the Realms is that it lacks =
    depth. EVERY PLACE has countless paragraphs detailing everyhting. The =
    stories are almost allways well written and quite involved, with intense =
    histories involved plots. The writers do well, and for the intended =
    type of world, it fits.

    But it is not the type of world that I enjoy to exclusion.

    More worldly refers to, in essense, more earthly experience. By and =
    large the players of BR that I game with average 25 to 30+. We're the =
    old farts of this industry anymore. Though age is not a pre-req for =
    experience OR maturity, it most often is. =20
    Say what? I really don't know why a erstwhile DM would complain =
    that the current DM made the world his own . . .
    Such as the FR campaign that I currently play in (yes, I play in one =
    and DM another.). That campaign takes place with the descendants of the =
    PCs of my campaign, 70 years later. I EXPECT that DM to run things =
    differently . . . and he does . . . without complaints from any of the =
    people who play in both campaigns.

    My friend, you are doubly blessed. Sometimes I wonder why I keep =
    playing these stupid things... I have vowed to never, EVER again run a =
    multi-DM world. I am a creative tyrant. When I wish to change =
    something in the history of a world, I broke no argument. I also inform =
    my players of what has changed from the books.
    That last part (disappointment) is in no real danger of occuring. =
    The PC with the +2 axe knows that it's an heirloom and fully intends to =
    use it for as long as the character survives. The +3 sword that will =
    soon be introduced (moonblade) is similarly the last weapon that the PC =
    will expect to earn. The only magic items that don't generate joy IMC =
    (FR) are one-shot healing potions. Anything with multiple charges or =
    bigger than a dagger +1 still gets the PCs going.

    Kudos to running a well oiled machine. I was something of a bit more =
    green when I began playing FR (back when they revised it for 2nd =
    edition) and I found the game rapidly spiraling out of control. Once =
    you get the items flowing, it is very difficult to get them to stop.
    Who said anything about those alignments? (LG, CG, LN) This PC was =
    a CN "merchant-prince" (before guilders came out) with an ambitious =
    streak a mile wide. He took control of the more powerful characters in =
    the party through his wit and charm . . . and NEARLY became the High =
    King of all lands south of Ghoere.

    You did. "...even an evil one." I do apologize for jumping on it, but =
    I got sick of the hypocirisy shown in months past about "heroic" PCs =
    against "evil" ghallie sidhe (and we hashed it to death guys, I'm though =
    with it)
    (Sidebar comment: LN often DOES use "ends justify the means." =
    That's why you can have LN Bounty Hunters, LN Assassins, and LN =
    politicians. (sorry))

    No. A lawful neutral perhaps could be such, if played loosely. LN =
    descirebes an idividual who believes in the infalibility of the law. =
    The law is perfect and applies perfectly evenly to all people. Without =
    laws, chaos reings. Whether the law encourages repression and slavery =
    or emancipates said slaves, it is the law. To me they are also more =
    bull headed. If the law changes, some will not like it at all, and =
    begin rebelling, but to them, they are still LN.
    Um, no . . . Elminster's study is known to be littered with =
    defensive magic. Of course, he knocks on the door first. Friendly and =
    charming guy that Aramis was, Lhaeo would have screened him thoroughly =
    before allowing him to disturb the Old Mage.

    My players plan the very same theft that Aramis succeeded in. However, =
    I spend an average of a few hours a week going over approaches to =
    Battlewaite and protections for valued treasure (including decoys and =
    simalcrums) and trying to spot new flaws. Gorgy has 1500 years of =
    experience, and if he makes a mistake, it will be due to ego, not lack =
    of attention.
    My idea of massive security:

    Please make no further complaints about ease of entry to a place, etc. =
    Your discription give Aramis far too many chances to live, and outright =
    aid. I would say that your story revolved around him acquiring =
    Fhilarene. Orogs don't quit to take prisoners, they delight in torture, =
    and they like to taste human flesh. Buried under the Stony Butt's =
    house, they likely don't get that much delicacy.

    When my players attempt thier feat, they will have aid. I do intend =
    them to survive the trip, but not make much profit, and probably one or =
    two will die. If they do not die, then probably a few lieutenants or =
    henchmen will. The point is that their object of quest is worth their =
    lives, and giving them will not be such a great sacrifice if it means =
    saving tens of thousands of innocents.

    In fact, later in the campaign the paladin may be forced to lose his =
    class by sacrifising whole nations to chaos and war so that the various =
    factions of the newly reborn Azrai will not be united, and turn on one =
    another rathan than against a common foe... And yet, a year later, the =
    disgraced could earn back his power and title by performing the ultimate =
    deed, and turly ridding Azrai from the face of eternity.
    DM fairness alert . . . outright party murder is what I distill from =
    your argument above. Yeah, sure, if the party goes after something =
    bigger than they could possibly handle, let them die. But my Basic =
    Campaign Lore, the knowledge given to all characters upon entry into the =
    game, serves as a voice of wisdom. When they go too deep in the dungeon =
    or go to a dungeon that is out of their league, I often give them a =
    "warning encounter" to show them that they are grossly outclassed.

    .....

    Okay, shall we reference appendix 42A of the Hackmaster Guide of DM =
    Fairness? ALL of my players are widely experienced, with over five =
    years in the Realms. We were ALL VERY familiar with the dangers of =
    Undermountain. They dared to take it all, and they failed. Did I make =
    traps inescapable? Yes, when they missed the key in my room =
    descriptions. I also played the monsters with a vengance. They fought =
    group tactics, used EVERY edge they could, and then some. The game =
    session was viscious, to the tee, and it was fun. Kind of like running =
    the Tomb of Horrors, you go in expecting to lose 80% of the party...
    I think we've already been through the "DM controls magic" =
    argument. I don't use modules. Never have. Yeah, they hand out too =
    much magic. I fully agree. BTW, see Sindre Berg's post which explores =
    the faults of certain recent BR modules. Pay close attention to the =
    magic items ripe for the plucking if the PCs survive the adventure at =
    all (unlikely, since the villains must originate in a more high-powered =
    world entirely, and the PCs should not have enough magic between them to =
    defeat the creature-demon-thing.)

    I was under the impression that you did use modules. Again, Kudos. =
    Been on limited email access, so haven't read all posts. I would relate =
    such an experience to poor module construction. Again, nothing stops us =
    from modifying the modules. If every my PCs do Sword and Crown, and ANY =
    of them stays to fight Rhuobhe at the end, they will die. Period.
    The Realms are more fully explored by far. Thayan culture, focused =
    so greatly around wizardly might, does not fit with Anuire/Cormyr, =
    Rjurik/Rashemen-Dales-Savage North, Vos/Great Grey Land of Thar, =
    Khinasi/Calimshan, or Brechtur/Sembia-Waterdeep-Amn. Perhaps if the BR =
    designers had received their justly-deserved funding, Djapar or Aduria =
    might have included such a land.

    And yet, of all the races, the Basarji honor mages in their society. If =
    any nation does compare to Thay, it is the collected Basarji lands, and =
    as a result of the huge (comparativlely) quantity of true mages, =
    awnshegh almost rule half the territory. And frankly, I would rather =
    see BR cut than see Thay come to this land. Cerilia is too rich with =
    its own character and detail to rape it by throwing the Realms, or =
    Oerth, or Ravenloft, or Athas, or the Spheres into the mix. If I must =
    make the point so very clear, the style of this land is very much the =
    low magic. This is a realm where you actually will see great armies =
    clashing for massive prizes, and the last thing I want is to have a =
    great army be about 50 well trained 10th level soldiers serving their =
    20th level local lord. Ever notice that almost every ruler in any other =
    world is a retired adventurer? It's almost like a pre-requisite.
    I really don't understand what you are saying in the above =
    paragraph. Asuuming that I'm focusing on the right complaint here: =
    Anyone with arguments concerning the FR pantheon need only look to the =
    average polytheistic pantheon. Yes, most lists for the Romans, Greeks, =
    Celts, and others include fewer gods than FR. All of those included a =
    mighty host of lesser gods who are seldom mentioned. How often do you =
    hear of the Roman god Priapus (let's not go too much into that one) or =
    the multitude of hearth & home gods?

    We missed each other on that one. My complaint was the nature of what I =
    consider to be a Realmsian town, namely Eveningstar in Cormyr, where the =
    Knights of Myth Dranor got their start. The local Lord enforces the law =
    by investigating peoples thoughts to examine their intent. This very =
    though rankles my personal morals to the core! This borders on the very =
    Orwellian concept of thought crimes. How very, very sick.
    It's not that I think little of you. I'm just excessively jaded for =
    my age. :)

    Me too :) (does it show - gasp)
    Cumbersome? How so? The only truly cumbersome thing in my FR =
    campaign is the Big Black Bag, which carries my hoard of reference =
    materials. (most of which are not specifically FR, but are core AD&D =
    rule books and so forth.)

    Hehehe, sounds like my Big Black Bag too. My cumbersome statement =
    referred to the massive and daunting quantity of reference material. =
    No, it's not necessary at all, but there are lots of folks who can't =
    seem to get over that statement, in my experience, and I just may be one =
    of them on occasion ;)

    Later

    Tim Nutting


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    1 =
    request.&nbsp; In future=20
    HTML responses, please reduce your indents to the full left margin, it =
    makes it=20
    easier to read the relevant comments, thanks!&nbsp; :)


    I'm unfamiliar with the &quot;Darksword=20
    Chronicles&quot; that you refer to, and I sure don't follow the=20
    &quot;more mature or worldly gamer&quot; argument.&nbsp; =
    Regardless of=20
    campaign world, the DM determines the maturity level of the =
    campaign by=20
    the issues that he chooses to explore in gaming.&nbsp; Your =
    argument=20
    seems to claim that players of FR are &quot;immature&quot; in =
    some=20
    fashion.&nbsp; Eh?
    To be honest, and no intent to be offensive, most of =
    the FR=20
    players I have met have tended toward immaturity.&nbsp; We're all guilty =
    of it,=20
    and I've encountered my share everywhere, but for some reason, Forgotten =
    Realms,=20
    as the AD&amp;D standard official world, seems to attract allot of the=20
    monty-hauls, the rules lawyers, etc.&nbsp; This is a statement about my =
    most=20
    frequent encounters with players, not about the quality of the=20
    material.
    &nbsp;
    Darksword Chronicles was a series of books by =
    Margaret Weis=20
    and Tracy Hickman.&nbsp; Certainly not classics by any stretch, but =
    entertaining=20
    escapism.&nbsp; The series is, in short, about a magically dead person =
    in a=20
    world where everyone can muster some magic.&nbsp; In looking at all the =
    printed=20
    text, the quantity of magic available boggles me.&nbsp; I just =
    purchashed=20
    Hellgate Keep, which promises to be quite the dungeon crawl and a =
    &quot;bit o=20
    the rough an tumble&quot;, and yet with over 20 unique magical items to =
    be found=20
    in the module, the note in the book states that of the remaining odd =
    random 15=20
    magical items, all are either armor or specials, and if there is a =
    weapon, it is=20
    allways rolled on table 110, and that is modified to produce swords and=20
    such.&nbsp; If I develop such an arsenal, it will be in the hands of=20
    NPCs!
    &nbsp;
    The one thing that I can never say about the Realms =
    is that it=20
    lacks depth.&nbsp; EVERY PLACE has countless paragraphs detailing=20
    everyhting.&nbsp; The stories are almost allways well written and quite=20
    involved, with intense histories involved plots.&nbsp; The writers do =
    well, and=20
    for the intended type of world, it fits.
    &nbsp;
    But it is not the type of world that I enjoy to=20
    exclusion.
    &nbsp;
    More worldly refers to, in essense, more earthly=20
    experience.&nbsp; By and large the players of BR that I game with =
    average 25 to=20
    30+.&nbsp; We're the old farts of this industry anymore.&nbsp; Though =
    age is not=20
    a pre-req for experience OR maturity, it most often is.&nbsp; =


    Say what?&nbsp; I really don't =
    know why a=20
    erstwhile DM would complain that the current DM made the world his =
    own . .=20
    .
    Such as =
    the FR campaign=20
    that I currently play in (yes, I play in one and DM another.).&nbsp; =
    That=20
    campaign takes place with the descendants of the PCs of my campaign, =
    70=20
    years later.&nbsp; I EXPECT that DM to run things differently . . . =
    and he=20
    does . . . without complaints from any of the people who play in =
    both=20
    campaigns.
    &nbsp;
    My friend, you are doubly =
    blessed.&nbsp;=20
    Sometimes I wonder why I keep playing these stupid things...&nbsp; I =
    have vowed=20
    to never, EVER again run a multi-DM world.&nbsp; I am a creative =
    tyrant.&nbsp;=20
    When I wish to change something in the history of a world, I broke no=20
    argument.&nbsp; I also inform my players of what has changed from the=20
    books.

    That last part (disappointment) is in no real =
    danger of=20
    occuring.&nbsp; The PC with the +2 axe knows that it's an heirloom =
    and fully=20
    intends to use it for as long as the character survives.&nbsp; The =
    +3 sword=20
    that will soon be introduced (moonblade) is similarly the last =
    weapon that=20
    the PC will expect to earn.&nbsp; The only magic items that don't =
    generate=20
    joy IMC (FR) are one-shot healing potions.&nbsp; Anything with =
    multiple=20
    charges or bigger than a dagger +1 still gets the PCs=20
    going.
    &nbsp;
    Kudos to running a well oiled =
    machine.&nbsp; I=20
    was something of a bit more green when I began playing FR (back when =
    they=20
    revised it for 2nd edition) and I found the game rapidly spiraling out =
    of=20
    control.&nbsp; Once you get the items flowing, it is very difficult to =
    get them=20
    to stop.

    Who said anything about those alignments? (LG, =
    CG,=20
    LN)&nbsp; This PC was a CN &quot;merchant-prince&quot; (before =
    guilders came=20
    out) with an ambitious streak a mile wide.&nbsp; He took control of =
    the more=20
    powerful characters in the party through his wit and charm . . . and =
    NEARLY=20
    became the High King of all lands south of =
    Ghoere.
    &nbsp;
    You did.&nbsp; &quot;...even an evil =
    one.&quot;&nbsp; I do=20
    apologize for jumping on it, but I got sick of the hypocirisy shown in =
    months=20
    past about &quot;heroic&quot; PCs against &quot;evil&quot; ghallie sidhe =
    (and we=20
    hashed it to death guys, I'm though with it)

    &nbsp;(Sidebar =
    comment:&nbsp; LN often=20
    DOES use &quot;ends justify the means.&quot;&nbsp; That's why you =
    can have=20
    LN Bounty Hunters, LN Assassins, and LN politicians.=20
    (sorry))
    &nbsp;
    No.&nbsp; A lawful neutral perhaps could be such, if =
    played=20
    loosely.&nbsp; LN descirebes an idividual who believes in the =
    infalibility of=20
    the law.&nbsp; The law is perfect and applies perfectly evenly to all=20
    people.&nbsp; Without laws, chaos reings.&nbsp; Whether the law =
    encourages=20
    repression and slavery or emancipates said slaves, it is the law.&nbsp; =
    To me=20
    they are also more bull headed.&nbsp; If the law changes, some will not =
    like it=20
    at all, and begin rebelling, but to them, they are still =
    LN.

    Um, no . . . Elminster's study =
    is known to=20
    be littered with defensive magic.&nbsp; Of course, he knocks on the =
    door=20
    first.&nbsp; Friendly and charming guy that Aramis was, Lhaeo would =
    have=20
    screened him thoroughly before allowing him to disturb the Old=20
    Mage.
    &nbsp;
    My players plan the very same theft =
    that Aramis=20
    succeeded in.&nbsp; However, I spend an average of a few hours a week =
    going over=20
    approaches to Battlewaite and protections for valued treasure (including =
    decoys=20
    and simalcrums) and trying to spot new flaws.&nbsp; Gorgy has 1500 years =
    of=20
    experience, and if he makes a mistake, it will be due to ego, not lack =
    of=20
    attention.

    My idea of massive security:=20
    &lt;snip&gt;
    &nbsp;
    Please make no further complaints =
    about ease of=20
    entry to a place, etc.&nbsp; Your discription give Aramis far too many =
    chances=20
    to live, and outright aid.&nbsp; I would say that your story revolved =
    around him=20
    acquiring Fhilarene.&nbsp; Orogs don't quit to take prisoners, they =
    delight in=20
    torture, and they like to taste human flesh.&nbsp; Buried under the =
    Stony Butt's=20
    house, they likely don't get that much delicacy.
    &nbsp;
    When my players attempt thier feat, they will have =
    aid.&nbsp;=20
    I do intend them to survive the trip, but not make much profit, and =
    probably one=20
    or two will die.&nbsp; If they do not die, then probably a few =
    lieutenants or=20
    henchmen will.&nbsp; The point is that their object of quest is worth =
    their=20
    lives, and giving them will not be such a great sacrifice if it means =
    saving=20
    tens of thousands of innocents.
    &nbsp;
    In fact, later in the campaign the paladin may be =
    forced to=20
    lose his class by sacrifising whole nations to chaos and war so that the =
    various=20
    factions of the newly reborn Azrai will not be united, and turn on one =
    another=20
    rathan than against a common foe...&nbsp; And yet, a year later, the =
    disgraced=20
    could earn back his power and title by performing the ultimate deed, and =
    turly=20
    ridding Azrai from the face of eternity.

    DM fairness alert . . . outright party murder is =
    what I=20
    distill from your argument above.&nbsp; Yeah, sure, if the party =
    goes after=20
    something bigger than they could possibly handle, let them =
    die.&nbsp; But my=20
    Basic Campaign Lore, the knowledge given to all characters upon =
    entry into=20
    the game, serves as a voice of wisdom.&nbsp; When they go too deep =
    in the=20
    dungeon or go to a dungeon that is out of their league, I often give =
    them a=20
    &quot;warning encounter&quot; to show them that they are grossly=20
    outclassed.
    &nbsp;
    .....
    &nbsp;
    Okay, shall we reference appendix 42A of the =
    Hackmaster Guide=20
    of DM Fairness?&nbsp; ALL of my players are widely experienced, with =
    over five=20
    years in the Realms.&nbsp; We were ALL VERY familiar with the dangers of =

    Undermountain.&nbsp; They dared to take it all, and they failed.&nbsp; =
    Did I=20
    make traps inescapable?&nbsp; Yes, when they missed the key in my room=20
    descriptions.&nbsp; I also played the monsters with a vengance.&nbsp; =
    They=20
    fought group tactics, used EVERY edge they could, and then some.&nbsp; =
    The game=20
    session was viscious, to the tee, and it was fun.&nbsp; Kind of like =
    running the=20
    Tomb of Horrors, you go in expecting to lose 80% of the =
    party...


    I think we've already been through the =
    &quot;DM=20
    controls magic&quot; argument.&nbsp; I don't use modules.&nbsp; =
    Never=20
    have.&nbsp; Yeah, they hand out too much magic.&nbsp; I fully=20
    agree.&nbsp; BTW, see Sindre Berg's post which explores the =
    faults of=20
    certain recent BR modules.&nbsp; Pay close attention to the =
    magic items=20
    ripe for the plucking if the PCs survive the adventure at all =
    (unlikely,=20
    since the villains must originate in a more high-powered world =
    entirely,=20
    and the PCs should not have enough magic between them to defeat =
    the=20
    creature-demon-thing.)
    &nbsp;
    I was under the impression that you =
    did use=20
    modules.&nbsp; Again, Kudos.&nbsp; Been on limited email access, so =
    haven't read=20
    all posts.&nbsp; I would relate such an experience to poor module=20
    construction.&nbsp; Again, nothing stops us from modifying the =
    modules.&nbsp; If=20
    every my PCs do Sword and Crown, and ANY of them stays to fight Rhuobhe =
    at the=20
    end, they will die.&nbsp; Period.

    The Realms are more fully explored by far.&nbsp; =
    Thayan=20
    culture, focused so greatly around wizardly might, does not fit with =

    Anuire/Cormyr, Rjurik/Rashemen-Dales-Savage North, Vos/Great Grey =
    Land of=20
    Thar, Khinasi/Calimshan, or Brechtur/Sembia-Waterdeep-Amn.&nbsp; =
    Perhaps if=20
    the BR designers had received their justly-deserved funding, Djapar =
    or=20
    Aduria might have included such a land.
    &nbsp;
    And yet, of all the races, the =
    Basarji honor=20
    mages in their society.&nbsp; If any nation does compare to Thay, it is =
    the=20
    collected Basarji lands, and as a result of the huge (comparativlely) =
    quantity=20
    of true mages, awnshegh almost rule half the territory.&nbsp; And =
    frankly, I=20
    would rather see BR cut than see Thay come to this land.&nbsp; Cerilia =
    is too=20
    rich with its own character and detail to rape it by throwing the =
    Realms, or=20
    Oerth, or Ravenloft, or Athas, or the Spheres into the mix.&nbsp; If I =
    must make=20
    the point so very clear, the style of this land is very much the low=20
    magic.&nbsp; This is a realm where you actually will see great armies =
    clashing=20
    for massive prizes, and the last thing I want is to have a great army be =
    about=20
    50 well trained 10th level soldiers serving their 20th level local =
    lord.&nbsp;=20
    Ever notice that almost every ruler in any other world is a retired=20
    adventurer?&nbsp; It's almost like a pre-requisite.


    I really don't understand what you are =
    saying in the=20
    above paragraph.&nbsp; Asuuming that I'm focusing on the right =
    complaint=20
    here:&nbsp; Anyone with arguments concerning the FR pantheon =
    need only=20
    look to the average polytheistic pantheon.&nbsp; Yes, most lists =
    for the=20
    Romans, Greeks, Celts, and others include fewer gods than =
    FR.&nbsp; All=20
    of those included a mighty host of lesser gods who are seldom=20
    mentioned.&nbsp; How often do you hear of the Roman god Priapus =
    (let's=20
    not go too much into that one) or the multitude of hearth &amp; =
    home=20
    gods?
    &nbsp;
    We missed each other on that one.&nbsp; My complaint =
    was the=20
    nature of what I consider to be a Realmsian town, namely Eveningstar in =
    Cormyr,=20
    where the Knights of Myth Dranor got their start.&nbsp; The local Lord =
    enforces=20
    the law by investigating peoples thoughts to examine their intent.&nbsp; =
    This=20
    very though rankles my personal morals to the core!&nbsp; This borders =
    on the=20
    very Orwellian concept of thought crimes.&nbsp; How very, very=20
    sick.

    It's not that I think little of you.&nbsp; I'm =
    just=20
    excessively jaded for my age. :)
    &nbsp;
    Me too :)&nbsp; (does it show - gasp)

    Cumbersome?&nbsp; How so?&nbsp; The only truly =
    cumbersome=20
    thing in my FR campaign is the Big Black Bag, which carries my hoard =
    of=20
    reference materials. (most of which are not specifically FR, but are =
    core=20
    AD&amp;D rule books and so forth.)
    &nbsp;
    Hehehe, sounds like my Big Black Bag too.&nbsp; My =
    cumbersome=20
    statement referred to the massive and daunting quantity of reference=20
    material.&nbsp; No, it's not necessary at all, but there are lots of =
    folks who=20
    can't seem to get over that statement, in my experience, and I just may =
    be one=20
    of them on occasion ;)
    &nbsp;
    Later
    &nbsp;
    Tim Nutting


    &nbsp;

    - ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01BE5DFE.7098EFE0--

  7. #7
    Senior Member
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    I feel it`s my duty (long as he

    > More worldly refers to, in essense, more earthly experience. By and large the players of BR that I game with average 25 to 30+. We're the old farts of this industry anymore. Though age is not a pre-req for experience OR maturity, it most often is.

    mmm... This makes me really curious about the age of all you posters here
    on the BR mailing list. I really wonder what kinda crowd we have here.
    If anyone wants to divulge to me the secret of their age, please feel free
    to do so. I'm not gonna do anything with it, I just want to know.

    Trying to satisfy curiosity...

    - the Falcon


    PS: I hope this isn't disallowed by mailing list rules or whatsoever... I
    mean no harm...

  8. #8
    DKEvermore@aol.co
    Guest

    I feel it`s my duty (long as he

    In a message dated 2/20/99 9:52:11 PM Central Standard Time,
    c558382@earthlink.net writes:

    > From: David Sean Brown
    > Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 8:32 PM
    > >
    > >take a look at Europe way back when ..when each region (Norse,
    > >Roman, Celtic, Greek, etc) had its own pantheon of gods/goddesses (before
    > >anyone jumps on this, I DO realize they ALL weren't worshipped at the same
    > >time..is just a loose example ;) )
    >
    > They are in fact the same pantheon of gods renamed in every culture you
    > mentioned. As Brandes mentioned, the real expansion comes when you have
    > minor dieties and the household gods. Early Greek religion was very
    > druidic, every natural formation had a god residing there.
    >
    > KG
    >
    Hm. At least that's what the Romans thought. They had a habit of aligning
    foreign gods with their own and "fitting" them in... From what I've seen,
    there were often similarities here and there, but few were really "the same"
    except when the culture was similar. Even then, there might be differences.
    Ex. Welsh, Scottish and Irish deities.

    I'm not convinced about the "druidic"-ness of the early Greek religion,
    either. I've seen some writings where the Greeks seemed to respect the
    druidic religions of their Celtic neighbors, but their attitude, it seems to
    me was more like, "Isn't that quaint. The barbarians managed to place the
    quest for knowledge into a socially important place. Too bad they're only
    barbarians."

    It's also important to note that vast areas of Europe, esp. Celtic and Russian
    pagan areas, had a multitude of gods that seemed to be specific to this or
    that tribe or area. Thus, one could say most of the gods of Europe were minor
    and household ones.

    Well, if you don't agree, you can always delete this. ;)
    - -DKE

  9. #9
    Tim Nutting
    Guest

    I feel it`s my duty (long as he

    I just wanted to throw some more things out on the list here, even though
    they may be considered inflammatory.

    In my continued debate with Brandes, I would like to state that I
    selectively modify any module I come across and have never given out
    everything that they say, no matter who, it has the potential to unbalance
    the DMs carefully controlled game.

    Brandes, you seemed to defend FR by saying "I don't use modules, never
    have..." and then proceed to criticize BR based on modules, specifically
    citing a post by Sindre Berg (which I still haven't read... must've been
    caught in one of my mass deletes). If we are going to compare campaign
    worlds, please let us do it on even ground and compare core Vs. core or
    modules Vs. modules, but not core Vs. modules or vice versa.

    Mayhap it has more to do with familiarity, but I have always found more
    depth of role-playing material available to me in Birthright due to the
    rather sparse material. Having gone back recently to look at the material
    of FR a little close, I see that a few of my posts were indeed groundless.
    FR supports more of a City State nature than BR ever could hope to by nature
    of size. Faerun, by casual estimate, triples Cerilia's size and then some.
    There's allot more space to spread out in the Realms.

    My difficulty with FR has always been the extreme level of power that seems
    to never do anything. The world presented in the core material has a very
    static feel, while a mere glance at Cerilia shows it to be, to me, a far
    more active environment. Proximity and necessity make strange bedfellows
    indeed. Further, BR is the first setting that I have seen give any real
    treatment to the human race besides saying "they're the dominant". I
    couldn't even tell you what the main branch of the human gene pool is in
    Faerun. On a side note, Greyhawk's new look has delved quite a bit more
    into the peoples than ever before.

    Later all

    Tim Nutting

  10. #10
    brandes
    Guest

    I feel it`s my duty (long as he

    >I just wanted to throw some more things out on the list here, even though
    they may be considered inflammatory.
    >
    >In my continued debate with Brandes, I would like to state that I
    >selectively modify any module I come across and have never given out
    everything that they say, no matter who, it has the potential to unbalance
    >the DMs carefully controlled game.
    >
    >Brandes, you seemed to defend FR by saying "I don't use modules, never
    >have..." and then proceed to criticize BR based on modules, specifically
    >citing a post by Sindre Berg (which I still haven't read... must've been
    >caught in one of my mass deletes). If we are going to compare campaign
    >worlds, please let us do it on even ground and compare core Vs. core or
    >modules Vs. modules, but not core Vs. modules or vice versa.


    I'll settle for Core vs. Core . . . since I know the barest minimums
    regarding the modules for either world.

    >Mayhap it has more to do with familiarity, but I have always found more
    >depth of role-playing material available to me in Birthright due to the
    >rather sparse material. Having gone back recently to look at the material
    >of FR a little close, I see that a few of my posts were indeed groundless.
    >FR supports more of a City State nature than BR ever could hope to by
    nature
    >of size. Faerun, by casual estimate, triples Cerilia's size and then some.
    >There's allot more space to spread out in the Realms.
    >
    >My difficulty with FR has always been the extreme level of power that seems
    >to never do anything. The world presented in the core material has a very
    >static feel, while a mere glance at Cerilia shows it to be, to me, a far
    >more active environment. Proximity and necessity make strange bedfellows
    >indeed. Further, BR is the first setting that I have seen give any real
    >treatment to the human race besides saying "they're the dominant". I
    >couldn't even tell you what the main branch of the human gene pool is in
    >Faerun. On a side note, Greyhawk's new look has delved quite a bit more
    >into the peoples than ever before.


    Human derivations in FR? Sure, they're there. There are no special
    abilities attached, of course, but I don't think you were looking for that.
    Here we go:
    Calishites (I'd have to say I think the name is a cheap shot, but never mind
    that . . .) are the people of Calimshan. Their "derivation" spread to
    Tethyr, Amn, and the Lake of Steam. They strongly resemble Khinasi, except
    that they are noticeably more sinister.
    Mulhorandi: The natives of Mulhorand, Unther, and Thay.
    Rashemi: The natives of Rashemen. They spread to Aglarond, Thay, and,
    through a massive (teleportative) exodus, the islands of the Trackless Sea.
    Rjuvik. Any questions?
    Chessenta: These are your average Faerunians. They migrated north across
    the Sea of Dragons to form Sembia, the Dales, the Moonsea city-states, and
    the cities of the Vast. Many also traveled to the Western Heartlands and
    settled there. Think Anuirean.
    Netherese: Though the civilization is thoroughly dead, the survivors
    scattered to the four winds. Some traveled to Cormanthor to found some of
    the Dales, some went to present-day Cormyr, and many others went west to
    build to empires of Ascalhorn and Illefarn, as well as Waterdeep and
    Baldur's Gate.
    The Barbarians: A great many tribes of barbarians left the lands north of
    the Spine of the World and became civilized; others still roam the Savage
    North.
    Languages are based on this assortment of derivations, though it is unlikely
    that any but the Mulhorandi and Calishites (there's that name again) could
    claim any degree of "purity."
    Well, when I started this thread, I had no idea I would wind up discussing
    THIS, of all things.

    Brandes

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