Results 1 to 6 of 6
  1. #1
    Craig Greeson
    Guest

    Fiends in BR (was BR Official A

    Hello all,

    Sindre Berg wrote:
    > Another thing that really gets to me is the fact that there are no more
    > than 4 outer planar creatures in that adventure ? This could just be my
    > not so humble opinion, but why can't you leave the outer planar
    > creatures just there ?? Why should the PC's go around freeing Devas ???

    A little snippet of Sindre's comments on the "Warlock.." module caught my
    attention regarding outer planar creatures in BR. (For the record, I have
    never read "Warlock in its entirety, although the excessive magic items did
    jump out during my page-flipping of the thing.) I'm curious about other
    peoples feelings regarding outer planar creatures in BR.

    I own the Planescape boxed set, but it never did a thing for me. Takes far
    too much of the mystery out of the outer planes, IMO. I don't consider
    Aebrynnis to be connected to other campaign worlds IMC, but I do like to
    reserve the right to use outer planar creatures, specifically fiends, on
    very rare occasions.

    Fortunately for those of us who love BR, Cerilia has the Shadow World and
    the awnsheghlien going for it. The majority of inhuman adversaries should,
    of course, either be spawned from Azrai's blood or SW-based. However, I
    hate to overuse those 2 sources. IMO, the use of an occasional fiend can
    throw a much greater level of uncertainty, wonder, and fear into a
    campaign.

    2 cases in point:
    1- The Sword Mage, in my mind, is probably the most mysterious and
    frightening non-awnshegh character in Cerilia (the Eyeless One is up there
    too). How powerful must a wizard be who can summon fiends to do his
    bidding? What are those creatures like? What could they do to me if we
    met in a dark alley? Could our group's single magical sword even breach
    the creature's defenses?

    2- Awnsheghlien regents are cool, but they're not entirely uncommon.
    However, the Khinasi Direwood holds a real creature of mystery and terror.
    What's the nature of this fiend? Just how powerful is it? Can it summon
    any more of its kind? Are they going to stream out of the forest late some
    night, slay my family and send our souls to some kind of eternal
    torment?

    Anyway, while I agree with Sindre's comments that outer planar creatures
    must be kept minimal, I'd hate to see no fiends in BR. Keep 'em rare and
    they become a great source of mystery and terror, not to mention very
    serious adversaries for a party with few magic items.

    Regards
    Craig

  2. #2
    Sindre Berg
    Guest

    Fiends in BR (was BR Official A

    Craig Greeson wrote:

    > Hello all,
    >
    > Sindre Berg wrote:
    > > Another thing that really gets to me is the fact that there are no
    > more
    > > than 4 outer planar creatures in that adventure ? This could just be
    > my
    > > not so humble opinion, but why can't you leave the outer planar
    > > creatures just there ?? Why should the PC's go around freeing Devas
    > ???
    >
    > A little snippet of Sindre's comments on the "Warlock.." module caught
    > my
    > attention regarding outer planar creatures in BR. (For the record, I
    > have
    > never read "Warlock in its entirety, although the excessive magic
    > items did
    > jump out during my page-flipping of the thing.) I'm curious about
    > other
    > peoples feelings regarding outer planar creatures in BR.
    >
    > I own the Planescape boxed set, but it never did a thing for me.
    > Takes far
    > too much of the mystery out of the outer planes, IMO. I don't
    > consider
    > Aebrynnis to be connected to other campaign worlds IMC, but I do like
    > to
    > reserve the right to use outer planar creatures, specifically fiends,
    > on
    > very rare occasions.
    >
    > Fortunately for those of us who love BR, Cerilia has the Shadow World
    > and
    > the awnsheghlien going for it. The majority of inhuman adversaries
    > should,
    > of course, either be spawned from Azrai's blood or SW-based. However,
    > I
    > hate to overuse those 2 sources. IMO, the use of an occasional fiend
    > can
    > throw a much greater level of uncertainty, wonder, and fear into a
    > campaign.
    >
    > 2 cases in point:
    > 1- The Sword Mage, in my mind, is probably the most mysterious and
    > frightening non-awnshegh character in Cerilia (the Eyeless One is up
    > there
    > too). How powerful must a wizard be who can summon fiends to do his
    > bidding? What are those creatures like? What could they do to me if
    > we
    > met in a dark alley? Could our group's single magical sword even
    > breach
    > the creature's defenses?
    >
    > 2- Awnsheghlien regents are cool, but they're not entirely uncommon.
    > However, the Khinasi Direwood holds a real creature of mystery and
    > terror.
    > What's the nature of this fiend? Just how powerful is it? Can it
    > summon
    > any more of its kind? Are they going to stream out of the forest late
    > some
    > night, slay my family and send our souls to some kind of eternal
    > torment?
    >
    > Anyway, while I agree with Sindre's comments that outer planar
    > creatures
    > must be kept minimal, I'd hate to see no fiends in BR. Keep 'em rare
    > and
    > they become a great source of mystery and terror, not to mention very
    > serious adversaries for a party with few magic items.
    >
    > Regards
    > Craig

    In a way I agree with you, fiends could be used as possible adversaries,
    but then they should be VERY uncommon. I am not necisarily against outer
    planar creatures as such, but at least in the Warlock module, they are
    way out of whack, you could possible meet up to 3 guardian yugoloths and
    the deva there, which IMHO is not what I would call sparingly.

    Another point is that very many of those fiends have a rather powerful
    gating ability which means that statisticly they will be able to gate in
    more and more of the buggers. This has always been one of my major
    problems with the Baatezu and Tanari. Why don't they just take over that
    prime material plane ?

    And my other major problem is that they are way too powerful for my
    liking. IMO they would disrupt the balance of power in Cerilia. At least
    they would if they are played the way I think they should be played.

    About the places and people you mentioned I haven't thought about them
    yet....
    - --
    Sindre

    Take a look at my homepage and Birthright PBMG at:

    www.uio.no/~sindrejb

  3. #3
    Tim Nutting
    Guest

    Fiends in BR (was BR Official A

    >Another point is that very many of those fiends have a rather powerful
    >gating ability which means that statisticly they will be able to gate in
    >more and more of the buggers. This has always been one of my major
    >problems with the Baatezu and Tanari. Why don't they just take over that
    >prime material plane ?


    Now me, I love fiends. In fact I get sick of the B & T and refer to them
    the way they were meant to be referred to, as Devils and Demons
    (respectively). I've used them excessively because I see them as the
    elemental force of evil, what greater evil than a creature that was born of
    that, and that alone.

    The reason that the fiends don't over-run the prime is that they've tried it
    before, and it didn't work. Factor one is the powers. The gods are so
    infinitely more powerful than the fiends (in most cases) that they simply
    can't conscience the demonlings and devilthings over-running their precious
    playgrounds. Teritorialism in action I guess.

    Factor two is the balance issue. The Prime loves to stay in a natural
    balance. Too many from one side start coming in, and a balancing factor
    introduces itself. Even if they take a few spheres, the angels and such
    come running to muck it up for them.

    Factor three is personal power and freedom. Most fiends hate their
    superiors... heck ALL fiends hate their superiors! Whent they finally get
    away, the last thing they want is to collect a huge horde and say "HEY
    BOSS!!! COME GET ME!!!!!!" because Grazz't or Pazrael or Yenoghu or (you get
    the picture) would notice and take advantage of it. Also, the fiends,
    especially the demons, like to turn on each other, and they love being the
    bossman. So they try to keep the numbers controllable by only gating in
    what they can handle.

    Factor four is the mortals (again). When summoned, most fiends can be bound
    to certain conditions, and any smart summoner first bind up his new pets
    gating ability. Usually the pesky heroes wind up banishing the fiend before
    killing the wizard that summoned it, and so the problem is usually averted.

    Sorry for blathering so long!

    >And my other major problem is that they are way too powerful for my
    >liking. IMO they would disrupt the balance of power in Cerilia. At least
    >they would if they are played the way I think they should be played.


    You are right here Sindre. Much as I love the little nasties, they really
    are too powerful in most cases. I suspect that the Sword Mage's summoning
    is quite a bit due to his bloodline as oppposed to his accumulated power.
    To really summon intelligent fiends, you have to be quite high in level.
    The lowliest of summoning spells, ensnarement, is fifth level and a mite bit
    uncontrolable. Or maybe the sucker just loves taking risks....

    Late all!

    Tim Nutting

  4. #4
    Gabriel
    Guest

    Fiends in BR (was BR Official A

    Tim Nutting wrote:

    >
    > >And my other major problem is that they are way too powerful for my
    > >liking. IMO they would disrupt the balance of power in Cerilia. At least
    > >they would if they are played the way I think they should be played.
    >
    > You are right here Sindre. Much as I love the little nasties, they really
    > are too powerful in most cases. I suspect that the Sword Mage's summoning
    > is quite a bit due to his bloodline as oppposed to his accumulated power.
    > To really summon intelligent fiends, you have to be quite high in level.
    > The lowliest of summoning spells, ensnarement, is fifth level and a mite bit
    > uncontrolable. Or maybe the sucker just loves taking risks....
    >
    > Late all!
    >
    > Tim Nutting

    Exactly my situation!! IMC, the party, so powerful that they will soon have to
    leave the plane, has recently come up against the Sword Mage several times. Each
    ime, they ended up dealing almost totally with his summoned devils rather than
    him. And, of course, each time I was faced with a flurry of "How can he have
    gotten so many of them to do his bidding?" and so forth. Besides the fact that I
    have raised him slightly in level so that he can actually be called a proper
    challenge to my party (the campaign has lasted long enough for one of my
    original players to have gone from a 4th level mage to 14th), I decided to
    actually have him have a Bloodform (unbeknownst to my party, excepting the ones
    reading this), which in this case acts to give him enhanced control over
    summoned beings.

    Just thought you might want to know how I've perverted the game,
    Alaric

  5. #5
    Tim Nutting
    Guest

    Fiends in BR (was BR Official A

    >Exactly my situation!! IMC, the party, so powerful that they will soon have
    to
    >leave the plane, has recently come up against the Sword Mage several times.
    Each
    >ime, they ended up dealing almost totally with his summoned devils rather
    than
    >him. And, of course, each time I was faced with a flurry of "How can he
    have
    >gotten so many of them to do his bidding?" and so forth. Besides the fact
    that I
    >have raised him slightly in level so that he can actually be called a
    proper
    >challenge to my party (the campaign has lasted long enough for one of my
    >original players to have gone from a 4th level mage to 14th), I decided to
    >actually have him have a Bloodform (unbeknownst to my party, excepting the
    ones
    >reading this), which in this case acts to give him enhanced control over
    >summoned beings.


    Rather than having your party leave the plane, perhaps you should expand
    their horizons. If they are so powerful, have they faced the Gorgon and all
    his might? How about the Magian? Lastly, who says heroes are the only ones
    who advance in level. Since at least 10% of adventurers are scions (rough
    guestimate you number crunchers - DON'T analyze it) SOME of them have to
    advance in level too. Now, we can get all hoity toity and start analyzing
    exact numbers, but to me there's a reson analysis has its first four
    letters.

    Screw the heavy analysis and go for game playability. If it makes the game
    fun, do it.

    And if they really think they're powerful, convince them to make a bid for
    the Iron Throne.

    later

    Tim

  6. #6
    Gabriel
    Guest

    Fiends in BR (was BR Official A

    Tim Nutting wrote:

    > Rather than having your party leave the plane, perhaps you should expand
    > their horizons. If they are so powerful, have they faced the Gorgon and all
    > his might? How about the Magian? Lastly, who says heroes are the only ones
    > who advance in level. Since at least 10% of adventurers are scions (rough
    > guestimate you number crunchers - DON'T analyze it) SOME of them have to
    > advance in level too. Now, we can get all hoity toity and start analyzing
    > exact numbers, but to me there's a reson analysis has its first four
    > letters.
    >
    > And if they really think they're powerful, convince them to make a bid for
    > the Iron Throne.
    >
    > later
    >
    >

    Laughs hysterically for many a minute before regaining control...
    OK, I don't want to go to deeply into my campaign, because some my players read
    this. However, I'll try to give you an idea of my situation. First off, yes, the
    party has managed to place an NPC on the Iron Throne; specifically, the son of
    one of my original players (the campaign has lasted about 30-35 game years now),
    who unknowingly married a nearly direct descendant of Roele (Plot Device
    warning), masked by magic until the opportunity arose for the bloodline to
    become dominant. And, at the same time, the group had to lead the defense
    against the Gorgon's hordes. Eventually, they won, but the reconstruction of the
    Empire will take a long time. Coincidentally, the destruction took most peoples'
    minds off of protesting against the new emperor. And yes, there are quite a few
    very powerful NPCs out there, some with and some against the PCs. While I'd love
    to discuss all sorts of stuff I'm doing IMC, I'll leave it by saying that the
    Gods are once again picking sides and choosing champions for another important
    war, one which will eventually lead offworld as it stands right now.
    Feel free to E me if you want to continue this discussion away from prying eyes,

    Alaric
    alaric@deltanet.com

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