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Thread: Fiends in BR (was BR Official A
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02-20-1999, 03:41 PM #1Craig GreesonGuest
Fiends in BR (was BR Official A
Hello all,
Sindre Berg wrote:
> Another thing that really gets to me is the fact that there are no more
> than 4 outer planar creatures in that adventure ? This could just be my
> not so humble opinion, but why can't you leave the outer planar
> creatures just there ?? Why should the PC's go around freeing Devas ???
A little snippet of Sindre's comments on the "Warlock.." module caught my
attention regarding outer planar creatures in BR. (For the record, I have
never read "Warlock in its entirety, although the excessive magic items did
jump out during my page-flipping of the thing.) I'm curious about other
peoples feelings regarding outer planar creatures in BR.
I own the Planescape boxed set, but it never did a thing for me. Takes far
too much of the mystery out of the outer planes, IMO. I don't consider
Aebrynnis to be connected to other campaign worlds IMC, but I do like to
reserve the right to use outer planar creatures, specifically fiends, on
very rare occasions.
Fortunately for those of us who love BR, Cerilia has the Shadow World and
the awnsheghlien going for it. The majority of inhuman adversaries should,
of course, either be spawned from Azrai's blood or SW-based. However, I
hate to overuse those 2 sources. IMO, the use of an occasional fiend can
throw a much greater level of uncertainty, wonder, and fear into a
campaign.
2 cases in point:
1- The Sword Mage, in my mind, is probably the most mysterious and
frightening non-awnshegh character in Cerilia (the Eyeless One is up there
too). How powerful must a wizard be who can summon fiends to do his
bidding? What are those creatures like? What could they do to me if we
met in a dark alley? Could our group's single magical sword even breach
the creature's defenses?
2- Awnsheghlien regents are cool, but they're not entirely uncommon.
However, the Khinasi Direwood holds a real creature of mystery and terror.
What's the nature of this fiend? Just how powerful is it? Can it summon
any more of its kind? Are they going to stream out of the forest late some
night, slay my family and send our souls to some kind of eternal
torment?
Anyway, while I agree with Sindre's comments that outer planar creatures
must be kept minimal, I'd hate to see no fiends in BR. Keep 'em rare and
they become a great source of mystery and terror, not to mention very
serious adversaries for a party with few magic items.
Regards
Craig
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02-20-1999, 11:39 PM #2Sindre BergGuest
Fiends in BR (was BR Official A
Craig Greeson wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> Sindre Berg wrote:
> > Another thing that really gets to me is the fact that there are no
> more
> > than 4 outer planar creatures in that adventure ? This could just be
> my
> > not so humble opinion, but why can't you leave the outer planar
> > creatures just there ?? Why should the PC's go around freeing Devas
> ???
>
> A little snippet of Sindre's comments on the "Warlock.." module caught
> my
> attention regarding outer planar creatures in BR. (For the record, I
> have
> never read "Warlock in its entirety, although the excessive magic
> items did
> jump out during my page-flipping of the thing.) I'm curious about
> other
> peoples feelings regarding outer planar creatures in BR.
>
> I own the Planescape boxed set, but it never did a thing for me.
> Takes far
> too much of the mystery out of the outer planes, IMO. I don't
> consider
> Aebrynnis to be connected to other campaign worlds IMC, but I do like
> to
> reserve the right to use outer planar creatures, specifically fiends,
> on
> very rare occasions.
>
> Fortunately for those of us who love BR, Cerilia has the Shadow World
> and
> the awnsheghlien going for it. The majority of inhuman adversaries
> should,
> of course, either be spawned from Azrai's blood or SW-based. However,
> I
> hate to overuse those 2 sources. IMO, the use of an occasional fiend
> can
> throw a much greater level of uncertainty, wonder, and fear into a
> campaign.
>
> 2 cases in point:
> 1- The Sword Mage, in my mind, is probably the most mysterious and
> frightening non-awnshegh character in Cerilia (the Eyeless One is up
> there
> too). How powerful must a wizard be who can summon fiends to do his
> bidding? What are those creatures like? What could they do to me if
> we
> met in a dark alley? Could our group's single magical sword even
> breach
> the creature's defenses?
>
> 2- Awnsheghlien regents are cool, but they're not entirely uncommon.
> However, the Khinasi Direwood holds a real creature of mystery and
> terror.
> What's the nature of this fiend? Just how powerful is it? Can it
> summon
> any more of its kind? Are they going to stream out of the forest late
> some
> night, slay my family and send our souls to some kind of eternal
> torment?
>
> Anyway, while I agree with Sindre's comments that outer planar
> creatures
> must be kept minimal, I'd hate to see no fiends in BR. Keep 'em rare
> and
> they become a great source of mystery and terror, not to mention very
> serious adversaries for a party with few magic items.
>
> Regards
> Craig
In a way I agree with you, fiends could be used as possible adversaries,
but then they should be VERY uncommon. I am not necisarily against outer
planar creatures as such, but at least in the Warlock module, they are
way out of whack, you could possible meet up to 3 guardian yugoloths and
the deva there, which IMHO is not what I would call sparingly.
Another point is that very many of those fiends have a rather powerful
gating ability which means that statisticly they will be able to gate in
more and more of the buggers. This has always been one of my major
problems with the Baatezu and Tanari. Why don't they just take over that
prime material plane ?
And my other major problem is that they are way too powerful for my
liking. IMO they would disrupt the balance of power in Cerilia. At least
they would if they are played the way I think they should be played.
About the places and people you mentioned I haven't thought about them
yet....
- --
Sindre
Take a look at my homepage and Birthright PBMG at:
www.uio.no/~sindrejb
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03-03-1999, 12:39 AM #3Tim NuttingGuest
Fiends in BR (was BR Official A
>Another point is that very many of those fiends have a rather powerful
>gating ability which means that statisticly they will be able to gate in
>more and more of the buggers. This has always been one of my major
>problems with the Baatezu and Tanari. Why don't they just take over that
>prime material plane ?
Now me, I love fiends. In fact I get sick of the B & T and refer to them
the way they were meant to be referred to, as Devils and Demons
(respectively). I've used them excessively because I see them as the
elemental force of evil, what greater evil than a creature that was born of
that, and that alone.
The reason that the fiends don't over-run the prime is that they've tried it
before, and it didn't work. Factor one is the powers. The gods are so
infinitely more powerful than the fiends (in most cases) that they simply
can't conscience the demonlings and devilthings over-running their precious
playgrounds. Teritorialism in action I guess.
Factor two is the balance issue. The Prime loves to stay in a natural
balance. Too many from one side start coming in, and a balancing factor
introduces itself. Even if they take a few spheres, the angels and such
come running to muck it up for them.
Factor three is personal power and freedom. Most fiends hate their
superiors... heck ALL fiends hate their superiors! Whent they finally get
away, the last thing they want is to collect a huge horde and say "HEY
BOSS!!! COME GET ME!!!!!!" because Grazz't or Pazrael or Yenoghu or (you get
the picture) would notice and take advantage of it. Also, the fiends,
especially the demons, like to turn on each other, and they love being the
bossman. So they try to keep the numbers controllable by only gating in
what they can handle.
Factor four is the mortals (again). When summoned, most fiends can be bound
to certain conditions, and any smart summoner first bind up his new pets
gating ability. Usually the pesky heroes wind up banishing the fiend before
killing the wizard that summoned it, and so the problem is usually averted.
Sorry for blathering so long!
>And my other major problem is that they are way too powerful for my
>liking. IMO they would disrupt the balance of power in Cerilia. At least
>they would if they are played the way I think they should be played.
You are right here Sindre. Much as I love the little nasties, they really
are too powerful in most cases. I suspect that the Sword Mage's summoning
is quite a bit due to his bloodline as oppposed to his accumulated power.
To really summon intelligent fiends, you have to be quite high in level.
The lowliest of summoning spells, ensnarement, is fifth level and a mite bit
uncontrolable. Or maybe the sucker just loves taking risks....
Late all!
Tim Nutting
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03-03-1999, 03:33 AM #4GabrielGuest
Fiends in BR (was BR Official A
Tim Nutting wrote:
>
> >And my other major problem is that they are way too powerful for my
> >liking. IMO they would disrupt the balance of power in Cerilia. At least
> >they would if they are played the way I think they should be played.
>
> You are right here Sindre. Much as I love the little nasties, they really
> are too powerful in most cases. I suspect that the Sword Mage's summoning
> is quite a bit due to his bloodline as oppposed to his accumulated power.
> To really summon intelligent fiends, you have to be quite high in level.
> The lowliest of summoning spells, ensnarement, is fifth level and a mite bit
> uncontrolable. Or maybe the sucker just loves taking risks....
>
> Late all!
>
> Tim Nutting
Exactly my situation!! IMC, the party, so powerful that they will soon have to
leave the plane, has recently come up against the Sword Mage several times. Each
ime, they ended up dealing almost totally with his summoned devils rather than
him. And, of course, each time I was faced with a flurry of "How can he have
gotten so many of them to do his bidding?" and so forth. Besides the fact that I
have raised him slightly in level so that he can actually be called a proper
challenge to my party (the campaign has lasted long enough for one of my
original players to have gone from a 4th level mage to 14th), I decided to
actually have him have a Bloodform (unbeknownst to my party, excepting the ones
reading this), which in this case acts to give him enhanced control over
summoned beings.
Just thought you might want to know how I've perverted the game,
Alaric
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03-04-1999, 02:43 AM #5Tim NuttingGuest
Fiends in BR (was BR Official A
>Exactly my situation!! IMC, the party, so powerful that they will soon have
to
>leave the plane, has recently come up against the Sword Mage several times.
Each
>ime, they ended up dealing almost totally with his summoned devils rather
than
>him. And, of course, each time I was faced with a flurry of "How can he
have
>gotten so many of them to do his bidding?" and so forth. Besides the fact
that I
>have raised him slightly in level so that he can actually be called a
proper
>challenge to my party (the campaign has lasted long enough for one of my
>original players to have gone from a 4th level mage to 14th), I decided to
>actually have him have a Bloodform (unbeknownst to my party, excepting the
ones
>reading this), which in this case acts to give him enhanced control over
>summoned beings.
Rather than having your party leave the plane, perhaps you should expand
their horizons. If they are so powerful, have they faced the Gorgon and all
his might? How about the Magian? Lastly, who says heroes are the only ones
who advance in level. Since at least 10% of adventurers are scions (rough
guestimate you number crunchers - DON'T analyze it) SOME of them have to
advance in level too. Now, we can get all hoity toity and start analyzing
exact numbers, but to me there's a reson analysis has its first four
letters.
Screw the heavy analysis and go for game playability. If it makes the game
fun, do it.
And if they really think they're powerful, convince them to make a bid for
the Iron Throne.
later
Tim
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03-04-1999, 04:13 AM #6GabrielGuest
Fiends in BR (was BR Official A
Tim Nutting wrote:
> Rather than having your party leave the plane, perhaps you should expand
> their horizons. If they are so powerful, have they faced the Gorgon and all
> his might? How about the Magian? Lastly, who says heroes are the only ones
> who advance in level. Since at least 10% of adventurers are scions (rough
> guestimate you number crunchers - DON'T analyze it) SOME of them have to
> advance in level too. Now, we can get all hoity toity and start analyzing
> exact numbers, but to me there's a reson analysis has its first four
> letters.
>
> And if they really think they're powerful, convince them to make a bid for
> the Iron Throne.
>
> later
>
>
Laughs hysterically for many a minute before regaining control...
OK, I don't want to go to deeply into my campaign, because some my players read
this. However, I'll try to give you an idea of my situation. First off, yes, the
party has managed to place an NPC on the Iron Throne; specifically, the son of
one of my original players (the campaign has lasted about 30-35 game years now),
who unknowingly married a nearly direct descendant of Roele (Plot Device
warning), masked by magic until the opportunity arose for the bloodline to
become dominant. And, at the same time, the group had to lead the defense
against the Gorgon's hordes. Eventually, they won, but the reconstruction of the
Empire will take a long time. Coincidentally, the destruction took most peoples'
minds off of protesting against the new emperor. And yes, there are quite a few
very powerful NPCs out there, some with and some against the PCs. While I'd love
to discuss all sorts of stuff I'm doing IMC, I'll leave it by saying that the
Gods are once again picking sides and choosing champions for another important
war, one which will eventually lead offworld as it stands right now.
Feel free to E me if you want to continue this discussion away from prying eyes,
Alaric
alaric@deltanet.com
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