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  1. #1
    Junior Member master_guelfi's Avatar
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    Are you a old player a little tired to see all the same Anuire Nobles, Khinasi Wizards and Dwarf Fighters? So this is the topic for you!
    We, the Birthright Brazil Team, created a new region. A new country in the east bordes of the Cerilia Oceans. A Land of Samurais and mystical ninjas, everything adapted with the Cerilia idea. The Land of Tan Pin is a land ravaged for the war of his shoguns, lords of his nations with common powers, but everything has changed since a Brechtur Trading Vessel came to the Tan Pin. The Shoguns, obcessed in his search for victory, came to Cerilia to pratice Bloodtheft and raise like new Scion Lords. Now, the Scions are in shock with this new situation. A new people to steal his precious bloodlines, and to expand his empire. The Tan Pin Shoguns bring to our great scenario a new menace and a new possibility of adventures. If the Demon Lords that lives in the deepest abyss of Tan Pin have potential like Azrai? And if the Spirits of the Houses decide to fight with them what gonna happen? A new Mount Desmmar day!
    Send your opinions, great Friends!
    Quoth the raven: Nevermore!!!;

  2. #2
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    I would not add any new human deities.

    The 2nd ed literature was pretty specific that the present deities were descended from the "old" gods and that they were the gods of the Andu and Masela (i.e., people not native to Cerilia).

    Since all of the "old" human gods were involved at Deismaar - it makes things too complicated to introduce a new pantheon that was unknown to the "old gods" at the time - remember that dieties are omniprescient.

    This Demon Lord deity could however be an aspect of Azrai that arose since Deismaar. That would work continuity-wise and could make for an interesting story. Another possibility is that these "new" gods are more children of the present deities of Cerilia (like Laerme, Cuircean and Eloele) only with different parental sets. This could also work since the new races didn't start with bloodlines which would indicate they are more recent than the known races of Cerilia.

    One thing that will never happen - the "new" gods will never again assume physical form and battle on Aebrynnis. That is something they all swore following Deismaar. Now the "children" (Laerme, Cuircean and Eloele) on the other hand weren't around at the time and could conceivably manifest themselves in a reproduction of Deismaar - but that is a whole lot more limiting.

    It is an interesting concept at the very least.
    Duane Eggert

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    All the human gods present at Desimar were patrons of the various human races present. But is it not possible that there were human races that were not present? The battle primarily dealt with the fate of Cerelia. Would a human race that was from a continent on the far side of the world be present or interested? Probably not. Could not these races have patron deities as the Cerelian humans had previous to Desimar.

    These other human deities could have existed and ruled much like the Desimar deities, but because their flock was not in jeopardy they were not present at the battle to be killed. The point about omniprescient of the old and new deities that you bring up is a good one, but not hard to work around. The old and new gods could know about these other deities. But because their domains do not overlap in Cerelia, they dont talk about these other deities to their Cerelian clergy to much. The average Cerelian follow of Sera can probably get by without to much knowledge of far flung gods, thus these gods didnt get into the original source books which were written with a primarily Cerelian human perspective.

    Of course one might wonder why gods of far flung humans have not told their followers of Cerelia, where the blood of gods is to be stolen. But perhaps the Demon Lord isnt really on speaking terms with most people from T'an Pin. Or far flung gods dont want to lose their flock to Cerelian influence.

    I think other human gods are indeed possible, but should be carefully considered. New gods more easily fits with an interpetation of gods as merely powerful ershegh (sp) rather than ominpresent and omnipotent gods like Christianty. Then different local deities is easier to work in.

    This opens up some interesting thoughts:
    Are there other gods with temperment and portfolio similar to Cerelian Gods? Could godly alliances be in the works.

    Did other gods vow not to meet in battle? Or are they just more wary after the Desimar example. If gods are omniprescient wouldnt they have know that the death of deities, ala Desimar, was possible and made the vow before Desimar?

    Does Azrai have other evil enemies?


    Interesting idea Brazil.

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    Junior Member master_guelfi's Avatar
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    OK... A New Deismmar is out of the possibilities, but the Shoguns dont need to made part of a catastrophy like what happened with the ancient gods. The most important racial trait in the people of Tan Pin is the ancient war of Shoguns and the recent fact of a new land to conquest in the west. The Gods of Tan Pin could be personifications of the gods of Cerilia, but with typical names like: Hong-Sheru, The Dragon Lord of Nobility and Law is a personification of Haelyn. This will create a new culture shock. What the paladins of Haelyn will gonna say of the paladins of Hong-Sheru? Is too many possibilities...
    Quoth the raven: Nevermore!!!;

  5. #5
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    All the human gods present at Desimar were patrons of the various human races present. But is it not possible that there were human races that were not present? The battle primarily dealt with the fate of Cerelia. Would a human race that was from a continent on the far side of the world be present or interested? Probably not. Could not these races have patron deities as the Cerelian humans had previous to Desimar.
    Not quite. Azrai was attempting to destroy the world via chaos, etc. The remaining human gods joined against their brother. Elves followed anyone who would lead a fight agains the humans (as Azrai promised) but then realized that he was a liar and would destroy the land also. Moradin saw no clear threat since his people lived beneath the ground and he saw this as a clash on the surface. Besides he was preoccupied with his fight agains the Orogs and their their deity.

    Also remember where did the Basarji come from? They didn't come from Aduria like the other races. Nor did the Masela. So other human races from the far places of the globe were actually adressed.

    These other human deities could have existed and ruled much like the Desimar deities, but because their flock was not in jeopardy they were not present at the battle to be killed. The point about omniprescient of the old and new deities that you bring up is a good one, but not hard to work around. The old and new gods could know about these other deities. But because their domains do not overlap in Cerelia, they dont talk about these other deities to their Cerelian clergy to much. The average Cerelian follow of Sera can probably get by without to much knowledge of far flung gods, thus these gods didnt get into the original source books which were written with a primarily Cerelian human perspective.

    Of course one might wonder why gods of far flung humans have not told their followers of Cerelia, where the blood of gods is to be stolen. But perhaps the Demon Lord isnt really on speaking terms with most people from T'an Pin. Or far flung gods dont want to lose their flock to Cerelian influence.

    New gods more easily fits with an interpetation of gods as merely powerful ershegh (sp) rather than ominpresent and omnipotent gods like Christianty. Then different local deities is easier to work in.
    Unfortuneately an erhsegh is a "non-evil, i.e. non-Azrai" scion. That means the blood of the old gods in a non-deity. Simply making ershegh deities like this messes up the divine spell aspect, etc. an awful lot. Plus that means they had to come from Cerilia (or near Deismaar) originally which doesn't seem to follow the history that Going with them possibily being very minor deities, possibly on their way to becoming more powerful (ala Deities and Demigods) is a possibility. But this doesn't really work with the ancientness of this new race that master_guelfi seems to be going towards.

    Plus the deity structure in D&D is not really based on Christianity, but is based on mythology and historical anacronisms. See Deities and Demigods to see the other pantheons (notably non-Christian).

    There are some references to the gods and formation of Abryennis in BoR and Blood Spawn. Continuity is important to maintain. Game mechanic rules can be modified but should be consistent (that is going from 2nd ed to 3.5 causes things to change anyway).
    Duane Eggert

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by master_guelfi@Nov 12 2004, 01:40 PM
    OK... A New Deismmar is out of the possibilities, but the Shoguns dont need to made part of a catastrophy like what happened with the ancient gods. The most important racial trait in the people of Tan Pin is the ancient war of Shoguns and the recent fact of a new land to conquest in the west. The Gods of Tan Pin could be personifications of the gods of Cerilia, but with typical names like: Hong-Sheru, The Dragon Lord of Nobility and Law is a personification of Haelyn. This will create a new culture shock. What the paladins of Haelyn will gonna say of the paladins of Hong-Sheru? Is too many possibilities...
    Interesting concepts. Now to fine tune it some more.

    If they are worshipping aspects of the Cerilan deities (e.g., Haelyn) then they would have to be a "recent" race. Otherwise what did they worship before Deismaar? If it was the old gods then how do they explain the sudden changes? Were they non worshippers of deities (e.g., instead worshipping their Shogun as if a deity)? The new gods have slightly different portfolios than did the old ones. Even though the old gods portfolios were never fully detailed, some differences between them and the new gods was at least inferred. Perhaps the priesthood is a new concept to the T'an Pin corresponding with the reaching out of the new human deities to attempt to bring in another race once they were deemed worthy?

    Does the lawful aspect of the T'an Pin really have paladins like Haelyn? In the 2nd ed material even though all of the human races recognized Haelyn only the Anuireans and Khinasi were "allowed" to have paladins of Haelyn (or of any deity for that matter). This restriction could be extended to the T'an Pin also.

    Keep it up this is an interesting concept.
    Duane Eggert

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    Unfortuneately an erhsegh is a "non-evil, i.e. non-Azrai" scion. That means the blood of the old gods in a non-deity. Simply making ershegh deities like this messes up the divine spell aspect, etc. an awful lot. Plus that means they had to come from Cerilia (or near Deismaar) originally which doesn't seem to follow the history that Going with them possibily being very minor deities, possibly on their way to becoming more powerful (ala Deities and Demigods) is a possibility. But this doesn't really work with the ancientness of this new race that master_guelfi seems to be going towards.
    Actually I wasnt trying to say these other old gods were blooded by the gods of Desimar. I seem to recall some erhsegh which might have had the ability to grant followers divine spells. One might think of a spectrum of Gods. At one end very minor divine creatures which can grant divine spells to some followers. At the other end a full blown universal enitity with omnipresence, omnipotence, omni-everything else. If the gods of Birthright are closer to the lesser interpretation, then it is easier to believe that there might be local deities. That was what I was trying to get at with an erhsegh-like label.

    Also remember where did the Basarji come from? They didn't come from Aduria like the other races. Nor did the Masela. So other human races from the far places of the globe were actually adressed.
    Actually I think this helps the case for other local deities not present at Desimar. Each human race which came to Cerelia brought their parton's church. Would the Andu living in Aduria have know about Masela the god before they met the Masaetians?

    If the old gods were more universal it brings up some interesting problems. Humans on the far side of the world would have lost their old gods and not had much of a clue why. This has happened in a few fantasy novels I can think of (krynn comes to mind), and might be an interesting thing to explore. Haelyn was just a Anuerian man, would people on the far side of the planet start worshiping him? Or do they worship him by another name without knowing his history? How would a new church like that start up? ["Hi, ...um... you dont know me, but ....um... I'm Haelyn. Hi... Would you like ...er... like to .... like worship me? Oh...and I wrote down some laws for you to obey....um... if you want."]

    Other interesting thoughts are:
    How many bloodlines have progressed to other regions? By some versions of the BRCS rules (2e included) it was near impossible for non-scions to rule domains. Other versions at least give a scion a big leg up. Have a few blooded people gone to far flung regions and managed to carve out empires. Would a blooded Marco Polo have become the ruler of the Mongol empire instead of just a flamboyant traveler? Maybe our PCs should emigrate instead of gunning for the Iron Throne.

    There are some references to the gods and formation of Abryennis in BoR and Blood Spawn. Continuity is important to maintain. Game mechanic rules can be modified but should be consistent (that is going from 2nd ed to 3.5 causes things to change anyway).
    It has been mentioned in other threads that the canon material is generally written from a human Cerelian perspective. Not too hard to explain why Cerelians might have put their old gods in the major parts of the creation of the universe. Even the Cerelian elves might disagree.
    Im also looking at this as not an extension of the canon, but rather as an interesting homebrew. If master_guelfi meant it as a new gospel truth, then maybe I dont think its such a great idea as much.

  8. #8
    Junior Member master_guelfi's Avatar
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    After a lot of considering things to put on our way finally the People of the Sun!!!

    The members of all the famillies from T'an Pin when they reach the 13 years old, was selected to the Shogun lords from Cerilia to join to the Dragon Army, in the ancient war from their God for the Last one Emperor who have won the eternal dragon war.

    The Dragon God, Hong-Sheru was the master of the blade and the dragon-king of the honor, a fact that matters a lot to the people of the Sun

    The warriors of T'an Pin are masters of the Blade (a long straight sword named "katana"), crossbow experts and wise priests, following the preceives of the Dragon-King

    Hong-Sheru, is a god from the old gods age, like Azrai and Anduiras. Hong-Sheru don't came to the Battle of the Mount Deismmar just because the Eternal Dragon War wasn't over yet.

    The Clerics of Hong-Sheru dissaprove the idea to invade Cerilia, but the war thirsth of the Shogun Lords was more strong than the prayers of the Priests, at least now...

    The T'an Pin was a new human tribe following the same rules from the other tribes:

    Resistence Bonus: +1 in Will Saves
    Background skills: Concetration, Spot, Knowledge[Religion] and Warcraft.
    Alignment:Lawfull Neutral

    HONG-SHERU,
    Lord of the Honor, master of the blade, Dragon-King
    Domains: Honor, War, Fire, Law and Sun
    alignment: Lawfull Neutral
    Favorite Weapon:Katana

    Greetings,
    Quoth the raven: Nevermore!!!;

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