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Thread: Regency and Wizards (longish) w
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02-17-1999, 10:35 PM #1JulesMrshn@aol.coGuest
Regency and Wizards (longish) w
In a message dated 99-02-16 03:26:59 EST, you write:
Do the masses need to be in the same province as the regent? If the wizard
has a source in another province (empty of people or not), and forges a ley
line to
the province he inhabits (say, Ilien), won't he gain the respect of the
inhabitants of this province? He will surely be able to spend RP there. If
his
magical power comes from undeveloped land, why should it be any different?>>
Let me see what you are saying her. You think ley lines should gain Regency?
Ley lines cost regency, they do not gain them.
>> But there is another argument to be made about the fame-regency connection.
If
an Anuirean regent tries to create a holding in Vosgaard, where noone has
ever
heard of him, won't he get the benefit of his Regency? The respect he garners
in
Anuire won't help him much here, but I'd say his personal aura and connection
with the land would let him.> If fame and respect is the real power of regency, then I'd question why
bloodlines and holdings are the only sources of RP. A wizard (or even a
magician) who builds himself a reputation with his spells, or a rogue who
becomes a feared assassin, should logically gain much more fame, much more
mystique, and hence much more RP than a wizard who remains secluded and never
leaves his tower. I'm also not sure that such respect could be used to power
wizard spells. There is another line that says "his unseen aura of power
helps
him do things that lesser mortals couldn't even dream about". I like this
explanation of regency better, since it explains both why bloodlines are
important to Regency, why anonymous regents can gain RP, and why the RPs from
different holdings are lumped together.>I personally think Regency Points are a very abstract thing. A construct of
the
rules to represent a combination of personal power, influence, magical power,
mystical connection between land and regent, and effort that can be applied
towards the success of a particular that can be applied to the success of a
task. Some characters will use more of one element than another; some tasks
may
require more magical power, some more influence, and so on.
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02-17-1999, 11:01 PM #2OlesensGuest
Regency and Wizards (longish) w
JulesMrshn@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 99-02-16 03:26:59 EST, you write:
>
> so it may need to be taken with a grain of salt. =)
>
> That is your choice. My belief is that the scholars are justifing a connection
> that is very mysterious to the BR world.
>
> >>Do the masses need to be in the same province as the regent? If the wizard
> has a source in another province (empty of people or not), and forges a ley
> line to
> the province he inhabits (say, Ilien), won't he gain the respect of the
> inhabitants of this province? He will surely be able to spend RP there. If
> his
> magical power comes from undeveloped land, why should it be any different?>>
>
> Let me see what you are saying her. You think ley lines should gain Regency?
> Ley lines cost regency, they do not gain them.
No. The ley line is the method, not the point. I believe the question was about
gaining respect in Ilien even through he controls no source there (but does have
acess to a level 7 source on Caercorynn)
>
>
> >> But there is another argument to be made about the fame-regency connection.
> If
> an Anuirean regent tries to create a holding in Vosgaard, where noone has
> ever
> heard of him, won't he get the benefit of his Regency? The respect he garners
> in
> Anuire won't help him much here, but I'd say his personal aura and connection
> with the land would let him.
> The regent gains respect as his power grows. Holdings do not appear out of no
> where. There is a lot of work that goes into them. Regency is GAINED from the
> people-regent connection. The rules for it use are clearly stated in the book.
Yep, yep, yep.
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02-17-1999, 11:08 PM #3JulesMrshn@aol.coGuest
Regency and Wizards (longish) w
In a message dated 99-02-17 18:03:01 EST, you write:
>
That is streching the rules. You only gain regency from holdings. Scions who
have no holdings do not gain any regency.
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02-17-1999, 11:36 PM #4Mathieu RoyGuest
Regency and Wizards (longish) w
JulesMrshn@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 99-02-16 03:26:59 EST, you write:
>
>
> That is your choice. My belief is that the scholars are justifing a connection
> that is very mysterious to the BR world.
I think so, too. But what I was pointing out is that what the scholars say is not
necessarily true. Or false, for that matter. The definition you use is one made by
characters in the world, who do not know how the rules work and that may cause
their definition to be inaccurate.
> [Snip argument restated below]
> Let me see what you are saying her. You think ley lines should gain Regency?
> Ley lines cost regency, they do not gain them.
No, that's not I was saying. I was trying to point out that even using your
definition "worship" as the basis for Regency doesn't require that people be in
the same province as the source. Ley lines by themselves garner no regency. But
they would certainly give the wizard some "mystique", some respect with the masses
in that province, regardless of how many people are in the source province and how
much they know and respect the wizard. You say that if there is no people at the
source province, there can be no "mystique", thus no Regency. I say that the power
from that source can be used to engender "fame" and "respect" in another province,
thus justifying regency gained from the source. The ley line does cost RP to
maintain, but that's not relevant to the argument.
> [Snip]
> The regent gains respect as his power grows. Holdings do not appear out of no
> where. There is a lot of work that goes into them. Regency is GAINED from the
> people-regent connection. The rules for it use are clearly stated in the book.
I'm not sure the rules so clearly support your interpretation, since they also
state clearly that it is connection with the *land*, not the *people*, that brings
Regency. This is why the definition of Regency is so fuzzy. I think the authors
left the definitions unclear on purpose.
> [Snip]
> Not really (though this is the big problem with classes). The Wizard is intune
> with only the RPs garnished from his magical workings. The bloodline would not
> gather regency from guild holdings since the Wizards main focus is magic and
> wizardry, and that is what the bloodline is in tune with.
What I meant is that, for example, a dual or multi-classed thief-mage would gain
regency from both guild and source holdings, as well as provinces, and the RP
would be lumped together; the pool could then be used to cast realm spells, rule
guild holdings, agitate in provinces, or even create temple holdings, without
regard to the origin of those regency points.
> The "connection" can be annomus, but respect and regency can still be
> gathered. I think your reasoning is of. You are looking at this with a tunnel
> vision. The connection is still made weither Joe shmoe or Kong the unbeatable
> controls the holding. It is still "controlled" by the owning regent, so he
> still recieves the respect and therefore the regency.
I think I see your argument -- that blooded regents are like little gods, and that
they, like gods, gain power from "worship"; once gained, this power can be used in
other purposes that would not seem to require respect. I just think that this
definition is not sufficient, since a blooded wizard with souces can be so
secretive that neither Joe nor Kong nor anyone else will have ever heard of him.
How can he gain regency then? If Thaddeus, a 20th-level human wizard, somehow
clears the Giantdowns, places good King Ralph on the throne, and then strives to
continually aid the people with his magic, but never controls a holding, won't he
gain respect, mystique and "worship" that would lead to him gaining Regency under
that definition?
I would really prefer if wizards gained magical energy directly from their
sources, and not from the respect garnered by their holdings and/or deeds.
> >>I personally think Regency Points are a very abstract thing. A construct of
> the rules to represent a combination of personal power, influence, magical
> power, mystical connection between land and regent, and effort that can be
> applied towards the success of a particular that can be applied to the success
> of a task. Some characters will use more of one element than another; some
> tasks may require more magical power, some more influence, and so on.
> They are not as abstract as you might think. They are very logical, that is
> why they are easy to accept. The bloodlines are "Blood" of the Gods. Gods
> collect their power from worshipers, so regents would also gain power from the
> people. To say they don't have the blood of the old gods would be to deny most
> of the story. I
I think there was an unfinished thought here...
An abstract thing is not an illogical thing, quite the opposite in fact. Regency
is an abstract thing because logically, only a combination of factors could lead
to the results RP can get. Actions that require RP are actually complex
combinations of actions by different people; for example, an espionage action
might require contacting several, unrelated agents through intermediaries. Regency
provides a convenient way to gloss over the myriad actions and effort and uses of
favors and influence that are required by rulership.
Regency requires a bloodline because the connection to the land is the most
important aspect of BR Regency. Cerilia is a land that breathes magic; Bloodlines
allow the user to tap this magic and perform better as a ruler than an unblooded
individual could. An unblooded individual might be crowned king in BR, but he
would collect no regency; he may be able to cause actions similar to those that
cost RP to happen, like he would do in another world, but this would be much less
effective compared to what a blooded regent could accomplish with RP.
> >> To keep it simple, Birthright has a very abstract empire-building system,
> and the Regency Points (like the Gold Bars) are part of that abstraction. That
> is why there is quite a bit of hand-waving involved with so many of the rules
> (Rule actions, holding levels, military units, and so on).
> Yes but simplistic does not mean illogical. The game is simplistic. There are
> logical reasons why everything is done a certain way.
Exactly what in stating that Regency is, at its root, a rules simplification is
illogical? It works well within the fiction, and it makes the game easier to
handle, so it is logical both from a world and from a game standpoint.
Mathieu
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02-18-1999, 07:13 AM #5JulesMrshn@aol.coGuest
Regency and Wizards (longish) w
In a message dated 99-02-17 18:35:18 EST, you write:
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02-18-1999, 07:16 AM #6JulesMrshn@aol.coGuest
Regency and Wizards (longish) w
In a message dated 99-02-17 18:35:18 EST, you write:
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02-18-1999, 07:17 AM #7JulesMrshn@aol.coGuest
Regency and Wizards (longish) w
In a message dated 99-02-17 18:35:18 EST, you write:
>
I don't believe saying anything about how they have to be used. To restrict
RPs to be used on the things they are earned from would be just plain wrong.
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