Sources on the isle of Caelcorw

[Olesens]

the Falcon wrote:

> > Note that these two islands have remained unsettled for over a five hundred years.
> > There has to be a reason for this (For example: The isle of Talme off Ilien is
> > unsettled because it is volcanic rock, which sucks for farming). Pirates? Shadow
> > world portal?
>
> To me, the isle of Talme off of the coast of Ilien is unsettle because
> it's just so freakin small. That's the way I see it. Anyways, the prime
> reason why I was askin you people in the list on the subject above, is
> that no other mage has any sources on them, and I wondered why.
>
> > I'd personally keep the source value at its terrain max (5 for plains, etc) and not
> > grant it any bonuses. After all, a province (0) has so few people it doesn't even
> > effect the land. As for creating holdings in a "nonexsistent" province, the rules
> > are blank. Technically, you can only create holdings in established provinces. It
> > makes no sence to me (well, for source holdings at least). I would allow my wizard
> > to treat the province as a level 0 for purposes of creating source holdings, but
> > there would be no extra benefits.
>
> But how dificult and how costly would it be for the wizard? I mean, after
> all those isles aren't what you would call adjacent provinces (well, at
> least not according to the rules). Anyways, I agree that the source could
> never exceed the magic potential - but that was never in question.
> However, I would consider both of the isle's terrain types as ancient
> forest. Am I right in this?

Perhaps. But I consider ancient forests places that have been around for several
millennium. With their proximity to the Straits, you'd have to assume those islands were
created in Diesmaar, two thousand years ago. Now factor in a few years for the trees and
stuff to get to the island. They are far from ancient when compared to those in
Llugabright or Coullabie.

>
>
> > Why not? I would limit the range of overseas holdings by, say, ten to twenty sea
> > areas. The reasoning for this is that the regent would need to transfer money and
> > workers by boat in several trips.
>
> What about creating holdings in landlocked realms? What would constitute,
> and I quote from the Rulebook, "an eligible province"?

*shrug*

>
>
> > I don't follow you here...
>
> In the Rulebook it says that you can create holdings in any eligible
> province. But what's an eligible province? It also states that creating
> a province that isn't adjacent to one of your own costs thrice as much.
> Now supposing that not-adjacent-thrice-as-much rule also applies to
> creating holdings,

Well according to the book, the non-adjacent-thrice-as-much rule applies only to creating
provinces. However, I do like the idea of the same being true for holdings.

> would the ruler of a coastal domain be able to create a
> holding in the midst of central Anuire just by paying thrice as much, for
> example?

Well, I'd just say it is up to the DM's reasoning. I'd put a limit on distance based on
the terrain between the domain's capital, the distance, available roads, and hostile
domains. Perhaps the 3x rule is similar to traveling with an entourage (sp?). Normally,
things are close enough that you can go with the basic, slow 1 GB entourage. But when
you get too far away you need to upgrade to the scout entourage (I guess get more mounts)
so you can cover that distance in the month allotted for your create holding action.

>
>
> > Yes it does. Normal is 1 GB, so an overseas or noadjacent province costs 3 GB.
> > The Base Cost for Create Holding is 1 GB. This applies to both forms (Create
> > Holding and Create Province). I would say that a scion doing create holding to
> > make a province would treat it as adjacent, and thus need 1 GB. On his next turn
> > he could rule it to level 1 (which costs no RP) then he'd start getting a regency
> > pool. Later he could create another province next to his current one for 1 GB or
> > one on a nearby island for 3 GB.
>
> So it's awfully cheap to create a province then, isn't it? Hey, it's just
> as easy as creating a holding.

Hey, it's a level (0) province. As a DM, I would require it removed of all hostile
inhabitants before the action took place. Then all you need to do is say "This stretch
of land is mine" and set up a little tax collection hut. Then a couple hundred people
move in (many of them are family members of the government officials assigned to the
province). And a level (0) guild is just a tiny shop (maybe one little blacksmith's
shop) that makes enough income to support itself but nothing more. When you go to rule
that guild, you'll just buy another blacksmith shop (coercing its owner with RR, which I
think is used in domain actions as kind of a Divine Aura charm effect) and set up a
little store.

> Then how come Caelcorwynn and Albiele
> haven't been colonized by now?

Like I said, there has to be a reason. Pirates? Goblins? Shadow World portal?
Awnsheglien? Why haven't Ayria, Binsada, or Aftane colonized the Isle of Ghosts? There
has to be something to keep them back.

> Oh, and as an aside, has it ever occured to anyone if you that the court
> wizard of Rhuannach (sp?) is called Caelcorwynn as well? I wonder if he's
> anything to do with that island of the same name...

Sounds like a plot.

>
>
> Also it reminds me of the fact that there's a male human bard in the
> Realms called Llewellynn, and a female human noble on the Spelljammer
> called Llewellynn as well, while on the Cerilian languages cardsheet in
> the Birthright box Llewellyn is listed as a name for females elves.
> Curiouser and curiouser... Consistency? We did away with that years
> ago... :)

Well it is 2 to 1 so I can assume the Llewellyn the bard has a girl's name. Heh. I have
a FR fanatic friend who I am constantly trying to argue over to likeing BR more.

[Olesens]

> > I would also point out that the only place where it says that ley lines
> > can be formed over oceans is in the Zweilund Island mage area of the
> > Havens expansion. IMC, I have ruled that this is because the Island Mage
> > has put in the research time to figure it out. If PC's want to do it, they
> > can either put in the time themselves or haul their butts over the
> > Brechtur and ask nicely.
>
> Nope, thrice nope, and yet another nope. The Book of Magecraft clearly
> states that ley lines can be forged across bodies of water, as long as it
> doesn't take you more than 150 miles to reach the opposite shore.

One idea I've always toyed with is some magical item that allowed Ley lines to
extend beyond that, maybe to 300 miles. Perhaps a Khinasi artifact that allowed
their wizards to create sources on the Golden Archipelago and back to Djapar.
Perhaps it is still in the Archipelago (after all, it'd have to be in the
middle).

Rjurik needs to find a friendly wizard (one who is very druid-like) who can make
ley lines from the Highlands to Thaele. There are so many possibilities for
such things.

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Tue, 16 Feb 1999, the Falcon wrote:

> Then again, to be honest, sometimes one or more of them suddenly spark an
> exceptionally bright idea, so it might be possible for them to get the
> hint. Heck, sometimes they come up with plans so intricate that I have to
> think quite more than twice before I can even start to think of something
> that might be a good response to it. Of course, I'm a very bad tactician
> and I suck greatly in the strategic department, but that as an aside.
> OK - so they might take the hint. But let's just assume they don't. Or
> come up with such a hideously devious plan that I can't even begin to
> fathom it. What then? Or in other words: are there any other options?
> Besides, the locals destroying source holdings? That would seem a little
> odd to me. Hell, they wouldn't even know the source holding was there.
> Unless they're all mighty wizards and such, but then they would have
> their own source holdings there.
> Mmm... Maybe I'm just makin this more dificult than it is...
> Your thoughts, anyways.

Well, there are less subtle ways of revealing the difficulties to your
PC's. For example, the wizard could show up to create his source holding,
and while he's wandering around looking for a good manifestation, he is
captured by the lost goblin tribe. Or he finds that the source holdings
are already all taken up by a previously unknown awnsheighlein. Or his
ship is crushed by a boulder dropped by a roc, who proceeds to eat most of
the crew, stranding the party on the island until they can work out a way
off of it. Heck, who ever said that adventure hooks had to be subtle? My
group sometimes calls it the "Great Iron Hook."

> > I would also point out that the only place where it says that ley lines
> > can be formed over oceans is in the Zweilund Island mage area of the
> > Havens expansion. IMC, I have ruled that this is because the Island Mage
> > has put in the research time to figure it out. If PC's want to do it, they
> > can either put in the time themselves or haul their butts over the
> > Brechtur and ask nicely.
>
> Nope, thrice nope, and yet another nope. The Book of Magecraft clearly
> states that ley lines can be forged across bodies of water, as long as it
> doesn't take you more than 150 miles to reach the opposite shore.

OK, I concede on this one. I get confused some times between actual cannon
rules and those that I have established by DM fiat. This particular one
probably comes from aquiring the Havens book before the BoM (which I
purchased much later than most people). Still, I think its a good rule,
and works well for me.

> > Perhaps the best thing is to say that they have to "tame" the land first
> > (i.e. make it into a province holding) which the wizard would own, if he
> > was the one who did the effort. It would be a province 0, but that would
> > suit most wizards fine. Perhaps he might even consider ruling it up to
> > raise some money, or offer it to his leige (assuming he has one) in return
> > for some other special favors.
>
> Mmm... Sounds like a good idea. But... "taming" the land to create a
> source holding? Why, that sounds an awful lot like reverse psychology to
> me...

OK, perhaps "tame" is a bad word. I mean something along the lines of
"make it your own." Internalized, a part of you, that sort of thing. Like
when you're away from home for a while, and you come back, and suddenly
you starting seeing things that are familiar, and you feel that you're
back in "your" territory. Sort of like forging an arcane connection with
the whole province. In my view of source holdings, I think that wizards
have to have an intimate association with the wilderness from which they
draw their power, they are familiar with the landscape, this large rock,
that forested glade, the bends and curves of the little streams, are all
internalized to form the connection between the wizard's bloodline and the
land of the province.

There, is that a better explanation?

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[the Falcon]

> To have a regent create a holding on a non-province is not something I would
> allow. I would make them create a province to establish a connection to the
> land in that area. If they don't create the province and put up a stink, the
> Wizard recieves no regency from the source. Regency is based on people, and no
> people mean no regency.

Well, I would whole-heartedly agree with you if it weren't for the fact
that we're talkin sources here. Sure, sources are holdings, but they sure
as hell don't represent any people. If so, then why on Cerilia would the
magic potential inversely correlate to the province rating? And if so,
there would be an awful lot more mages on the surface of Aebrynis. Only
source holdings of 7 or greater have some people tied to them - a guild
(0), probably consisting a small magicians' guild.

> As to ley lines and water, I tend to discourage wizards from using this. I
> give them a hefty penalty and require as many RPs to maintain as the source it
> is linked to. A level 3 source on Caelcorwyn means 3 RPs to maintain ley line.
> This is just a pesonal preferance, or else the gorgon could work an intricate
> system underwater to the Imperial city... I know many a rule abuser, so I
> always approach rules looking for ways to abuse them.

My idea of ley lines is that they always run over the surface of the land.
So if a wizard were to forge a ley line from the Erebannien to
Caelcorwynn, he would do so over the bottom of the ocean. (Of course, the
water does interfere with it, and this is why he can't go further than 150
miles into water with his ley line, as stated in the Book of Mages.) And
so if the Gorgon would want to work an intricate system underwater to the
Imperial City, he just wouldn't be able to do it. Of course, that doesn't
mean he can't quite more easily try to create an intricate system over
land...

- the Falcon

[the Falcon]

> Unfortuantly the rulebook states:
> Even wizards gain power from the respect of the masses. No masses, no power.

Untrue. Even wizard get power from the masses, sure - when they rule a
province or two. When they rule sources, they get their power from the
land. Besides, it doesn't say anywhere that respect equals regency or
power. In the end, doesn't every regent get his power from the land?
Commanding the masses is just one way to do that. Contacting the land
itself is another.

[the Falcon]

> Perhaps. But I consider ancient forests places that have been around for several
> millennium. With their proximity to the Straits, you'd have to assume those islands were
> created in Diesmaar, two thousand years ago. Now factor in a few years for the trees and
> stuff to get to the island. They are far from ancient when compared to those in
> Llugabright or Coullabie.

Point taken. Light forest then, with a magic potential of 7. Which is
pretty good anyways.

> Well according to the book, the non-adjacent-thrice-as-much rule applies only to creating
> provinces. However, I do like the idea of the same being true for holdings.

So do I. And it is what I intend to use IMC (didn't need to yet).

> Well, I'd just say it is up to the DM's reasoning. I'd put a limit on distance based on
> the terrain between the domain's capital, the distance, available roads, and hostile
> domains. Perhaps the 3x rule is similar to traveling with an entourage (sp?). Normally,
> things are close enough that you can go with the basic, slow 1 GB entourage. But when
> you get too far away you need to upgrade to the scout entourage (I guess get more mounts)
> so you can cover that distance in the month allotted for your create holding action.

Could you perhaps come up with an actual example of this? Or perhaps even
an exactual set of rules for this. I'd like to have a general concensus
on the matter, instead of wet-finger works.

> Hey, it's a level (0) province. As a DM, I would require it removed of all hostile
> inhabitants before the action took place. Then all you need to do is say "This stretch
> of land is mine" and set up a little tax collection hut. Then a couple hundred people
> move in (many of them are family members of the government officials assigned to the
> province). And a level (0) guild is just a tiny shop (maybe one little blacksmith's
> shop) that makes enough income to support itself but nothing more. When you go to rule
> that guild, you'll just buy another blacksmith shop (coercing its owner with RR, which I
> think is used in domain actions as kind of a Divine Aura charm effect) and set up a
> little store.

Interesting. I like your story.

> Like I said, there has to be a reason. Pirates? Goblins? Shadow World portal?
> Awnsheglien? Why haven't Ayria, Binsada, or Aftane colonized the Isle of Ghosts? There
> has to be something to keep them back.

Indeed. Coming up with a _good_ reason is difficult though. Anyone care
to help?

> > Oh, and as an aside, has it ever occured to anyone if you that the court
> > wizard of Rhuannach (sp?) is called Caelcorwynn as well? I wonder if he's
> > anything to do with that island of the same name...
>
> Sounds like a plot.

If so, I'll leave it to you. :)

> Well it is 2 to 1 so I can assume the Llewellyn the bard has a girl's name. Heh. I have
> a FR fanatic friend who I am constantly trying to argue over to likeing BR more.

What is there to argue? BR simply _is_ better. Hell, I didn't trade some
of my FR stuff for the BR basics for nothing. :)

- the Falcon


************************************************** *****************************
* *
* "You got a bullet in your head" -- Z. de la Rocha *
* *
************************************************** *****************************

[the Falcon]

> OK, perhaps "tame" is a bad word. I mean something along the lines of
> "make it your own." Internalized, a part of you, that sort of thing. Like
> when you're away from home for a while, and you come back, and suddenly
> you starting seeing things that are familiar, and you feel that you're
> back in "your" territory. Sort of like forging an arcane connection with
> the whole province. In my view of source holdings, I think that wizards
> have to have an intimate association with the wilderness from which they
> draw their power, they are familiar with the landscape, this large rock,
> that forested glade, the bends and curves of the little streams, are all
> internalized to form the connection between the wizard's bloodline and the
> land of the province.

But isn't that what creating a _source_ (0) is all about? I can't imagine
most regents would be very familiar with their level 0 provinces - one of
the main reasons those provinces are still level 0.

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Tue, 16 Feb 1999, the Falcon wrote:

> But isn't that what creating a _source_ (0) is all about? I can't imagine
> most regents would be very familiar with their level 0 provinces - one of
> the main reasons those provinces are still level 0.

Well, _province_ holders have it easy: they only have to be familiar with
the _inhabitants_ of their provinces, and then only the heirarchical
leaders of those provinces. Really more "what the people are like,"
"what their cultural idiosyncracies are," type of thing rather than
actually knowing names and birthdays, but enough to require spending a
significant amount of time in a month among them while when Creating a
province.

Oh, that might be another of my personal rules: when a regent is Creating
a holding or provence, he must physically be there to do it, or else it
requires a priestly Investiture before he can gain RP from it. I figure he
can make it "his" if he is actually there, otherwise it must be mystically
joined to him via the ceremony.

But yes, I think that familiarity with the holding type is important to
the whole process, whether its sources, temples, or provinces. In a sense,
I suppose you could liken it to the bond between a wizard and a familiar:
the regent becomes the familiar of the realm. However, the realm is
mindless, so does not dominate the regent.

However, I am realizing that much of this is coming from my own personal
view of how things work in Cerilia, so anyone should feel perfectly free
to ignore me.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Olesens]

the Falcon wrote:

>
>
> > Like I said, there has to be a reason. Pirates? Goblins? Shadow World portal?
> > Awnsheglien? Why haven't Ayria, Binsada, or Aftane colonized the Isle of Ghosts? There
> > has to be something to keep them back.
>
> Indeed. Coming up with a _good_ reason is difficult though. Anyone care
> to help?

Yeah, how about the Caelcorwynn - Caelcorwynn name similarity? Maybe our good wizard of
Rhuannach wanted to keep humans from despoiling the island (a favorite vacation sport of his?
burial site of some heroic elves? home to a hidden elven village). So he claimed it for
himself and set up several spells on the island. Not to mention a few magical defenders
(elementals?). The name he gave the island was totally unpronounceable to Anuireans so they
just called it Caelcorwynn. A little silly, but maybe it'll spark some ideas.

>
>
> > > Oh, and as an aside, has it ever occured to anyone if you that the court
> > > wizard of Rhuannach (sp?) is called Caelcorwynn as well? I wonder if he's
> > > anything to do with that island of the same name...
> >
> > Sounds like a plot.
>
> If so, I'll leave it to you. :)
>
> > Well it is 2 to 1 so I can assume the Llewellyn the bard has a girl's name. Heh. I have
> > a FR fanatic friend who I am constantly trying to argue over to likeing BR more.
>
> What is there to argue? BR simply _is_ better. Hell, I didn't trade some
> of my FR stuff for the BR basics for nothing. :)

I agree, but you'd be surprised at the anti-BR/pro-FR arguments/jokes he can come up with.
When comparing the FR wizards (who need a god to give them spells) to BR wizards (who draw
their power from the Meghable), he came up with "Mine the Meghable (sp?)" Where BR wizards
have to get lots of little unseen servants to dig up lots of Meghable in order to cast
Cantrip. THAT is really annoying.

>
>
> - the Falcon
>
> ************************************************** *****************************
> * *
> * "You got a bullet in your head" -- Z. de la Rocha *
> * *
> ************************************************** *****************************
>
> ************************************************** *************************
> >

[Pieter Sleijpen]

Olesens wrote:


> Like I said, there has to be a reason. Pirates? Goblins? Shadow World
> portal? Awnsheglien? Why haven't Ayria, Binsada, or Aftane colonized
> the Isle of Ghosts? There has to be something to keep them back.

Well, there are two large ruins on the Island (a map is included in the
Player Secrets of Ariya) and the name also suggests something...
Probably has something to do with the curse on the Masetian that led to
their downfall. Every wizard spell they cast led to an oppening to the
Shadow World through which many untold horros came forward.

Pieter Sleijpen