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Thread: elven victory?
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02-12-1999, 10:34 PM #1Kenneth GauckGuest
elven victory?
The rules do make this difficult to understand, but it is because they leave
out the effect of regular (non the battle spell) healing magic. If a domain
turn is one month, how many cure light wounds (and better), cure disease,
and so forth are being cast by even low level priests? To my mind alone
this is the margain of difference. Battle spells are dramatic, but pale in
comparison to the longer more comprehensive effect of regular magic
everyday, and here the priest has the advantage. The elven mages can only
cast their best spells during engagements, and they avoid some of the most
powerful spells listed because of the collateral distruction to the land.
Two second level priests with a 200 man formation can cast 120 cure lights
per month, compared to zero in an elven army, that is quite a difference.
It might mean that a human force could attack several times over while an
elven force grew progessivly weaker, even as it might "win" each engagement.
Combine this effect, where humans bounce back from injury as soon as the
priest gets to them, with the superior reproduction rate of humans, and it
becomes clear that humans would win the war.
Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net
- -----Original Message-----
From: Pieter A de Jong
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Re: [MBirthright] Re: Wardings
>Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
>>
>
>>
>> Which requires the same things. And only elves seems to have enough of
>> both. I have seen an elven nation destroy a human nation within two
>> actions. Makes me wonder how in hells name the elves were ever defeated!
>>
>> (Besides, any mage I currently DM on the PBEM is of high enough level to
>> cast the spell, has got enough sources to cast the thing and also the
>> backing of an army -that is Erik Danig, the Fae, Rhuobhe, Bacaele (he
>> will have it anyway)-. Seems not to be that rare, now does it?)
>>
>Thank you very much. You have confirmed my beliefs about how the humans
>won the elven-human wars. It is simply ridiculous that the humans would
>defeat the elven nations without direct divine intervention.
>--
>
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02-12-1999, 11:38 PM #2Pieter A de JongGuest
elven victory?
Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>
> The rules do make this difficult to understand, but it is because they leave
> out the effect of regular (non the battle spell) healing magic. If a domain
> turn is one month, how many cure light wounds (and better), cure disease,
> and so forth are being cast by even low level priests? To my mind alone
> this is the margain of difference. Battle spells are dramatic, but pale in
> comparison to the longer more comprehensive effect of regular magic
> everyday, and here the priest has the advantage. The elven mages can only
> cast their best spells during engagements, and they avoid some of the most
> powerful spells listed because of the collateral distruction to the land.
> Two second level priests with a 200 man formation can cast 120 cure lights
> per month, compared to zero in an elven army, that is quite a difference.
> It might mean that a human force could attack several times over while an
> elven force grew progessivly weaker, even as it might "win" each engagement.
> Combine this effect, where humans bounce back from injury as soon as the
> priest gets to them, with the superior reproduction rate of humans, and it
> becomes clear that humans would win the war.
>
> Kenneth Gauck
> c558382@earthlink.net
>
I have great difficulty with this thesis. There are mage spells that
are
very useful over long durations. Consider Armor, magic
mouth, continual light, wyvern watch, and when you get high level
conjured creatures.
Also, 80%+ of casualties are caused when one side of a battle breaks.
With
battle magic an elven force will almost alway rout the opposing force
intially. As they then hold the field, the human wounded, who can't
retreat
faster than elven forces can advance will be overrun. Given that I
can't
see the elven forces doing the POW thing, the clerics aren't ever going
to
reach the human wounded, as the human wounded are going to be dead.
The real reason why the elves shouldn't lose is immortality. Basically,
humans start to die off before reaching really high levels of
experience.
Therefore, elven mages are going to be much more skilled in general than
the human priests. It means that the cumulative impact of elven magic
will be much more destructive than the priests can handle.
- --
Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
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02-13-1999, 12:29 AM #3Pieter SleijpenGuest
elven victory?
How quick do units heal lost hits anyway?
Pieter Sleijpen
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02-13-1999, 07:36 AM #4Kenneth GauckGuest
elven victory?
The elves in the published materials don't appear to be all that high level.
Certainly not to overawe human priests.
Second, I would not expect elven armies to be routing the enemy. The last
battle I gamed out had the goblins (not the best war cards in the deck)
giving the elves a run for their money. I would expect they do as well as
anyone else.
Perhaps you are adding something to the game, which others are not which
results in your game having something other than the low-magic feel which is
pretty commonly mentioned on this list.
Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net
- -----Original Message-----
From: Pieter A de Jong
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Re: elven victory?
>I have great difficulty with this thesis. There are mage spells that
>are
>very useful over long durations. Consider Armor, magic
>mouth, continual light, wyvern watch, and when you get high level
>conjured creatures.
>
>Also, 80%+ of casualties are caused when one side of a battle breaks.
>With
>battle magic an elven force will almost alway rout the opposing force
>intially. As they then hold the field, the human wounded, who can't
>retreat
>faster than elven forces can advance will be overrun. Given that I
>can't
>see the elven forces doing the POW thing, the clerics aren't ever going
>to
>reach the human wounded, as the human wounded are going to be dead.
>
>The real reason why the elves shouldn't lose is immortality. Basically,
>humans start to die off before reaching really high levels of
>experience.
>Therefore, elven mages are going to be much more skilled in general than
>the human priests. It means that the cumulative impact of elven magic
>will be much more destructive than the priests can handle.
>
>
>--
>
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02-13-1999, 08:02 AM #5Kenneth GauckGuest
elven victory?
- -----Original Message-----
From: Pieter Sleijpen
Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 6:41 PM
>How quick do units heal lost hits anyway?
>
>Pieter Sleijpen
I assume each hit represents 10% of the unit killed and another 10-20%
injured. The only way to actually destroy a unit is in after battle combat
(pursuit). Most of the damage of a hit is to morale. The morale system in
the game represents whether a unit will stay and fight or rally. The moral
represented in the number of hits reflects how well they fight. Units can
go over to the defensive and do no damage to the enemy, afraid to take more
damage. This is the cause of lower combat effectiveness after a hit is
taken, even though only 10% of the unit is killed.
So if a unit takes a hit, after the battle I assume it is back up to full
strength in effectivness, and not it remains at 90% in terms of numbers.
Once a units falls to 70% after a combat, it now fights as though one hit
were permenantly removed. 40%, two hits. So a hit represents 20-40 men who
lost some hp's, and I assume every unit has about two second level priests
(all faiths in Cerilia have at least minor access to Healing). This would
require 5-10 days of casting to get them back up to speed.
These are my standard assumptions. Units accompanied by higher level
priests, or that include paladins with the ability to lay on hands, or the
characters with the blood ability to heal are just sauce.
Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net
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02-13-1999, 08:51 AM #6Jim CooperGuest
elven victory?
Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> Two second level priests with a 200 man formation can cast 120 cure lights per month<
This is what I'm talking about keeping BR low magic. My characters
would kill for their Power to give them even one cure light wounds
spell. The Cerilian gods have much more important things to consider
than listening to the incessant begging from the many priests that
worship them, constantly barraging them with "Can I have this," "Can I
have that". Haelyn, for instance, wouldn't be giving out near 120 cure
lights per month to his entire 'realm' of worshippers, even when he is
feeling generous. Perhaps a dozen of his favourite priests throughout
the breadth of Cerilia (or even Aebrynis) would get, perhaps, 1 or 2
curative spells in a month. Period.
Now my players respect the fact that they are so favoured as to receive
*any* spell a Power grants them, that it truly is a boon to have this
Power's attention.
Then again, I haven't made a god(dess)'s power dependant on the number
of worshippers they have (which I have always thought pretty silly, buy
hey, that's just me!), so this obviously changes a Power's worldview.
:D
Cheers,
Darren
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02-13-1999, 08:54 AM #7Jim CooperGuest
elven victory?
Pieter A de Jong wrote:
> The real reason why the elves shouldn't lose is immortality. Basically, humans start to die off before reaching really high levels of
> experience. Therefore, elven mages are going to be much more skilled in general than the human priests. It means that the cumulative impact of elven magic will be much more destructive than the priests can handle.<
I would favour this view. Unfortunately, there are many more humans in
BR that are above 9th level than any other race.
AND, why the heck are goblins and orogs always portrayed as weak?!? Let
me see, I thing the King of Thurazor is the highest humanoid at 7th
level ... I could be mistaken, but ... that's how I think all the other
races should be treated in comparison to the elves (elves much higher
than any other NPC, depending on the elf's age of course).
Cheers,
Darren
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02-13-1999, 09:09 AM #8Jim CooperGuest
elven victory?
Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> Second, I would not expect elven armies to be routing the enemy. The last battle I gamed out had the goblins (not the best war cards in the deck) giving the elves a run for their money. I would expect they do as well as anyone else.<
Heh. This reminds me of a fond little experience with the BR warcard
rules IMC.
I once had a mere *2* Anuirean LEVY units ROUT and DESTROY a unit of
Knights of Haelyn. Boy was that hilarious! (Every -3 column for the
levvies was a H result, and the Knights at the +3 column only ever got 1
H result, the rest were "-"!!!).
Woo Hoo!
Its possible boys and girls! :) More power to the commoners! ;)
Cheers,
Darren
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02-13-1999, 09:17 AM #9TriztGuest
elven victory?
Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> The rules do make this difficult to understand, but it is because they leave
> out the effect of regular (non the battle spell) healing magic. If a domain
> turn is one month, how many cure light wounds (and better), cure disease,
> and so forth are being cast by even low level priests?
The number is quite limited of those preists who can cast spells.
> Two second level priests with a 200 man formation can cast 120 cure lights
> per month, compared to zero in an elven army, that is quite a difference.
The elven army can use herbs. Don't forget that two elven arrows may end
those two priests.
> It might mean that a human force could attack several times over while an
> elven force grew progessivly weaker, even as it might "win" each engagement.
The elves would use the night to attack humans, as they can see while
the humans would be blind.
> with the superior reproduction rate of humans, and it
> becomes clear that humans would win the war.
Elves could increase their speed of reproduction by increasing the
number of halfelves, but the new elves from matings of half-elves and
elves would be somewhat different from the original elves (and I don't
think they would sink that low that they would mate with humans in large
numbers in the first place). Don't forget that most sulvan (spl?)
creatures are allied with the elves, and some of them have great powers.
//Trizt
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02-13-1999, 10:58 AM #10Pieter SleijpenGuest
elven victory?
Jim Cooper wrote:
>
> Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> > Second, I would not expect elven armies to be routing the enemy. The last battle I gamed out had the goblins (not the best war cards in the deck) giving the elves a run for their money. I would expect they do as well as anyone else.<
>
> Heh. This reminds me of a fond little experience with the BR warcard
> rules IMC.
>
> I once had a mere *2* Anuirean LEVY units ROUT and DESTROY a unit of
> Knights of Haelyn. Boy was that hilarious! (Every -3 column for the
> levvies was a H result, and the Knights at the +3 column only ever got 1
> H result, the rest were "-"!!!).
Oh, I once nearly obliterated 8 gnoll infantry with 5 levies, 1 archer
and 1 adventurer. Exactly for the same reason and when the levies are
only hit by the H results, they can fight for a long time.
Pieter
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