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  1. #1
    Pieter Sleijpen
    Guest

    Dispel Realm Magic and Warding

    Actually, as Kenneth pointed out, the ward spell is centered on the
    border of the affected provinces. So, a person might reason that you are
    not casting the dispel at the neighboor. The weakening that Kenneth
    suggested, might mean that anyone could try to enter the warded province
    with a 50% chance of success. With only 1 try per season, i.e. turn.
    Though I prefer the complete dispel of the ward on one province (so not
    all the warded provinces in the same spell).

    Personally I find the ward spell unbalancing. The costs might be high
    and hence generaly unavailable to wizards without propper back-up. But
    every wizard should be able to get their hands on the gold and regency
    needed to cast the spell. The duration is also quite long, esspecially
    since it will be the powerful wizards who cast the spell in the first
    place. Not to mention the irritation as a landed guilder with a hatred
    for wizard not being able to do a thing, because about every enemy realm
    is warded. And the simple fact, that the priests are described as
    powerful as wizards or maybe even more powerful. Why else don't the
    elves simple ward their realms and do whatever they please? Besides,
    even a dispel realm magic can be easily countered with spending RP. It
    will be a conscious choice of both casters to either let the ward being
    dispelled or not.

    As for income, that should not be that difficult for a wizard. To
    operate within a domain they need the backing up of at least 1 landed
    regent anyway and these should be willing to spend quite an amount of
    money on the wizards. Battlespells and realm spells as scry, mass
    destruction and subversion are scarry enough.

    By the way, how many units could a caster lead through the ward? Could
    the caster lead complete armies through or might you rule that only
    small groups are allowed to enter? This last limit, might also be a rule
    to counter balance the power of the spell. Because I have the spell seen
    used as an attack, by warding the provinces of an enemy and then invade
    them. The enemy had no ability at all to react. They did not know what
    happened and could not send reinforcements or even allow troops to be
    mustered.

    Pieter Sleijpen

    P.S. yes, Memnoch, I know that would limit the usefulness of the spell.
    But i honestly think that the way you used it, is unbalancing and unfair
    to the NPC's who were victimized by it. Just ask yourself, how you would
    find it, if the Gorgon used that tactic against you. And you have at
    least a 50% chance to get into the warded area and then you can start a
    rp bidding war against the Gorgon.

  2. #2
    Kenneth Gauck
    Guest

    Dispel Realm Magic and Warding

    - -----Original Message-----
    From: Pieter Sleijpen
    Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 9:00 PM
    >
    >By the way, how many units could a caster lead through the ward? Could
    >the caster lead complete armies through or might you rule that only
    >small groups are allowed to enter?

    The rules specifically say the caster can lead individuals. While a unit is
    made up of individuals, the fact that the rules did not specify units should
    give us pause. Even one unit (while not unbalancing) stretches credulity to
    imagine 200 people following a wizard through impenitable mists and fogs. I
    would imagine once men toward the back of the group lost site of the wizard,
    they would wander off and become seperated from the group. The spell
    specifically implies that you must follow the caster and not just the guy in
    front of you, because the of the mention that priests and wizards have a 50%
    of leading only 1 person per level. Sounds to me like you can't see you
    hand in front of you face, and its the caster or nothing.

    As a side note, it must be syncronicity that I posted a piece on the
    wilderness in medieval literature earlier today on the main BR list. Even
    people who know where they are going seem to get lost an awful lot in the
    literature.

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@earthlink.net

  3. #3
    Memnoch
    Guest

    Dispel Realm Magic and Warding

    - -----Original Message-----
    From: Pieter Sleijpen
    To: birthright@MPGN.COM
    Cc: gmwhennightfalls@egroups.com ;
    mbirthrigh@egroups.com
    Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 8:55 PM
    Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Dispel Realm Magic and Warding spell


    |Actually, as Kenneth pointed out, the ward spell is centered on the
    |border of the affected provinces. So, a person might reason that you are
    |not casting the dispel at the neighboor. The weakening that Kenneth
    |suggested, might mean that anyone could try to enter the warded province
    |with a 50% chance of success. With only 1 try per season, i.e. turn.
    |Though I prefer the complete dispel of the ward on one province (so not
    |all the warded provinces in the same spell).
    |
    |Personally I find the ward spell unbalancing. The costs might be high
    |and hence generaly unavailable to wizards without propper back-up. But
    |every wizard should be able to get their hands on the gold and regency
    |needed to cast the spell. The duration is also quite long, esspecially
    |since it will be the powerful wizards who cast the spell in the first
    |place. Not to mention the irritation as a landed guilder with a hatred
    |for wizard not being able to do a thing, because about every enemy realm
    |is warded. And the simple fact, that the priests are described as
    |powerful as wizards or maybe even more powerful. Why else don't the
    |elves simple ward their realms and do whatever they please? Besides,
    |even a dispel realm magic can be easily countered with spending RP. It
    |will be a conscious choice of both casters to either let the ward being
    |dispelled or not.
    |
    |As for income, that should not be that difficult for a wizard. To
    |operate within a domain they need the backing up of at least 1 landed
    |regent anyway and these should be willing to spend quite an amount of
    |money on the wizards. Battlespells and realm spells as scry, mass
    |destruction and subversion are scarry enough.
    |
    |By the way, how many units could a caster lead through the ward? Could
    |the caster lead complete armies through or might you rule that only
    |small groups are allowed to enter? This last limit, might also be a rule
    |to counter balance the power of the spell. Because I have the spell seen
    |used as an attack, by warding the provinces of an enemy and then invade
    |them. The enemy had no ability at all to react. They did not know what
    |happened and could not send reinforcements or even allow troops to be
    |mustered.
    |
    |Pieter Sleijpen
    |
    |P.S. yes, Memnoch, I know that would limit the usefulness of the spell.
    |But i honestly think that the way you used it, is unbalancing and unfair
    |to the NPC's who were victimized by it. Just ask yourself, how you would
    |find it, if the Gorgon used that tactic against you. And you have at
    |least a 50% chance to get into the warded area and then you can start a
    |rp bidding war against the Gorgon.


    Actually, I wouldn't begrudge them the use of this spell in this manner.
    And in previous PBEM's, they have been used against me in this way, and I
    never bitched about them one. Ask Muaa about Richard Diem in Ldivane's PBEM
    game.
    I have, however, developed couters to the Warding Realm spell. That is what
    Spell research is all about.
    It is my general philosophy that if you use a particular tactic a particular
    way, then your opponents, being intelligent individuals would naturally
    develop counters to the obvious. I always develop counters to my own
    methods so as to be able to switch them midstride should things not go my
    way.

    That, my friends, is the Art of War

    Memnoch

  4. #4
    Pieter Sleijpen
    Guest

    Dispel Realm Magic and Warding

    One of the things I liked about BR was the low magic feel of this game.
    Now that I DM in a PBEM I suddenly find out that the idea of low magic
    is nonsense. Every realm needs a wizard to survive and wizards are at
    every battle all over the world.

    ::Sigh::

    Pieter Sleijpen

  5. #5
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    Dispel Realm Magic and Warding

    Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
    >
    > One of the things I liked about BR was the low magic feel of this game.
    > Now that I DM in a PBEM I suddenly find out that the idea of low magic
    > is nonsense. Every realm needs a wizard to survive and wizards are at
    > every battle all over the world.
    >
    I will comment that a number of folks feel that Birthright has a "low
    magic feel". I disagree. Although there is less magic running around
    loose than in the Forgotten Realms and Planescape settings, I find quite
    a lot of magic. Most pc's have some magical abilities (Blood Powers),
    the mages and priests have the most powerful spells ever published for
    AD&D available to them (Realm Spells). Finally, if you look at the
    equipment shown for various NPC's, there is a lot of magic available
    (eg. Guilder Kalien, ?Shaemes Lavelier? > the ranger with the +5 Spear
    and Boots of Speed at 5th level).

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

  6. #6
    Kenneth Gauck
    Guest

    Dispel Realm Magic and Warding

    - -----Original Message-----
    From: Pieter Sleijpen
    Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 6:09 AM
    >
    >One of the things I liked about BR was the low magic feel of this game.
    >Now that I DM in a PBEM I suddenly find out that the idea of low magic
    >is nonsense. Every realm needs a wizard to survive and wizards are at
    >every battle all over the world.
    >
    >::Sigh::
    >
    >Pieter Sleijpen

    I think the problem is rooted in this way:
    Each regent is by himself an exceptional character, bonus magic items in a
    low magic world, bonus hp's, blood abilities, and the realm actions be they
    spells, muster, or what have you. When a bunch of them begin to act upon
    the exact same problems, or for the exact same goals, their cumulative power
    becomes overwhelming.

    It is for this reason that I am so fond of obstacles, which tend to draw
    collections of powerful regents back into their own sphere and away from too
    much cooperation. Random events are OK, but by their random nature are
    easily solved. You say there is a rockslide? Clear the road-- problem
    solved. But if problems are made systemic, requiring lots of attention,
    over the course of many turns, the cooperation is limited and cannot be
    sustained, allowing the counter blow to fall. After all, every action
    should have an equal and opposite reaction. Heroism is the overcomming of
    obstacles, not just assembling a vast horde over a weekend.

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@earthlink.net

  7. #7
    Kenneth Gauck
    Guest

    Dispel Realm Magic and Warding

    Concentrating on the elite characters (anyone blooded) is like looking at
    the richest 1% of the population and suggesting 1) the standard of living
    sure is high, and 2) there is no hint of poverty. Most likely you are
    looking at the vast majority of all the magic in the campaign world.

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@earthlink.net

    - -----Original Message-----
    From: Pieter A de Jong
    To: birthright@MPGN.COM
    Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 10:58 AM
    Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Dispel Realm Magic and Warding spell


    >Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
    >>
    >> One of the things I liked about BR was the low magic feel of this game.
    >> Now that I DM in a PBEM I suddenly find out that the idea of low magic
    >> is nonsense. Every realm needs a wizard to survive and wizards are at
    >> every battle all over the world.
    >>
    >I will comment that a number of folks feel that Birthright has a "low
    >magic feel". I disagree. Although there is less magic running around
    >loose than in the Forgotten Realms and Planescape settings, I find quite
    >a lot of magic. Most pc's have some magical abilities (Blood Powers),
    >the mages and priests have the most powerful spells ever published for
    >AD&D available to them (Realm Spells). Finally, if you look at the
    >equipment shown for various NPC's, there is a lot of magic available
    >(eg. Guilder Kalien, ?Shaemes Lavelier? > the ranger with the +5 Spear
    >and Boots of Speed at 5th level).
    >

  8. #8
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    Dispel Realm Magic and Warding

    Kenneth Gauck wrote:
    >
    > Concentrating on the elite characters (anyone blooded) is like looking at
    > the richest 1% of the population and suggesting 1) the standard of living
    > sure is high, and 2) there is no hint of poverty. Most likely you are
    > looking at the vast majority of all the magic in the campaign world.
    >
    > Kenneth Gauck
    > c558382@earthlink.net
    >
    >
    This isn't really the point. How many unblooded PC's do you have in
    your
    campaign? For balance, your antagonists must also be similarly equipped
    with magic, at least when you consider leader types.
    - --

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

  9. #9
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    Dispel Realm Magic and Warding

    Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
    > One of the things I liked about BR was the low magic feel of this game. Now that I DM in a PBEM I suddenly find out that the idea of low magic is nonsense. Every realm needs a wizard to survive and wizards are at every battle all over the world.<

    I would caution people not to get hooked into that trap. You, as the DM
    MUST strictly enforce the low magic feel of BR, or else it will fall
    into another version of FR. If I have a PC wizard, I make them work
    like dogs to get anywhere in their profession - only give them 1 realm
    spell and 1 battle spell to start, and no more, *only if they are
    regents; make them research whatever else they want cause thats why the
    action is there. And make it expensive! I usually make the cost around
    1 GB per *level* of spell to research battle/realm spells, and that is
    only a 10+ success roll too. For NPC wizards, never sell their
    abilities short! They have a commodity/tool available that every regent
    wants, so don't just hand over their services easily! I don't think
    I've had one wizard regent friendly to any of my PC players, for the
    express reason that these wizards don't come cheap and my PCs are never
    willing to fork over the necessary cash/favours/information required!

    For priests, the same deal. Moreover, don't just allow priests to cast
    spells like wizards - they just can't snap their fingers and poof a
    spell is cast - I make my PC PRAY for their spells - if I don't like
    what they say, or if I don't think its said with conviction or feeling,
    then their Power doesn't respond! They have to explain to their Power
    (me) exactly why they need this spell or no spell for you cowboy!

    Moreover, non-spell casting NPC regents never cuddle up to my PC
    spell-casters, no! IMO, the majority of people fear more than they
    respect Cerilian spellcasters, because they have a power most people
    don't understand. Spell casters are as much a liability as a benefit,
    especially for regents, and spellcasters are treated as such IMC.
    Spellcasters must *prove* their loyalty to non-spellcasting regents
    before they even begin to be trusted by the non-spellcasters. And thats
    the crux of the situation - each doesn't really trust the other, but
    neither side is willing to move an inch until the other side does so
    first.

    Needless to say, this adds an element of tension that keeps everyone
    antsy, but which only helps to limit the use of magic in BR. Magic
    should be a rare and wonderous thing, or conversely a perverse and
    fearful danger (depending on whether your on the receiving or dealing
    end), and that is how I treat it in my games.

    Never again, never BR, never magic no more forever! Keep the Realms
    Forgotten!!!!

    :)

    Cheers,
    Darren

  10. #10
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    Dispel Realm Magic and Warding

    Pieter A de Jong wrote:
    > I will comment that a number of folks feel that Birthright has a "low
    > magic feel". I disagree. <

    And I agree with this Pieter here - not only in magic, but in LEVELS!!!
    I never would have made, for instance, the Chamberlain such a studly
    man. :) At most, maybe 5th level ... Everybody and his dog that is
    important is WAY up there in levels. This is too bad, since the NPCs I
    feel have the most potential and the best role-playing opportunities are
    the lower level regents like Count Aglondier or Vamuel in Mieres.

    Moreover, if would have been really awesome if the designers had shown
    us that not everbody had to be blooded - I don't see why, say, a butler
    couldn't have been in charge of a realm until the ward could have come
    to age to rule his or her realm. Oh, the role-playing possibilities!!!
    So, it makes it more difficult to rule, but so what? Its cool when the
    designers show that its not all about power gaming! What are we playing
    the game for, anyway? -> To overcome obstacles and challenges to our
    rule and prove that we truly deserve to be named Hero-Kings! Ruling is
    never easy!

    Cheers,
    Darren

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