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  1. #1
    David Sean Brown
    Guest

    This brings up another question

    > In your opinion, who do you think commands more respect in Vos society -
    > the clan leader (warriors), or a priest(s) of Belinik (regardless of
    > whether or not said priests can actually cast spells)?
    >
    I think you need to decide exactly what you mean...respect for deed and
    might, of respect from fear...while both clan leaders and priests of
    belenik command respect for both reasons, I think the general populace of
    the Vos society respects their Tsaveros more out of respect for their
    deeds, while preiests command respect out of fear. Vos are a tough brutal
    peoples, and from what I've seen, the priests seem to be the most brutal
    of all...and have the backing of the church across the whole region to
    back them up..they got their position through the favor of Belenik (and
    some classy assasinations no doubt) while the wariors had to do it the
    hard way..stepping on the throats of their enemies (and a few friends) to
    gain any position they achieve....just a few thoughts anyway..

    Sean

  2. #2
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    This brings up another question

    David Sean Brown wrote:
    > I think you need to decide exactly what you mean...respect for deed and might, of respect from fear...while both clan leaders and priests of
    > belenik command respect for both reasons, I think the general populace of the Vos society respects their Tsaveros more out of respect for their
    > deeds, while preiests command respect out of fear.<

    Mmmm, very good point. I think, though, that I just want a first
    impression, more of a 'on the spot' impression.

    Basically, given no prior knowledge of either individual, irregardless
    of their individual achievements and merits, who would a commoner side
    with - the warrior or the priest, when one is arguing with the other?
    Warrior is the obvious favourite class of Vos society, but who would a
    Vos person listen to first, if they just one day happened upon a priest
    and a warrior arguing on the road, so to speak? Their leader or their
    priest?

    Basically, in Vos society I think one earns respect for deeds and might
    BECAUSE of the fear of the brutally of their leader's actions. This is
    why I currently favour the position that Belinik priests would instantly
    garner respect, on first impression, whereas other 'mundanes' must earn
    it in a Vos persons' eyes first, relatively speaking ... Granted, I
    don't see priests of Belinik actually doing a lot of great and mighty
    deeds, but their feriocity, brutality, and foam at the mouth more than
    makes up for the actual (lack of) deeds in comparison to a warrior who
    is (relatively) more capable of actually doing great deeds and such (in
    game terms). I don't think that last part came out just right, but ...
    well, thats the best I can do this late!

    Hope that helps ...

    Cheers,
    Darren

  3. #3

    This brings up another question

    The ever dubious Canuck known mostly as 'Jim Cooper' , who might actually tell us all who 'Jim' really is one day, wrote:

    [sniperooskie!]

    > who would a commoner side
    > with - the warrior or the priest, when one is arguing with the other?

    AKKKK!!! I'd hate to be this unlucky Vos!!!! Man what a fix! Obey the warrior and live to tell another Brecht slaying tale, there by risking the
    wrath of Belenik and the church of Vosgaard. Or listen to the priest, receive much praise and favour from the church, only to have your head lopped
    of for bruising the ego/honour of the warrior..... man.... what a good time for a goblin invasion.

    > Warrior is the obvious favourite class of Vos society, but who would a
    > Vos person listen to first, if they just one day happened upon a priest
    > and a warrior arguing on the road, so to speak? Their leader or their
    > priest?

    I think most Vos fancy themselves skilled warriors, and so while they may have a personal 'respect' for the warrior in question, I think most Vos
    would feel that they could at least defend themselves (and possibly die honourably at the hands of a greater warrior) from him. While a priest
    wields great, powerful and mysterious magics. How to defend yourself from the wrath of a God? You can't, no matter how sharp your war spear is.

    You can always stab the warrior dead (if only by luck), but slight the priest, and your soul will be Azrai fodder!

    > Basically, in Vos society I think one earns respect for deeds and might
    > BECAUSE of the fear of the brutally of their leader's actions. This is
    > why I currently favour the position that Belinik priests would instantly
    > garner respect, on first impression, whereas other 'mundanes' must earn
    > it in a Vos persons' eyes first, relatively speaking ... Granted, I
    > don't see priests of Belinik actually doing a lot of great and mighty
    > deeds, but their feriocity, brutality, and foam at the mouth more than
    > makes up for the actual (lack of) deeds in comparison to a warrior who
    > is (relatively) more capable of actually doing great deeds and such (in
    > game terms). I don't think that last part came out just right, but ...
    > well, thats the best I can do this late!

    I agree with much of what you have said here big D! I do not think the priest would earn instant respect though. The fighter would I think (even
    more so since he has the nerve, or stupidity depending on your PoV), as he is something most Vos can relate to on a personal level. The priest would
    receive instant obedience I think, but not necessarily respect. The Vos in question could probably care less about the priest as a person, but since
    he has the power of a God behind him, this is what drives the average man to obedience.

    I have always thought fear was a natural form/condition of respect, but as I think on this, it seems to me that there is a distinct difference
    between the two. You can fear the priest for what the God will do to you, but still, you need not respect the priest at all. I think of Judge
    Frollo (sp?) in the Notre Dame story (I'm speaking of the animated Disney one here, having just watched it with my kids this morning....) :0
    Frollo would be a fine example of a priest who has power & authority like a Belenik priest might, but do you actually respect him?? No. You do fear
    him though, and obey him because of this fear. The good Captain though, you respect, because of what he stands for, for what he has accomplished.

    Anyway, that's the way I see it.

    Morg (the 'can I graduate to senior vice president of the Arinienbae Canuck mad man club yet Darren???')

    - --
    "I hate it when my brain stem hurts."
    The New Draftmine Repository:
    http://members.home.net/morgramen/index.html

  4. #4
    Kenneth Gauck
    Guest

    This brings up another question

    Without claiming any views on the Vos per se, I think it is always more
    interesting (and dramatic) if the views of the people are always divided on
    who deserves the greater respect. For that reason I would say some would
    immediatly tend toward the priestly, and others the warriors, and that for
    one to predominate they're message must conform with the needs and goals of
    the community.

    The more complex the society, the more loyalties should be divided between
    local and realm authority, the holder of the land, the law, the guilds, the
    temples, even for some the sources, and possibly other instituitions as
    well.

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@earthlink.net

  5. #5
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    This brings up another question

    My Faithful War Comrade wrote:
    > The ever dubious Canuck known mostly as 'Jim Cooper' , who might actually tell us all who 'Jim' really is one day<

    Mwuhahaaaa!!! No one will EVER know! HAHAHA!!! Never! NEVER!!! :D

    > I agree with much of what you have said here big D! I do not think the priest would earn instant respect though. The fighter would I think (even more so since he has the nerve, or stupidity depending on your PoV), as he is something most Vos can relate to on a personal level. The priest would receive instant obedience I think, but not necessarily respect. The Vos in question could probably care less about the priest as a person, but since he has the power of a God behind him, this is what drives the average man to obedience.<

    This is very true - I stand corrected. Thanks, Keith! :) Good example
    too (but, I hated that Disney movie - not at ALL like the book, and
    totally like as IF anyone would act the way those characters did!)

    > Morg (the 'can I graduate to senior vice president of the Arinienbae Canuck mad man club yet Darren???')<

    Weeelllll ... that depends. You see, being as I'm on this side of the
    continent, and being that Victoria is *right* on the water here - and
    being that WotC HQ is in territory what we Canuck clubbers ought to have
    as our rightful claim (those damn Yankees SO tricked us into giving them
    dat dere Oregon territory, when everyone knows its belonged to us!) -
    we first must establish who has supremacy in this little part of the
    world. Now, since WotC hasn't coughed up even ONE measly little iota of
    information on whether or not BR will ever see the light of day again,
    this gives us the perfect reason to storm their little piddely gaming
    fort down there in Rent'n Warshington. Don't ya agreee mon ami?!? So,
    first ya have to be willing to cause death, pillage, and mayhem.

    'Course, the second part requires that ya be not right in the head -
    which is tougher than it looks :D - but then again, being as how you've
    already agreed ta be my apprentice, this shows ya have promise! :D

    Lastly, ya have to worship Da MAN, Mr. Tim Nutting! :) (He has
    honorary membership in our little Canuck fan club - which means he gets
    first dibs on all da girls we capture down dere in Warshington ---
    , so wez kinda have to be nice ta him).

    P.S Lastly - youse also must erect a shrine to Ms. Bebris, being as I
    made a promise to worship her too! Verily, making a webpage devoted to
    her would even be better, so if you can do that, then you can forget
    everything I just said and skip right to being VP guy! ;)

    (Don't forget to put my name up on there somewhere!)

    :D

    (Okay, okay, its 3 in the morning! Give me a break!) :D

    Cheers,
    Darren

  6. #6
    Kenneth Gauck
    Guest

    This brings up another question

    Fourty-Four Fourty or Fight!

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@earthlink.net


    - -----Original Message-----
    From: Jim Cooper
    To: birthright@MPGN.COM
    Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 5:11 AM
    Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - This brings up another question ...

    >those damn Yankees SO tricked us into giving them
    >dat dere Oregon territory, when everyone knows its belonged to us!) -

  7. #7
    Mark A Vandermeulen
    Guest

    This brings up another question

    On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Jim Cooper wrote:

    > Mmmm, very good point. I think, though, that I just want a first
    > impression, more of a 'on the spot' impression.
    >
    > Basically, given no prior knowledge of either individual, irregardless
    > of their individual achievements and merits, who would a commoner side
    > with - the warrior or the priest, when one is arguing with the other?
    > Warrior is the obvious favourite class of Vos society, but who would a
    > Vos person listen to first, if they just one day happened upon a priest
    > and a warrior arguing on the road, so to speak? Their leader or their
    > priest?

    Actually, the way I see it, the Priests of Belenik are in a somewhat
    interesting bind. The rules of Belenik's priesthood are such that, if you
    DO get into an argument with the local Tsarevo, and he gets mad and chops
    off your head for crossing him, then that's his right. If you were weak
    enough to get your head lopped off in a fight with a stinkin Tsarevo, then
    you don't DESERVE to be Belenik's Priest. If a commoner came up a hill to
    a Tsarevo arguing with a Priest he would side with whoever was left
    breathing once the argument was over. The commoner would not intervene, in
    fact I think both parties would be very angry with the commoner if he DID
    intervene, and thus preventing their god-granted right to prove their
    inherent superiority on the body of their detractor.

    I think the Tsarevos are the cultural leaders of the Vos, and the priests
    of Belenik, if they believe it necessary to oppose their Tsarevo, must
    either work together to provide enough overwhelming force that they cow
    the Tsarevo into submission (probably pretty rare to get enough priests of
    Belenik to agree to anything of the sort--only very important reasons
    would be a sufficient motivation) or to work around the Tsarevo,
    influencing his fighters against him, provoking duels among his
    supporters, and generally leading a ground-swell of grass-roots support
    against the Tsarevo. I think this second option is the one generally used,
    and interestingly makes the Priests of Belenik into one of the most feared
    opponents in Cerilia, for it makes them not only strong and brutal and
    fearless, but also incredibly cunning.

    Or at least that's my view of the Vos.

    Mark VanderMeulen
    vander+@pitt.edu

  8. #8
    Mark A Vandermeulen
    Guest

    This brings up another question

    Oh, and another thought along these lines,

    I think it's perfectly acceptable for a Tsarevo to challenge a priest to a
    duel, and perfectly acceptable for a priest to challenge a Tsarevo to a
    duel. However, there's some strategy involved as well. Perhaps I should
    say "provoke" a duel rather than challenge. If a priest can prepair
    himself, cast protection spells and such about him, and THEN go into the
    presence of the Tsarevo and provoke a challenge, then he can fight the
    Tsarevo with the advantage of magick on his side. If the Tsarevo provokes
    a challenge from the priest, then he can fight right away before the
    priest has time to cast his magick. However, if the priest outright
    challenges the Tsarevo, then as the challenged the Tsarevo can pick the
    time of the fight, and thus can buy himself time to get his own priest to
    cast protection spells on him to help even the stakes.

    Mark

  9. #9
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    This brings up another question

    > Basically, given no prior knowledge of either individual, irregardless
    > of their individual achievements and merits, who would a commoner side
    > with - the warrior or the priest, when one is arguing with the other?
    > Warrior is the obvious favourite class of Vos society, but who would a
    > Vos person listen to first, if they just one day happened upon a priest
    > and a warrior arguing on the road, so to speak? Their leader or their
    > priest?

    Somehow, a warrior "they just one day happened upon" and "their leader"
    just don't sound quite the same... If they'd just happened upon some
    warrior, it seems to me they would side with the priest. Otherwise, my
    best bet would be on their leader. After all, he is their _leader_...

    Just a few words...

    - the Falcon

  10. #10
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    This brings up another question

    Kenneth Gauck wrote:
    > Fourty-Four Fourty or Fight!<

    Heh. Tell me about it! :)

    The sad part is - we gave up without a fight! DAMN!!! Gah! After
    Frontenac gave youse Amerikans such a whuppin', you'd think we at least
    woulda had a brawl or two across the '44!

    :D

    Foaming at the mouth,
    Dmitri the Destroyer (Biting the shaft of my battle-axe!!!!! Grrrrr)

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