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Thread: The Future of the Multiverse
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01-26-1999, 08:50 PM #1OlesensGuest
The Future of the Multiverse
OK, this is has been discussed before, but it produced some really interesting
discussions from one little post (anyone remember "Cerilia in 600 years"?). I
though that discussing it again would be interesting, and I'm sure there are a
new newbies that'd like to here. Now for those of you who don't recall that
thread:
What will most of the AD&D worlds be like in 600 years? Most of them take place
in a medieval setting and 600 years puts 'em in about the 20th century. IMO,
the most interesting aspect of this discussion was the effect of magic on
technological advancement. The Cerilia in 600 years thread was more confined to
Cerilia, but I'd like to see what you have to say about magic's effect on the
general AD&D worlds. Now a few provoking questions:
Would magic help or hinder "mundane" advancement?
Would magic over technology lead to a "better" or "worse" world?
There are lots more to this but I'll leave it at that. Remember, Earth's
history cannot be a basis for everything. Not every world will have a
Renaissance. Not every world with space flight and tanks will be filled with
Democracies. The history of Earth has been played out one way. Remember that
things are different on Cerilia, Toril, and all those other worlds.
- -Andrew
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01-26-1999, 11:57 PM #2Jim CooperGuest
The Future of the Multiverse
Olesens wrote:
> The Cerilia in 600 years thread was more confined to
> Cerilia, but I'd like to see what you have to say about magic's effect on the general AD&D worlds.<
Actually, if I may say so, (and I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's
toes), could we just please confine this thread to Cerilia? If I had
wanted to talk about the other worlds without any context to Birthright,
I would have subscribed to those lists ...
Besides, Cerilia is fascinating enough without going to different
places, and we have yet to fully explore this universe!
Cheers,
Darren (You all know my views on this thread ...)
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01-27-1999, 09:20 AM #3JulesMrshn@aol.coGuest
The Future of the Multiverse
In a message dated 1/26/99 3:01:56 PM Central Standard Time,
olesens@bellatlantic.net writes:
>
I can answer that now. It would lead to the same world. People don't change,
their way of death does.
Take for example our neck of the woods, Earth.
Look out side. Things are better then they were almost everyplace. That is
if you live out of 3rd world countries. But for the sake of this argument I
will be exampling the USA, because that is were I live.
Heck, this place is nicer, cleaner, and healthier then it has ever been.
Think of the first years of the nation, when life expectancy was not good.
Yet is it better? Nope. Franly there are just too many ways to die.
Shooting, Viruses, Cancer, and the big one nuclear weapons. I mean, as lng as
the governments of the world don;t have death wishes we should be fine, but if
something happens, then poof all gone.
Its not better then the early days of the country, but not worse. Its just
different. The same goes for Cerilia. It won't be better, it won't be worse,
it will be different.
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01-27-1999, 02:06 PM #4
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The Future of the Multiverse
> Would magic help or hinder "mundane" advancement?
Hinder...
Why meddle in the mundane,
When you have the Arcane?
> Would magic over technology lead to a "better" or "worse" world?
An equally bad world...
- the Falcon
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01-27-1999, 02:26 PM #5Kai BesteGuest
The Future of the Multiverse
> What will most of the AD&D worlds be like in 600 years? Most of
> them take place in a medieval setting and 600 years puts 'em in
> about the 20th century. IMO, the most interesting aspect of this
> discussion was the effect of magic on technological advancement.
> The Cerilia in 600 years thread was more confined to Cerilia,
> but I'd like to see what you have to say about magic's effect on the
> general AD&D worlds. Now a few provoking questions:
I think we should keep this discussion restricted to Cerilia. I think
that most people on this list have subscribed to discuss BR, and not
to talk about FR or some other AD&D world. Cerilia is also much
closer to our real world history. I think the Forgotten (and rightly
so) Realms will stagnate for another couple thousand years until
Elminster and crew finally kick the bucket, but that's another topic.
> Would magic help or hinder "mundane" advancement?
> Would magic over technology lead to a "better" or "worse" world?
"Better" and "worse" can't be answered that easily, since a lot of it
depends on your vantage point. For me, the world generally is ok,
aside from the little problems everybody has. If I was living in the
Third World I would be thinking different. From a moral point of view
the world will only become a better place when the people start
behaving in a better way. As Nietzsche said, every higher developed
society is based on violence. Maybe that's true. Whatever, this is
beside the point.
IMHO magic will neither hinder nor advance technology. But as
technology advances, magic will slowly fade away until very little
will be left and Cerilia will become a "normal" place, much like our
world. There will be little left besides humans (no elves, dwarfes,
dragons and giants).
well, that's just my 2 GB
Kai
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01-27-1999, 08:28 PM #6OlesensGuest
The Future of the Multiverse
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Kai Beste wrote:
>
>
> IMHO magic will neither hinder nor advance technology. But as
> technology advances, magic will slowly fade away
Perhaps so, perhaps not. I have a feeling that magic will always remain strong
in the elves. And so long as there is no hunting down of all human wizards,
that will stay alive too. In a low-magic world like Cerilia, magic may not
dominate over technology, but you might be able to buy a 166 pentium computer
for $1,000 or a 600 HMA (High Mage Aelies) Pentium for just a tad more. Or why
not own a M1 Abrams with Treads of Speed for those special military missions?
IMO, Magic will always be part of Cerilia, but technology will dominate since
magic is hard to come by.
But on a comparison note, magic could hinder technology is worlds like Toril of
FR. In Cerilia, mages are so rare that the limits of magic are hard to imagine
for the masses so they turn to the possiblities of technology. But in Toril,
why waste time trying to figure out how to make a hand grenade or car when a
wizard could just make a Gem of Fireball or a speedy version of Tenser's Disk
(or even teleporting things). Given 600 years, CErilians could be driving
around in SUVs and launching satalites while Torilians would be using Teleport
Portals and flying into space with Breath Vacume and Really Improved Fly. The
Torilians would slowly make technologial progression, but in 600 years they
might just have invented the non-magical canon.
> until very little
> will be left and Cerilia will become a "normal" place, much like our
> world. There will be little left besides humans (no elves, dwarfes,
> dragons and giants).
I think the elves and dwarves will survive if they can become friends of the
humans. Goblinoids are not very technilogically inclined, so eventually humans
would really outpace them and be able to destroy them (although that would be
genoside so I don't think they'd do that). More likely the Goblinoids would
become slaves, servents, and maybe an accepted species if they could outgrow
thier violent traits.
>
>
> well, that's just my 2 GB
>
> Kai
and there's my 2 more,
Andrew
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Kai Beste wrote:
<snip>
IMHO magic will neither hinder nor advance technology. But as
technology advances, magic will slowly fade away
Perhaps so, perhaps not. I have a feeling that magic will always
remain strong in the elves. And so long as there is no hunting down
of all human wizards, that will stay alive too. In a low-magic world
like Cerilia, magic may not dominate over technology, but you might be
able to buy a 166 pentium computer for $1,000 or a 600 HMA (High Mage Aelies)
Pentium for just a tad more. Or why not own a M1 Abrams with Treads
of Speed for those special military missions? IMO, Magic will always
be part of Cerilia, but technology will dominate since magic is hard to
come by.
But on a comparison note, magic could hinder technology is worlds like
Toril of FR. In Cerilia, mages are so rare that the limits of magic
are hard to imagine for the masses so they turn to the possiblities of
technology. But in Toril, why waste time trying to figure out how
to make a hand grenade or car when a wizard could just make a Gem of Fireball
or a speedy version of Tenser's Disk (or even teleporting things).
Given 600 years, CErilians could be driving around in SUVs and launching
satalites while Torilians would be using Teleport Portals and flying into
space with Breath Vacume and Really Improved Fly. The
Torilians would slowly make technologial progression, but in 600 years
they might just have invented the non-magical canon.
until very little
will be left and Cerilia will become a "normal" place, much like our
world. There will be little left besides humans (no elves, dwarfes,
dragons and giants).
I think the elves and dwarves will survive if they can become friends of
the humans. Goblinoids are not very technilogically inclined, so
eventually humans would really outpace them and be able to destroy them
(although that would be genoside so I don't think they'd do that).
More likely the Goblinoids would become slaves, servents, and maybe an
accepted species if they could outgrow thier violent traits.
well, that's just my 2 GB
Kai
and there's my 2 more,
Andrew
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01-28-1999, 01:15 PM #7BinagranGuest
The Future of the Multiverse
Olesens wrote:
> Would magic help or hinder "mundane" advancement?
Hmm, intriguing question. Personally, I like the idea that magic would enhance
advancement. Given that a lot of the people with the brains to do the research are
mostly going to be mages anyway, I would say that in their search to improve their
magic they will almost inevitably stumble across technnology.Gunpowder would be
discovered by accident trying by mixing the ingredients together.
Electricity could perhaps be an attempt to provide a defense for your tower (and
until generators are developed would be maintained by a renewable spell).
The internal combustion engine might be developed bylooking for a cheaper way of
creating a Iron Golem.
Heh, even Nuclear Technology (or at least the splitting of the atom) might be
accomplished by spell casting to see a small enough object.
Can you imagine a mage in space, some kind of "Free Movement" spell and a "Create
Air" spell and he doesn't even need a space-suit.
I could go on all day thinking up magical additions and reasons for technology
discoveries but I'll stop here.
For an interesting look at the effect of low-tech enhancements to a magic rich world
read Joel Rosenberg's Guardian's of the Flame series (especially how the wizards
come up with their response to gunpowder and firearms).
> Would magic over technology lead to a "better" or "worse" world?
Hmm, I think that magic would perhaps lead to a "cleaner" world. Without the need
for a high incidence of non-renewable resources (I'm assuming we're talking
traditional fantasy here over magic/tech and tech worlds) for things such as cars,
electricity etc. It would be the work of but a moment for a true mage to craft a
spell to clean his realm of all poisons in the atmosphere.
Anyway there's some of my thoughts on the matter.
Binagran
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01-28-1999, 04:11 PM #8Kenneth GauckGuest
The Future of the Multiverse
In Classical Greece, the mode of inquiry was based on rationalism. The
subsequent age, Hellenism, however, saw a shift towards regarding nature as
full of arcane secrets. Greeks, and then Romans, were facinated by the
magic of the east. The purpose of research (esp in the D&D sense) was not
to discover the laws of nature, but the secrets of nature.
Secrets? How so? A scientist can explain how a plane's engine works, a
nuclear power plant generates energy, or a disease is passed by genetics.
Hearing the scientist we understand what is said, and can act upon that
knowledge. Can a wizard explain how a spell is cast to a cast? Can a
warrior act upon that knowledge? You can download atomic plans from the
internet and build a bomb. Can a fighter pick up as scroll and cast spells?
No, there is more to it that simply a mechanical analysis.
A society which embraces an arcane view of nature sees the act of creation
(of the world) as pregnent with a secret order. It is neccesary to discover
this secret order to be able to safely harness the secret formulas,
incantations, and recipies. Otherwise, like inquirers, one is destroyed by
ones curiosity.
Since this mode of thought comingled so nicely with Christian views on
nature and the divinity of creation and nature, this view of nature as
arcane lasted from the Hellenistic era to modern era. The very rules of D&D
are bound up in its assumptions. If we assume that society abandon this
view of nature, the very rules of magic and research in the game no longer
make sense. In the same way if we adopted certain Reformation beleifs about
the Priesthood of all Believers, class distinctions would be meaningless.
Everyone could learn magic, cast it, create it without limitation. The game
as we know it would be transformed into the kind of game were all bodies of
knowledge are available for purchase by anyone. I am sure we are all
familiar with games designed like this. I have no desire to lessen the
attraction of D&D's special system by abandoning the arcane view of the
universe it embodies for a scientific one. The system where classes are
distinctive is quite cumbersome compares to a system where all characters
are the same. I would not bother to play D&D if the idea that wizards have
special knowledge which no one else can tap into did not carry its own
weight and make the game richer.
As I see it, each of the four main classes has special knowledge which
*cannot* be learned by the other classes. You need to be a theif to do
what a thief does. The theif as special knowledge, tricks, and techniques.
The priest has religious insite. The warrior has his own skills,
techniques, and practices learned over the course of rigourous training by
others who posses them already. And, of course, the magic-user with his
special knowledge.
Why create a world that will not be D&D in so many years? Why not use a
Baconian assesment of progress, such as Francis Bacon saw when he wrote _The
New Atlantis_, whereby progress did not alter the special roles and
functions of the social orders.
Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net
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01-28-1999, 04:45 PM #9BenGuest
The Future of the Multiverse
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The scarcity of magic in Cerillia makes me think it would turn out a =
bit like Star Wars. Some special guys can use magic (the Force), but it =
doesn't really affect the way technology develops. ( ie. no Force =
powered starships, etc.)
=
Ben
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The scarcity of magic in Cerillia makes me think it would turn =
out a bit=20
like Star Wars. Some special guys can use magic (the Force), but it =
doesn't=20
really affect the way technology develops. ( ie. no Force powered =
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Ben
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01-28-1999, 10:10 PM #10Jim CooperGuest
The Future of the Multiverse
Ben wrote:
> The scarcity of magic in Cerillia makes me think it would turn out
> a bit like Star Wars. Some special guys can use magic (the Force), but
> it doesn't really affect the way technology develops. ( ie. no Force
> powered starships, etc.)<
Exactly.
Cheers,
Darren
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