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  1. #1
    Olesens
    Guest

    The Future of the Multiverse

    OK, this is has been discussed before, but it produced some really interesting
    discussions from one little post (anyone remember "Cerilia in 600 years"?). I
    though that discussing it again would be interesting, and I'm sure there are a
    new newbies that'd like to here. Now for those of you who don't recall that
    thread:

    What will most of the AD&D worlds be like in 600 years? Most of them take place
    in a medieval setting and 600 years puts 'em in about the 20th century. IMO,
    the most interesting aspect of this discussion was the effect of magic on
    technological advancement. The Cerilia in 600 years thread was more confined to
    Cerilia, but I'd like to see what you have to say about magic's effect on the
    general AD&D worlds. Now a few provoking questions:

    Would magic help or hinder "mundane" advancement?
    Would magic over technology lead to a "better" or "worse" world?

    There are lots more to this but I'll leave it at that. Remember, Earth's
    history cannot be a basis for everything. Not every world will have a
    Renaissance. Not every world with space flight and tanks will be filled with
    Democracies. The history of Earth has been played out one way. Remember that
    things are different on Cerilia, Toril, and all those other worlds.

    - -Andrew

  2. #2
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    The Future of the Multiverse

    Olesens wrote:
    > The Cerilia in 600 years thread was more confined to
    > Cerilia, but I'd like to see what you have to say about magic's effect on the general AD&D worlds.<

    Actually, if I may say so, (and I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's
    toes), could we just please confine this thread to Cerilia? If I had
    wanted to talk about the other worlds without any context to Birthright,
    I would have subscribed to those lists ...

    Besides, Cerilia is fascinating enough without going to different
    places, and we have yet to fully explore this universe!

    Cheers,
    Darren (You all know my views on this thread ...)

  3. #3
    JulesMrshn@aol.co
    Guest

    The Future of the Multiverse

    In a message dated 1/26/99 3:01:56 PM Central Standard Time,
    olesens@bellatlantic.net writes:

    >

    I can answer that now. It would lead to the same world. People don't change,
    their way of death does.

    Take for example our neck of the woods, Earth.

    Look out side. Things are better then they were almost everyplace. That is
    if you live out of 3rd world countries. But for the sake of this argument I
    will be exampling the USA, because that is were I live.

    Heck, this place is nicer, cleaner, and healthier then it has ever been.
    Think of the first years of the nation, when life expectancy was not good.
    Yet is it better? Nope. Franly there are just too many ways to die.
    Shooting, Viruses, Cancer, and the big one nuclear weapons. I mean, as lng as
    the governments of the world don;t have death wishes we should be fine, but if
    something happens, then poof all gone.

    Its not better then the early days of the country, but not worse. Its just
    different. The same goes for Cerilia. It won't be better, it won't be worse,
    it will be different.

  4. #4
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    The Future of the Multiverse

    > Would magic help or hinder "mundane" advancement?

    Hinder...
    Why meddle in the mundane,
    When you have the Arcane?

    > Would magic over technology lead to a "better" or "worse" world?

    An equally bad world...

    - the Falcon

  5. #5
    Kai Beste
    Guest

    The Future of the Multiverse

    > What will most of the AD&D worlds be like in 600 years? Most of
    > them take place in a medieval setting and 600 years puts 'em in
    > about the 20th century. IMO, the most interesting aspect of this
    > discussion was the effect of magic on technological advancement.
    > The Cerilia in 600 years thread was more confined to Cerilia,
    > but I'd like to see what you have to say about magic's effect on the
    > general AD&D worlds. Now a few provoking questions:

    I think we should keep this discussion restricted to Cerilia. I think
    that most people on this list have subscribed to discuss BR, and not
    to talk about FR or some other AD&D world. Cerilia is also much
    closer to our real world history. I think the Forgotten (and rightly
    so) Realms will stagnate for another couple thousand years until
    Elminster and crew finally kick the bucket, but that's another topic.

    > Would magic help or hinder "mundane" advancement?
    > Would magic over technology lead to a "better" or "worse" world?

    "Better" and "worse" can't be answered that easily, since a lot of it
    depends on your vantage point. For me, the world generally is ok,
    aside from the little problems everybody has. If I was living in the
    Third World I would be thinking different. From a moral point of view
    the world will only become a better place when the people start
    behaving in a better way. As Nietzsche said, every higher developed
    society is based on violence. Maybe that's true. Whatever, this is
    beside the point.
    IMHO magic will neither hinder nor advance technology. But as
    technology advances, magic will slowly fade away until very little
    will be left and Cerilia will become a "normal" place, much like our
    world. There will be little left besides humans (no elves, dwarfes,
    dragons and giants).

    well, that's just my 2 GB

    Kai

  6. #6
    Olesens
    Guest

    The Future of the Multiverse

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    Kai Beste wrote:

    >

    >
    > IMHO magic will neither hinder nor advance technology. But as
    > technology advances, magic will slowly fade away

    Perhaps so, perhaps not. I have a feeling that magic will always remain strong
    in the elves. And so long as there is no hunting down of all human wizards,
    that will stay alive too. In a low-magic world like Cerilia, magic may not
    dominate over technology, but you might be able to buy a 166 pentium computer
    for $1,000 or a 600 HMA (High Mage Aelies) Pentium for just a tad more. Or why
    not own a M1 Abrams with Treads of Speed for those special military missions?
    IMO, Magic will always be part of Cerilia, but technology will dominate since
    magic is hard to come by.

    But on a comparison note, magic could hinder technology is worlds like Toril of
    FR. In Cerilia, mages are so rare that the limits of magic are hard to imagine
    for the masses so they turn to the possiblities of technology. But in Toril,
    why waste time trying to figure out how to make a hand grenade or car when a
    wizard could just make a Gem of Fireball or a speedy version of Tenser's Disk
    (or even teleporting things). Given 600 years, CErilians could be driving
    around in SUVs and launching satalites while Torilians would be using Teleport
    Portals and flying into space with Breath Vacume and Really Improved Fly. The
    Torilians would slowly make technologial progression, but in 600 years they
    might just have invented the non-magical canon.

    > until very little
    > will be left and Cerilia will become a "normal" place, much like our
    > world. There will be little left besides humans (no elves, dwarfes,
    > dragons and giants).

    I think the elves and dwarves will survive if they can become friends of the
    humans. Goblinoids are not very technilogically inclined, so eventually humans
    would really outpace them and be able to destroy them (although that would be
    genoside so I don't think they'd do that). More likely the Goblinoids would
    become slaves, servents, and maybe an accepted species if they could outgrow
    thier violent traits.

    >
    >
    > well, that's just my 2 GB
    >
    > Kai

    and there's my 2 more,

    Andrew

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    &nbsp;
    Kai Beste wrote:
    &lt;snip>

    &nbsp;
    IMHO magic will neither hinder nor advance technology. But as
    technology advances, magic will slowly fade away
    Perhaps so, perhaps not.&nbsp; I have a feeling that magic will always
    remain strong in the elves.&nbsp; And so long as there is no hunting down
    of all human wizards, that will stay alive too.&nbsp; In a low-magic world
    like Cerilia, magic may not dominate over technology, but you might be
    able to buy a 166 pentium computer for $1,000 or a 600 HMA (High Mage Aelies)
    Pentium for just a tad more.&nbsp; Or why not own a M1 Abrams with Treads
    of Speed for those special military missions?&nbsp; IMO, Magic will always
    be part of Cerilia, but technology will dominate since magic is hard to
    come by.
    But on a comparison note, magic could hinder technology is worlds like
    Toril of FR.&nbsp; In Cerilia, mages are so rare that the limits of magic
    are hard to imagine for the masses so they turn to the possiblities of
    technology.&nbsp; But in Toril, why waste time trying to figure out how
    to make a hand grenade or car when a wizard could just make a Gem of Fireball
    or a speedy version of Tenser's Disk (or even teleporting things).&nbsp;
    Given 600 years, CErilians could be driving around in SUVs and launching
    satalites while Torilians would be using Teleport Portals and flying into
    space with Breath Vacume and Really Improved Fly.&nbsp; The
    Torilians would slowly make technologial progression, but in 600 years
    they might just have invented the non-magical canon.
    until very little
    will be left and Cerilia will become a "normal" place, much like our
    world. There will be little left besides humans (no elves, dwarfes,
    dragons and giants).
    I think the elves and dwarves will survive if they can become friends of
    the humans.&nbsp; Goblinoids are not very technilogically inclined, so
    eventually humans would really outpace them and be able to destroy them
    (although that would be genoside so I don't think they'd do that).&nbsp;
    More likely the Goblinoids would become slaves, servents, and maybe an
    accepted species if they could outgrow thier violent traits.
    &nbsp;
    well, that's just my 2 GB
    Kai
    and there's my 2 more,
    Andrew



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  7. #7
    Binagran
    Guest

    The Future of the Multiverse

    Olesens wrote:

    > Would magic help or hinder "mundane" advancement?

    Hmm, intriguing question. Personally, I like the idea that magic would enhance
    advancement. Given that a lot of the people with the brains to do the research are
    mostly going to be mages anyway, I would say that in their search to improve their
    magic they will almost inevitably stumble across technnology.Gunpowder would be
    discovered by accident trying by mixing the ingredients together.
    Electricity could perhaps be an attempt to provide a defense for your tower (and
    until generators are developed would be maintained by a renewable spell).
    The internal combustion engine might be developed bylooking for a cheaper way of
    creating a Iron Golem.
    Heh, even Nuclear Technology (or at least the splitting of the atom) might be
    accomplished by spell casting to see a small enough object.
    Can you imagine a mage in space, some kind of "Free Movement" spell and a "Create
    Air" spell and he doesn't even need a space-suit.
    I could go on all day thinking up magical additions and reasons for technology
    discoveries but I'll stop here.
    For an interesting look at the effect of low-tech enhancements to a magic rich world
    read Joel Rosenberg's Guardian's of the Flame series (especially how the wizards
    come up with their response to gunpowder and firearms).

    > Would magic over technology lead to a "better" or "worse" world?

    Hmm, I think that magic would perhaps lead to a "cleaner" world. Without the need
    for a high incidence of non-renewable resources (I'm assuming we're talking
    traditional fantasy here over magic/tech and tech worlds) for things such as cars,
    electricity etc. It would be the work of but a moment for a true mage to craft a
    spell to clean his realm of all poisons in the atmosphere.

    Anyway there's some of my thoughts on the matter.

    Binagran

  8. #8
    Kenneth Gauck
    Guest

    The Future of the Multiverse

    In Classical Greece, the mode of inquiry was based on rationalism. The
    subsequent age, Hellenism, however, saw a shift towards regarding nature as
    full of arcane secrets. Greeks, and then Romans, were facinated by the
    magic of the east. The purpose of research (esp in the D&D sense) was not
    to discover the laws of nature, but the secrets of nature.

    Secrets? How so? A scientist can explain how a plane's engine works, a
    nuclear power plant generates energy, or a disease is passed by genetics.
    Hearing the scientist we understand what is said, and can act upon that
    knowledge. Can a wizard explain how a spell is cast to a cast? Can a
    warrior act upon that knowledge? You can download atomic plans from the
    internet and build a bomb. Can a fighter pick up as scroll and cast spells?
    No, there is more to it that simply a mechanical analysis.

    A society which embraces an arcane view of nature sees the act of creation
    (of the world) as pregnent with a secret order. It is neccesary to discover
    this secret order to be able to safely harness the secret formulas,
    incantations, and recipies. Otherwise, like inquirers, one is destroyed by
    ones curiosity.

    Since this mode of thought comingled so nicely with Christian views on
    nature and the divinity of creation and nature, this view of nature as
    arcane lasted from the Hellenistic era to modern era. The very rules of D&D
    are bound up in its assumptions. If we assume that society abandon this
    view of nature, the very rules of magic and research in the game no longer
    make sense. In the same way if we adopted certain Reformation beleifs about
    the Priesthood of all Believers, class distinctions would be meaningless.

    Everyone could learn magic, cast it, create it without limitation. The game
    as we know it would be transformed into the kind of game were all bodies of
    knowledge are available for purchase by anyone. I am sure we are all
    familiar with games designed like this. I have no desire to lessen the
    attraction of D&D's special system by abandoning the arcane view of the
    universe it embodies for a scientific one. The system where classes are
    distinctive is quite cumbersome compares to a system where all characters
    are the same. I would not bother to play D&D if the idea that wizards have
    special knowledge which no one else can tap into did not carry its own
    weight and make the game richer.

    As I see it, each of the four main classes has special knowledge which
    *cannot* be learned by the other classes. You need to be a theif to do
    what a thief does. The theif as special knowledge, tricks, and techniques.
    The priest has religious insite. The warrior has his own skills,
    techniques, and practices learned over the course of rigourous training by
    others who posses them already. And, of course, the magic-user with his
    special knowledge.

    Why create a world that will not be D&D in so many years? Why not use a
    Baconian assesment of progress, such as Francis Bacon saw when he wrote _The
    New Atlantis_, whereby progress did not alter the special roles and
    functions of the social orders.

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@earthlink.net

  9. #9
    Ben
    Guest

    The Future of the Multiverse

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    The scarcity of magic in Cerillia makes me think it would turn out a =
    bit like Star Wars. Some special guys can use magic (the Force), but it =
    doesn't really affect the way technology develops. ( ie. no Force =
    powered starships, etc.)

    =
    Ben

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    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The scarcity of magic in Cerillia makes me think it would turn =
    out a bit=20
    like Star Wars. Some special guys can use magic (the Force), but it =
    doesn't=20
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  10. #10
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    The Future of the Multiverse

    Ben wrote:
    > The scarcity of magic in Cerillia makes me think it would turn out
    > a bit like Star Wars. Some special guys can use magic (the Force), but
    > it doesn't really affect the way technology develops. ( ie. no Force
    > powered starships, etc.)<

    Exactly.

    Cheers,
    Darren

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