Results 1 to 4 of 4

Thread: English Counts

  1. #1
    Kai Beste
    Guest

    English Counts

    [snipped lots of good stuff]
    > Viscounts (vicomte) are vice-counts, and are inferior to counts. To my
    > knowledge this rank does not exist in German. My Langenscheidt identifies
    > viscount as an English title with no translation. If this is incorrect I
    > would be very interested in the name for this title.

    There's no equivalent that I know of. Later the title of Freiherr
    (equivalent to baron) was created.
    The German system was not as well structured as the English system.
    In fact, it was quite confusing. Yesterday I talked to a friend of
    mine who is a student of history and we looked it up.

    As you already stated, Graf (count from latin comes = companion)
    first was an administrative title.
    A Mark (march) was a tract of land that was recently conquered, and a
    vassal with more military rights than a count was needed. Enter the
    Markgraf (viscount). A viscount had the right of the Heerbann (call
    to arms). In terms of power and social rank a Markgraf was equivalent
    to a duke.
    A Herzog (from Old High German herizogo, which designated a
    military leader, English duke, from latin dux = leader) originally
    was a tribe's elected military leader. Later this changed into a
    hereditary noble title.
    A Baron (baron) was the lowest ranking member of the Hochadel (high
    nobility).
    The Pfalzgraf has something of a special status. A Pfalz was one of
    the Karolingian castles. The regent had no real capital, but
    travelled across the land from on Pfalz to the next. Pfalzgraf was an
    administrative title. I know of only one "domain" that later on used
    that title, the "Pfalzgraf bei Rhein" (count palatine on the Rhine),
    a very influential person on par with a duke or marquis, and later
    one of the electors.
    Fuerst is a term used to describe a member of the nobility and is a
    superconcept for all the above.

    So far, so good, but now things really get confusing.

    Herzog, Markgraf, Pfalzgraf and Baron all belonged to the
    Reichfuersten. This means, they swore fealty directly to the crown.
    Some counts belonged in there as well, but most of the counts swore
    fealty to a Markgraf or Herzog. This lead to the fractioning of the
    empire and sometimes conflicting loyalties, since their highest
    liegelord nominally still was the king, but their direct liegelord
    was somebody else.

    Later, Baron, Freiherr and Fuerst became mere titles, not necessarily
    acompanied by land.

    Sorry for using this much German on the list, but some of the phrases
    really don't translate well into Englisch

    laters

    Kai

  2. #2
    Daniel McSorley
    Guest

    English Counts

    From: Kai Beste
    >Sorry for using this much German on the list, but some of the phrases
    >really don't translate well into Englisch
    >
    Are you kidding? Why do you think the Brechts in my game say "Spracen sie
    Brennan?" I try to use as much German as I can for flavor. I'll get to use
    these titles the next time my players encounter a Brecht land. I know it
    says the highest Brecht title is Count, but that's probably because the
    Anuireans wanted to translate it as being low on the scale. I like the
    "Herzog of Muden" much better than just the "Count".

    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu
    http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~mcsorley/

  3. #3
    Kenneth Gauck
    Guest

    English Counts

    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    - ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01BE487C.24499820
    Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    The books state that duke is an Imperial title, so graf would be the =
    highest native title in Brech=FCr. Grevesm=FChl is the only duchy in =
    the Great Bay and this adhearance to a foriegn title is a sore spot =
    between the people and its regent (see p. 12). I would advise using one =
    of the titles such as Markgraf (Marquis) or Landgraf (Landgrave), which, =
    as Kai pointed out, were more or less equivilent to that of duke.

    While the title of Graf in Brect=FCr translates to count in Anuire, =
    there is no reason to consider them wholey equivilent. The Havens book =
    says it evolved from a royal title [probably in more tribal times] and =
    so should not be considered equal to the Anurian count, who rules a =
    single province (in theory). In England, the Earls (counts) had no =
    superior except the King, until Edward III made his sons dukes, and for =
    a long time the dukes were Plantagenats. In France and Germany, where =
    every son of a count was a count, the title was more of a commonplace. =20

    Those Brechts wishing to refer to Anurian titles might refer to the =
    Erzherzog von B=F6ruine, the F=FCrst von Avanil, the K=F6nigin von =
    =C4ren (Queen of Aerenwe), or the Kaiser von Anuirn. (Transliterating =
    fantasy names is something of an art, others may propose other =
    versions.)

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@earthlink.net

    - -----Original Message-----
    From: Daniel McSorley
    To: birthright@MPGN.COM
    Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 9:32 AM
    Subject: Re: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - English Counts


    >From: Kai Beste
    >>Sorry for using this much German on the list, but some of the phrases
    >>really don't translate well into Englisch
    >>
    >Are you kidding? Why do you think the Brechts in my game say "Spracen =
    sie
    >Brennan?" I try to use as much German as I can for flavor. I'll get =
    to use
    >these titles the next time my players encounter a Brecht land. I know =
    it
    >says the highest Brecht title is Count, but that's probably because the
    >Anuireans wanted to translate it as being low on the scale. I like the
    >"Herzog of Muden" much better than just the "Count".
    >
    >Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu
    >http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~mcsorley/


    - ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01BE487C.24499820
    Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable






    The books state that duke is an Imperial title, so graf would be =
    the=20
    highest native title in Brech=FCr.  Grevesm=FChl is the only duchy =
    in the Great=20
    Bay and this adhearance to a foriegn title is a sore spot between the =
    people and=20
    its regent (see p. 12).  I would advise using one of the =
    titles such=20
    as Markgraf (Marquis) or Landgraf (Landgrave), which, as Kai pointed =
    out, were=20
    more or less equivilent to that of duke.
     
    While the title of Graf in Brect=FCr translates to count in Anuire, =
    there is=20
    no reason to consider them wholey equivilent.  The Havens book says =
    it=20
    evolved from a royal title [probably in more tribal times] and so should =
    not be=20
    considered equal to the Anurian count, who rules a single province (in=20
    theory).  In England, the Earls (counts) had no superior except the =
    King,=20
    until Edward III made his sons dukes, and for a long time the dukes were =

    Plantagenats.  In France and Germany, where every son of a count =
    was a=20
    count, the title was more of a commonplace. 
     
    Those Brechts wishing to refer to Anurian titles might refer to the =

    Erzherzog von B=F6ruine, the F=FCrst von Avanil, the K=F6nigin von =
    =C4ren (Queen of=20
    Aerenwe), or the Kaiser von Anuirn.  (Transliterating fantasy names =
    is=20
    something of an art, others may propose other versions.)
     
    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@earthlink.net
     
    -----Original Message-----From: =
    Daniel McSorley=20
    <mcsorley.1@osu.edu>To: birthright@MPGN.COM <birthright@MPGN.COM>Date: =
    Monday,=20
    January 25, 1999 9:32 AMSubject: Re: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - English=20
    Counts>From: Kai Beste <BESTE@jerry.iued.uni-h=
    eidelberg.de>>>Sorry=20
    for using this much German on the list, but some of the=20
    phrases>>really don't translate well into=20
    Englisch>>>Are you kidding?  Why do you think the =
    Brechts=20
    in my game say "Spracen sie>Brennan?"  I try to =
    use as=20
    much German as I can for flavor.  I'll get to use>these =
    titles the=20
    next time my players encounter a Brecht land.  I know =
    it>says the=20
    highest Brecht title is Count, but that's probably because =
    the>Anuireans=20
    wanted to translate it as being low on the scale.  I like=20
    the>"Herzog of Muden" much better than just the=20
    "Count".>>Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu>http://www.cis.ohio-sta=
    te.edu/~mcsorley/

    - ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01BE487C.24499820--

  4. #4
    Jeff Dunnett
    Guest

    English Counts

    Remeber that according to most things that I have read about the
    Brecht say that they don't really care about a formal rank structure.
    Most of them didn't have title until after the Anuirean occupation, so
    most of their titles would be self proclaimed. So they can say they
    are a Viscount and it could be considered the same rank as a duke or
    prince in Anuire. The point is that I prefer to think that the Bretch
    regent decides his\her own title.

    Jeff




    - ---Kenneth Gauck wrote:
    >
    > The books state that duke is an Imperial title, so graf would be the
    highest native title in Brech├╝r. Grevesm├╝hl is the only duchy in the
    Great Bay and this adhearance to a foriegn title is a sore spot
    between the people and its regent (see p. 12). I would advise using
    one of the titles such as Markgraf (Marquis) or Landgraf (Landgrave),
    which, as Kai pointed out, were more or less equivilent to that of duke.
    >
    > While the title of Graf in Brect├╝r translates to count in Anuire,
    there is no reason to consider them wholey equivilent. The Havens
    book says it evolved from a royal title [probably in more tribal
    times] and so should not be considered equal to the Anurian count, who
    rules a single province (in theory). In England, the Earls (counts)
    had no superior except the King, until Edward III made his sons dukes,
    and for a long time the dukes were Plantagenats. In France and
    Germany, where every son of a count was a count, the title was more of
    a commonplace.
    >
    > Those Brechts wishing to refer to Anurian titles might refer to the
    Erzherzog von B├Âruine, the F├╝rst von Avanil, the K├Ânigin von ├ären
    (Queen of Aerenwe), or the Kaiser von Anuirn. (Transliterating
    fantasy names is something of an art, others may propose other
    versions.)
    >
    > Kenneth Gauck
    > c558382@earthlink.net
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Daniel McSorley
    > To: birthright@MPGN.COM
    > Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 9:32 AM
    > Subject: Re: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - English Counts
    >
    >
    > >From: Kai Beste
    > >>Sorry for using this much German on the list, but some of the
    phrases
    > >>really don't translate well into Englisch
    > >>
    > >Are you kidding? Why do you think the Brechts in my game say
    "Spracen sie
    > >Brennan?" I try to use as much German as I can for flavor. I'll
    get to use
    > >these titles the next time my players encounter a Brecht land. I
    know it
    > >says the highest Brecht title is Count, but that's probably because
    the
    > >Anuireans wanted to translate it as being low on the scale. I like
    the
    > >"Herzog of Muden" much better than just the "Count".
    > >
    > >Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu
    > >http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~mcsorley/
    >
    >






    The books state that duke is an Imperial title, so graf would be
    the
    highest native title in Brech├╝r.┬* Grevesm├╝hl is the only duchy in the
    Great
    Bay and this adhearance to a foriegn title is a sore spot between the
    people and
    its regent┬*(see p. 12).┬* I would advise using one of the titles such
    as Markgraf (Marquis) or Landgraf (Landgrave), which, as Kai pointed
    out, were
    more or less equivilent to that of duke.
    ┬*
    While the title of Graf in Brect├╝r translates to count in Anuire,
    there is
    no reason to consider them wholey equivilent.┬* The Havens book says it
    evolved from a royal title [probably in more tribal times] and so
    should not be
    considered equal to the Anurian count, who rules a single province (in
    theory).┬* In England, the Earls (counts) had no superior except the
    King,
    until Edward III made his sons dukes, and for a long time the dukes
    were
    Plantagenats.┬* In France and Germany, where every son of a count was a
    count, the title was more of a commonplace.┬*
    ┬*
    Those Brechts wishing to refer to Anurian titles might refer to
    the
    Erzherzog von B├Âruine, the F├╝rst von Avanil, the K├Ânigin von ├ären
    (Queen of
    Aerenwe), or the Kaiser von Anuirn.┬* (Transliterating fantasy names is
    something of an art, others may propose other versions.)
    ┬*
    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@earthlink.net
    ┬*
    -----Original Message-----From:
    Daniel McSorley
    To: birthright@MPGN.COM Date:
    Monday,
    January 25, 1999 9:32 AMSubject: Re: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - English
    Counts>From: Kai Beste >>Sorry

    for using this much German on the list, but some of the
    phrases>>really don't translate well into
    Englisch>>>Are you kidding?┬* Why do you think the Brechts
    in my game say "Spracen sie>Brennan?"┬* I try to use as
    much German as I can for flavor.┬* I'll get to use>these titles the
    next time my players encounter a Brecht land.┬* I know it>says the
    highest Brecht title is Count, but that's probably because
    the>Anuireans
    wanted to translate it as being low on the scale.┬* I like
    the>"Herzog of Muden" much better than just the
    "Count".>>Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu>http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~mcsorley/


    __________________________________________________ _______
    DO YOU YAHOO!?
    Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. English Counts
    By Kenneth Gauck in forum MPGN Mailinglist archive 1996-1999
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-23-1999, 06:39 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
BIRTHRIGHT, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, D&D, the BIRTHRIGHT logo, and the D&D logo are trademarks owned by Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and are used by permission. ę2002-2010 Wizards of the Coast, Inc.