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  1. #11
    DKEvermore@aol.co
    Guest

    Destroying faith and economy

    In a message dated 1/9/99 7:34:09 PM Central Standard Time, madfox@wxs.nl
    writes:

    > As some of you know, I have been DM'ing a BR-BPEM since two months. I
    > should have done this before, because it pointed out several, in my
    > opinion, flawed logics in the rules. One of the strangest rules is that
    > a landed regent can occupy his own provinces and destroy the holdings of
    > other regents. It clearly states destroy and not reduce to 0. All this
    > costs is 1 GB extra for upkeep and a -1 loyalty. The -1 loyalty is
    > absolutely nothing, because each unit counts as 1 law holding, so
    > chances are high you have more then enough law to ignore this. When just
    > glancing over this rule, there appears to be nothing wrong with this.
    > When you think about it, you realise that it ignores two very important
    > things: (1) economic, (2) you can't buy faith.

    I don't really believe guilds are businesses. I believe they are
    organizations, unions that _control_ business and force the local business to
    pay them a portion of the "take". In return, the guild leaves them alone, and
    may even represent them if they are challenged by other guilds. If you break
    the guilds, the individual merchants get to actually _keep_ more of the money
    they make!

    If you send the military in on a church you are essentially saying to the
    people, "Worship here and you'll go to jail. Or worse."

    So heck yeah. Most pantheistic people that I know of (the old Celts for
    instance) weren't particularly loyal to one god over the other, rather they
    did religious stuff because it would be "unlucky" or tempting "fate" to not
    pay one's respects to one god or another. So yeah, if one temple gets shut
    down, the only ones who are really gonna be pissed are the truly faithful--the
    clergy.

    > Even stranger is the fact that a regent can destroy all temple holdings
    > and an other temple can immidiatly raise their holdings. Suddenly the
    > people who were worshipping for instance Ruornil will worship Haelyn?
    > Sure, people might come to the temple, even donate money, but they will
    > not worship there and weren't the realm spells based on the energy
    > created by faith? In RL the Spanish did something simmular in the
    > Netherland to the protestants, it was one of the reasons there started a
    > rebellion against the Spanish. At that time the Netherland gave the
    > Spanish more gold then America, so you can guess what they lost (the
    > Dutch did win the rebellion).

    I think monotheistic religions are fundamentally different that "polys". I do
    not think they are comparable.

    That's my piece.
    Dustin K Evermore

  2. #12
    Memnoch
    Guest

    Destroying faith and economy

    Actually, Tim, there is a distinction that most fail to make when it comes
    to destroying holdings/reducing them to zero when occupying a province.

    #1 A foreign regent (i.e. one that does not hold the land's regency) can
    reduce any holding in a province to zero.

    #2 The current landed regent can declare war and occupy his own provinces
    to "destroy" (i.e. reduce beyond level 0) any holding that is not fortified.

    The difference between the two is in #1, the one attacking the holding is
    not the current landed regent, whereas in #2, the current landed regent (who
    is presumed to know a lot about his kingdom) has the knowledge to root out
    the entire holding.

    I would give rules quotes and semantics, but I don't have my rulebook handy.
    One thing to remember is that you must read not only the rules (the text)
    but *how* it is written, or rather, what is *not* written in order to do it
    correctly.

    Memnoch
    - -----Original Message-----
    From: Tim Nutting
    To: birthright@MPGN.COM
    Date: Monday, January 11, 1999 1:51 AM
    Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Destroying faith and economy


    |Okay... This may be a faux pass, but I am responding to my own post.
    |
    |
    |
    |Guys, we got the rules wrong. Read the Rulebook, and the rules on
    occupying
    |again. You CANNOT destroy a holding with occupation. You CAN reduce it to
    |level 0. That is not destroyed. Further, this CANNOT be done to a
    |fortified holding, that must be taken by siege like a castle.
    |
    |Sorry if I'm stepping on toes, but that's what it says.
    |
    |Tim Nutting
    |zero@wiredweb.com
    |
    |************************************************* **************************
    ||'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
    |

  3. #13
    Memnoch
    Guest

    Destroying faith and economy

    Ok, I found my rulebook here goes the quotes:

    This is under "Conquest and Occupation" under the Occupation subheading on
    page 66:

    "When a regent occupies a province, he can reduce any or all law, guild, or
    temple holdings to zero"... As long as the conqueror occupies the province
    with at least one unit, he can perform taxation and replace the ruler in all
    respects...

    Now, this snippet is obviously intended to portray a foreign regent
    occupying another's provinces. I believe that the reduction to zero stems
    from the fact that the foreign regent cannot destroy the holding in its
    entirety due to not having full (regency-wise) information for the province
    and thus cannot root out the full influence of the holdings regent.

    Next, under the "occupying your own provinces colored box":

    "A regent can use a declare war action to occupy a province he already
    rules. The result is his option to *destroy* (emphasis mine) other regents'
    holdings in his territory.

    Now, the difference here is that the current landed regent has the
    (regency-wise) knowledge of all the holdings regent's influence and thus can
    root out all enemy individuals, where the foreign one cannot.

    Memnoch
    - -----Original Message-----
    From: Tim Nutting
    To: birthright@MPGN.COM
    Date: Monday, January 11, 1999 1:51 AM
    Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Destroying faith and economy


    |Okay... This may be a faux pass, but I am responding to my own post.
    |
    |
    |
    |Guys, we got the rules wrong. Read the Rulebook, and the rules on
    occupying
    |again. You CANNOT destroy a holding with occupation. You CAN reduce it to
    |level 0. That is not destroyed. Further, this CANNOT be done to a
    |fortified holding, that must be taken by siege like a castle.
    |
    |Sorry if I'm stepping on toes, but that's what it says.
    |
    |Tim Nutting
    |zero@wiredweb.com
    |
    |************************************************* **************************
    ||'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
    |

  4. #14
    JulesMrshn@aol.co
    Guest

    Destroying faith and economy

    In a message dated 1/11/99 6:50:58 AM Central Standard Time, madfox@wxs.nl
    writes:

  5. #15

    Destroying faith and economy

    In a message dated 1/10/99 7:40:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
    Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca writes:

    >

    Humm, how do I roleplay RPs/Regents. Well, I guess that depends on what the
    regent is doing and how important I think it is as well as how much fun I
    think something would be. For instance, the Diplomacy action. I NEVER allow
    this to be simplified into a die roll. I think diplomatic actions are too
    important. I always make these a role playing experience, as I think the
    diplomatic dance is just too much fun!
    As far as what I "let them spend RPs on", I guess I let them spend them on
    any action that I think would be best handeled by dice and the domain actions.
    If I had the rebellion that you mentioned, I would also not let them settle
    the stiuation with a simple "well, I'll just spend 10 RP on an agitate
    action." What fun would that be? I'd make them role play finding the rebellion
    leaders and then discovering the reasons behind the rebellion and such. MUCH
    more fun that just saying "Oh look, I rolled a 20. I guess the rebellion is
    over. Can I make that trade route now?"
    Blastin

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