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Thread: Review: Tribes of the Heartles
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01-07-1999, 09:30 AM #1Jim CooperGuest
Review: Tribes of the Heartles
Whalejudge@aol.com wrote:
> IMO, this product fails miserably to meet the standards set by the previous regional products.<
I shall have to disagree with this assessment. IMO, along with KotGDs,
TotHW were the two best BR products put out (I would include BoP, but
the topics it covers are just so important to the game, that one supp
just doesn't do them justice - oh where, oh where is the Book of
Regency ...).
First, the cover art was worth the price I paid, alone. That one
picture *so perfectly* summed up the Vos culture to me, that I literally
screamed out "YES!" when I first saw the supp in the store.
Secondly, I liked that there were two separate books. Now I can give
something to my greedy PCs to salivate over without fear of their beady
little eyes scanning the really important stuff. I really hate that
players have the same access to material they shouldn't have (without
buying the supp outright, which I can't stop them). And besides, that's
exactly what they did in the original boxed set (having two separate
books), so in fact CoS, RH, and HotGB were the oddities.
The warcards not being perforated was a downer, but what the heck -
that's what they make those cutter boards for, no?!?
Lastly, while I, too, think all the supps are a little skimpy on details
(NO ROADS - NO TRs LISTED - NO CASTLE INFO - WHERE ARE THE REGENT'S
CHILDREN LISTED - ETC.), and while I for one would like to see 1000
pages on every entry, I like the it also leaves room for a little leeway
for me to do things. Besides, half of Vos really IS faceless
wilderness, so where did Mr. Ed go wrong .... ?!?
:D
Now - Shadow World supps - thats whats really lacking in BR ....
Cheers,
Darren (My two GBs)
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01-07-1999, 09:29 PM #2Ed StarkGuest
Review: Tribes of the Heartles
At 01:30 AM 1/7/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Whalejudge@aol.com wrote:
>> IMO, this product fails miserably to meet the standards set by the
previous regional products.<
>
>I shall have to disagree with this assessment. IMO, along with KotGDs,
>TotHW were the two best BR products put out (I would include BoP, but
>the topics it covers are just so important to the game, that one supp
>just doesn't do them justice - oh where, oh where is the Book of
>Regency ...).
I'm workin' on getting it out there ... I'll let you know.
>First, the cover art was worth the price I paid, alone. That one
>picture *so perfectly* summed up the Vos culture to me, that I literally
>screamed out "YES!" when I first saw the supp in the store.
Yes, Tony did an excellent job. He came to me with the "flaming head" idea,
and I had to go to management and say "No, really; it's an orog head, not a
human one." I'm not sure why that made a difference, but we got it approved.
>Secondly, I liked that there were two separate books. Now I can give
>something to my greedy PCs to salivate over without fear of their beady
>little eyes scanning the really important stuff. I really hate that
>players have the same access to material they shouldn't have (without
>buying the supp outright, which I can't stop them). And besides, that's
>exactly what they did in the original boxed set (having two separate
>books), so in fact CoS, RH, and HotGB were the oddities.
That was the plan (the "Greedy PCs" material, anyway). I believed that the
majority of Vosgaard was ruled by people other than PCs or not ruled by
anyone at all.
>The warcards not being perforated was a downer, but what the heck -
>that's what they make those cutter boards for, no?!?
If we'd had the choice, they would've been perfed, but we didn't. Glad you
also know how to use a scissors ;-)
>Lastly, while I, too, think all the supps are a little skimpy on details
>(NO ROADS - NO TRs LISTED - NO CASTLE INFO - WHERE ARE THE REGENT'S
>CHILDREN LISTED - ETC.), and while I for one would like to see 1000
>pages on every entry, I like the it also leaves room for a little leeway
>for me to do things. Besides, half of Vos really IS faceless
>wilderness, so where did Mr. Ed go wrong .... ?!?
Several points--
There aren't any roads in Vosgaard, IMO (and I wrote the book, so I won the
argument). There aren't any established trade routes, though there's plenty
of potential (Rovninodensk sells its varsks to someone, and there's an
adventure hook concerning the possibility of setting up trade routes.)
As far as castles go, I waffled a little on that. I honestly believe there
shouldn't be more than a handful of castles in Vosgaard (if that), and most
of those should be in ruins. I hope PCs are building them, though.
The regents' children I just left out in most occasions. Sorry about that.
I'm glad you feel it left you some leeway.
As far as leaving several of the regions as "faceless wilderness" (you hit
the nail on the head, there) or "mystical areas" (Tuar Annwn), that was my
choice and I'm glad I made it. In most cases, there aren't any regents
there, or even an established populace--but that's why we've got the
"create your own domain" rules in the back of the BR basic book. Remember
those? If we didn't leave some places undefined, you'd never get to use
them on the map of Cerilia. You gotta go CONQUER Vosgaard; it doesn't come
pre-packaged. And Tuar Annwn ... it was either spend 32 or more pages
describing the feral elf nation (out of a possible 96 pages) or leave it up
to the DMs. I think I made the right choice there, too.
>Now - Shadow World supps - thats whats really lacking in BR ....
You're killing me. ;-)
Ed Stark
Creative Director
Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Team
TSR Website: http://www.tsr.com
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01-07-1999, 10:07 PM #3
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Review: Tribes of the Heartles
All hail!
Glad to here from you Ed! I was starting to wonder.... ;)
I must concur with both Ed and my fellow canuck... the Vos cover is tres bien!
(even it if has to be an orog head... the half eaten brechts make up for it.)
:)
A few questions though Ed:
I played the Markovlan Saravok in a PBeM (And it is my favorite of favorite
domains!!) but in the Rovninodensk description, it talks about the Twin Towers
(don't have the book in front of me, so the spelling is all wrong to be
certain.. ) The "aktybuk" and 'mysterious tower I can't remember' that had never
been destroyed, despite the years of plunder, strife and warfare. Here's the
questions:
1) Which one is which? I assume one tower is the home of the regent, while the
other has something to do with the Temple of Might, but I could never figure out
which one was where. Are they even separate constructs, or just two different
towers of the same fortress/temple?
2) Would the presence of these towers constitute a fortification or a castle?
3) Can the regent 'on the receiving end' of Sergei Uhktra's trade route muster 1
varsk unit even if Sergei is fresh sold out of varsks? I mean, he only gets a
number of units = to the holding level per year right? Once these are sold,
what becomes of his trade route?
4) How can Sergei build trade routes if there are no roads? Andrei & Danica are
so busy fighting each other, and the goblins are so busy fighting everyone....
so not likely to find many 'federally funded' roadworks there.
Is it possible to 'load' the varsk into a sort of 'varsk train' and walk them to
where they need to go? A varsk is not like a wagon of goods; varsks can walk.
They can eat food found along the way (goblins? Danic'as troops? :)
All things considered, I'd have to say that Vosgaard is my favorite region of
Cerilia. Much 'lower powered' (in terms of GBs/RPs generated per turn) and I
love the 'wild and dangerous' feel of it all. Tuar Annwyn is totally
mysterious, and only enough info to make the players wonder (and shiver). Great
work on this supplement Ed!
*WHEN* TSR final returns Birthright to the shelves, I only hope they don't go
'FR" with it, and try to describe every nook and cranny of every nook &
cranny.... Tuar Annwyn is better left untouhed for example (IMO). The Shadow
World, well that's a different story.
At least, that's the way I see it.
Keith
- --
"I hate it when my brain stem hurts."
The New Draftmine Repository:
http://members.home.net/morgramen/index.html
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01-07-1999, 10:35 PM #4TOMMY.ASHTON@asu.edGuest
Review: Tribes of the Heartles
On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Ed Stark wrote:
Yes, Mr. Stark is still alive!
> At 01:30 AM 1/7/99 -0800, you wrote:
> >Whalejudge@aol.com wrote:
> >Regency ...).
>
> I'm workin' on getting it out there ... I'll let you know.
Anything right now would be nice....
Glad to know at least one person at TSR hasn't forgotten Birthright.
>
> Yes, Tony did an excellent job. He came to me with the "flaming head" idea,
> and I had to go to management and say "No, really; it's an orog head, not a
> human one." I'm not sure why that made a difference, but we got it approved.
Those unfortunate orogs, no representation in Congress. :o)
>
>
> >Lastly, while I, too, think all the supps are a little skimpy on details
> >(NO ROADS - NO TRs LISTED - NO CASTLE INFO - WHERE ARE THE REGENT'S
> >CHILDREN LISTED - ETC.), and while I for one would like to see 1000
> >pages on every entry, I like the it also leaves room for a little leeway
> >for me to do things. Besides, half of Vos really IS faceless
> >wilderness, so where did Mr. Ed go wrong .... ?!?
Here Ed I don't think that he was talking so much about Vosgaard as maybe the
Ruins of the Empire or Cities of the Sun. I guess though that is up to us
DM's.
> Several points--
>
> As far as castles go, I waffled a little on that. I honestly believe there
> shouldn't be more than a handful of castles in Vosgaard (if that), and most
> of those should be in ruins. I hope PCs are building them, though.
Not after the goblins get through with them.
>
> As far as leaving several of the regions as "faceless wilderness" (you hit
> the nail on the head, there) or "mystical areas" (Tuar Annwn), that was my
> choice and I'm glad I made it. In most cases, there aren't any regents
> there, or even an established populace--but that's why we've got the
> "create your own domain" rules in the back of the BR basic book. Remember
> those? If we didn't leave some places undefined, you'd never get to use
> them on the map of Cerilia. You gotta go CONQUER Vosgaard; it doesn't come
> pre-packaged. And Tuar Annwn ... it was either spend 32 or more pages
> describing the feral elf nation (out of a possible 96 pages) or leave it up
> to the DMs. I think I made the right choice there, too.
Still four pages giving a short right up on Tuar Annwn would have been nice.
Though for those interested the old Shadow Elves supplement on the TSR website
gave me some ideas for fleshing out these elves.
> >Now - Shadow World supps - thats whats really lacking in BR ....
>
> You're killing me. ;-)
Yeah, but I really, really was looking forward to the Cold Rider Trilogy.
T
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01-07-1999, 10:40 PM #5mmacgregor@statestreet.cGuest
Review: Tribes of the Heartles
I agree- I thought the supplement was very well done. As for the
cover-it was one of Tony's best. I encourage you guys to tell him
directly-his email address is Kissfanz@aol.com.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Review: Tribes of the Heartless Waste
Author: morgramen (morgramen@home.com) at INTERNET
Date: 01/07/1999 5:07 PM
>I must concur with both Ed and my fellow canuck... the Vos cover is tres
>bien! (even it if has to be an orog head... the half eaten brechts make up
>for it.) :)
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01-07-1999, 11:46 PM #6OlesensGuest
Review: Tribes of the Heartles
Morg wrote:
> *WHEN* TSR final returns Birthright to the shelves, I only hope they don't go
> 'FR" with it, and try to describe every nook and cranny of every nook &
> cranny.... Tuar Annwyn is better left untouhed for example (IMO). The Shadow
> World, well that's a different story.
I agree. I have a friend who is a FR lover (and isn't particuarly fond of BR, he
hates those short bearded dwarves and low-magic feel) so he and I occasionally get
into BR vs FR arguments. Here's another weapon to use in my reporte :-)
But seriously, I do like how some of Cerilia was left a little undescribed. I think
most of Cerilia could use a little more (especially Anuire and Khinasi, who both got
mostly one-paged realm descriptions) describing though. One thing I love about
Birthright is its patheon. My FR friend has recently informed me that there are 90+
gods in FR (counting demi-gods, demi-human gods, humanoid gods, etc.). IMO-BR has
plenty (counting human gods only) with only 1/8 of that 90. I get the feeling that
the BR gods are more...friendly....more cunning. Since the FR patheron (all ninty
of em) can meet in the same place and fight, they do not have to resort to being
cunning as often as the BR gods must. The BR gods also have a much more human,
loving feeling. I guess since they were (and essencially are) human. I also like
how BR is very controlled. I mean, a 14th level charachter is very, very hard to
find (as it should be according to the DMG). But in FR (as I often tell my friend),
charachter levels seem to run rampant. I mean 30+ level wizards? What ever
happened to the DMG limit of 20th level? I can understand making gods 20+ level, as
they are, well gods. But charachters? "Well they're NPCs," my friend has
retorted. What about the "whatever applies to PCs goes for NPCs and vice versa"
rule? I'll stop rambling on now and give Ed my BR wishlist (things I'd like to see
over the next few years). They are in no particular order.
1) SHADOW WORLD INFO!!!! Including adventures and a Tome of the Shadow World
2) Beastiary. With Shadow World monsters in addition to descriptions of new or
changed regular-Cerilia creatures (reprint BR stuff in the Anual moster book 3)
3) Realms of Cerilia: A hardbound book covering all realms in all of cerilia in
three pages (one to holdings, treasury, TRs, roads, etc). Also has usual RoE, CoS,
etc. listing of the area's guilds, temples, and sources.
4) Book of Regency
5) Guilds, Temples, and Sources of Cerilia: A hardbound book to accompany Realms of
Cerilia. One-Two page description of each guild, temple, and source-holding wizard.
6) Possibly a DM or Player version of the "of Cerilia" books
7) A new battle system (I remember hearing about hexes?)
Well that's all I can think of for now.
- -Andrew
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01-08-1999, 12:53 AM #7Pieter SleijpenGuest
Review: Tribes of the Heartles
Olesens wrote:
> 1) SHADOW WORLD INFO!!!! Including adventures and a Tome of the Shadow World
Yes please, pretty please?!
> 2) Beastiary. With Shadow World monsters in addition to descriptions
> of new or changed regular-Cerilia creatures (reprint BR stuff in the
> Anual moster book 3)
It is easy to come with my own creeps, do not need a supplement for
that.
> 3) Realms of Cerilia: A hardbound book covering all realms in all of cerilia in
> three pages (one to holdings, treasury, TRs, roads, etc). Also has usual RoE, CoS,
> etc. listing of the area's guilds, temples, and sources.
Allready have that, even though it is spread over 5 books...
> 4) Book of Regency
Yes pls.
> 5) Guilds, Temples, and Sources of Cerilia: A hardbound book to accompany Realms of
> Cerilia. One-Two page description of each guild, temple, and source-holding wizard.
Why? You essentialy have it in your first request.
>
> 6) Possibly a DM or Player version of the "of Cerilia" books
Not really needed in my opinion.
> 7) A new battle system (I remember hearing about hexes?)
A DEFINATE YES!
>
> Well that's all I can think of for now.
What about a book of Guildsmasters?
>
> -Andrew
>
> ************************************************** *************************
> > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
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01-08-1999, 01:55 AM #8Joe & Jodi WalderGuest
Review: Tribes of the Heartles
I'd like to add another, although I know the RPGA members really won't
care because they own it already, but how about the Hogunmark Domain
Source Book for the rest of us who aren't members in the RPGA?
Please don't let this open up an arguement regarding "being a member" or
"not being a member." I would just like a product, that's already out
there, that I can use for a campaign that I love.
I've got other ideas but that's for a later posting.
Joe
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01-08-1999, 04:34 AM #9
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Review: Tribes of the Heartles
Humm....seems that one Post from Ed sends everyone into a tizzy! I guess we
all get excited when we see any interest from someone from TSR, especially one
of it's best writers...
I gotta agree that i find that the "lack" of info in certain areas is a
good thing. I like having areas that I can do with as I see fit. It also keeps
my players guessing, cause I can throw in some things that they might not
expect.
As for the lack of other info like castles, Children, trade routes, ect,
again, I like that It leaves me room ta do what I want. If I want there ta be
a big castle in such and such provance, I can say there is and not have ta
worry about some player waving a book at me saying "But the Book says....".
I also like how the player and Dm stuff was seperated. I wish ALL the region
books were like that as then I could allow the players to read all they wanted
in Their section and not worry about them reading something taht i wanted ta
keep a secret.
Ahh well, Just thought I'd throw in My two cents....
Blastin
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01-08-1999, 09:39 AM #10Jim CooperGuest
Review: Tribes of the Heartles
Ed Stark wrote:
Yes, Tony did an excellent job. He came to me with the "flaming
head" idea, and I had to go to management and say "No, really; it's an
orog head, not a human one." I'm not sure why that made a difference,
but we got it approved.>snip<
No matter - I still think its much better as a human head (and if you
squint your eyes just so, it really does look like one, so hah!)
There aren't any roads in Vosgaard, IMO (and I wrote the book, so
I won the argument). There aren't any established trade routes, though
there's plenty of potential (Rovninodensk sells its varsks to someone,
and there's an adventure hook concerning the possibility of setting up
trade routes.)>snip<
Agree first point, disagree with second, but thats just MNSHO. What
self-respecting Vos manly man is going to worry about actually *TRADING*
for something ... especially when there are some nice fat Brecht /
Khinasi/ (hell even) goblin realms right next door! Down a pint and
duff the guys I say! :D
As far as castles go, I waffled a little on that. I honestly
believe there shouldn't be more than a handful of castles in Vosgaard
(if that), and most of those should be in ruins. I hope PCs are building
them, though.>snip<
If any of my Vos PCs ever tried building a castle I would whip their
girly ass up the Zhainge River with everything a DM could throw at them.
Heh. :D Seriously, in a land where agriculture is scarcely practiced,
Vos to me are a semi-nomadic culture - which precludes any major
longterm structures, especially huge stone cesspits like those
pasty-faced Anuireans build ...
As far as leaving several of the regions as "faceless wilderness"
(you hit the nail on the head, there) or "mystical areas" (Tuar Annwn),
that was my choice and I'm glad I made it. In most cases, there aren't
any regents there, or even an established populace--but that's why we've
got the "create your own domain" rules in the back of the BR basic book.
Remember those? If we didn't leave some places undefined, you'd never
get to use them on the map of Cerilia. You gotta go CONQUER Vosgaard; it
doesn't come pre-packaged. And Tuar Annwn ... it was either spend 32 or
more pages describing the feral elf nation (out of a possible 96 pages)
or leave it up to the DMs. I think I made the right choice there,
too.>snip<
Well, unless the DM takes care of this part with homegrown rules,
conquering Vosgaard wouldn't be too difficult because the current domain
actions aren't that great an impediment. For instance, I would have
made the rule action cost upwards of 50-100 GBs per action ... But yes,
the flavour and intention was there and I really liked how you handled
it (You gotta impress a Mr. Whalejudge, Ed - you've already got a loyal
fan right here!).
Oh, and just because I feel like it ... For all you game designers out
there, for what its worth (and I can only speak for myself): I would
much prefer spending 20 bucks on a 96 page supp about Tuar Annwn alone;
this type of thorough coverage I appreciate far more than having a 96
page supp about a whole region that only spends 2 paragraphs on each
area. Maybe thats just me, but I hope everyone understands what I mean.
Ed - you worked for WEG. Well, for example, if I had a choice between a
book that covers the basics about Stock Light Freighters as opposed to a
dozen supps that focused on one kind of ship within each book (including
a special 120 pg book solely on the Falcon), I would choose to buy by
way of the latter route (even though I would end up spending 10X as
much). Why? Because I pay game designers to think *for* me so that I
can earn a living in some other field and enjoy my leisure time to the
fullest - why should I spend my hard earned cash on games only to have
to read the game designers telling me I should go make up everything
myself!!!
AAAAHHHHH!!!!
Game designers - go figure. I'll never figure them out. Hah - then
again, nobody understands my meandering logic, so maybe I should become
one of them ... :P
> >Now - Shadow World supps - thats whats really lacking in BR ....
>
You're killing me. ;-)
Don't speak too hastily guy ... if BR doesn't get re-released soon, WotC
may just find a Vos Comrade (look-a-like) barging down their front doors
next year ... and remember - Vos don't take prisoners ...
:D
Cheers,
Comrade Darren (throwing my warspear onto the hot coals, in preparation
...) :D
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