View Poll Results: How Should Regent performed Domain actions be resolved?

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  • (1) Using a skill check with the applicable skill.

    6 24.00%
  • (2) Using a d20 roll modified by dividing all modifiers to the applicable skill by 5.

    15 60.00%
  • (3) Using a d20 roll modified by dividing the number of ranks in the applicable skill by 5.

    2 8.00%
  • (4) Other (please provide suggestion with as much detail as possible)

    2 8.00%
  • (5) Abstain

    0 0%
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  1. #1
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    This poll needs to be done in parallel with the RP/GB question prior to deciding the other polls. This decision could determine how easy it is to resolve domain actions. This would lead to determining DC of doman actions, etc.

    This is to determine part of the mechanic for resolving domain actions.

    For example attempting a Diplomacy domain action, the applicable skill is diplomacy. Say that the regent has 10 ranks and a +5 ability modifier. Should the base check be a d20 +15 (ranks + ability mod), d20 +2 (10/5) or d20 + 3 ((10 + 5)/5)?

    In this example the character would be at least 7th level (due to number of ranks) so this wouldn’t be a starting character (i.e., 1st level).

    This does not account for other bonuses that specifically provide bonuses to domain actions vice skills, e.g., Master Feats, Regent Focus, Domain Attitude, etc. This poll is not to determine how domain actions are resolved when characters, other than the regent himself, performs the action. I figure that if we start with the regent himself, it should more difficult for others to perform an action in his stead but that can be figured out after the basics are hammered out.
    Duane Eggert

  2. #2
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    While I voted for option 2 (dividing the total skill bonus by 5), it struck me that one other option that should have been presented here was having a d20 roll with one or more applicable skill synergies each providing a flat +2 bonus if the regent has 5 or more ranks in the skill. By this method, several relevant skill synergies could be listed for any given domain action. Diplomacy, for example, might benefit from synergies from Bluff, Diplomacy, K/Nobility, and Sense Motive. If a regent had 5 ranks in each of those skills, he could get a +8 on the domain action. We'll call this method Alternative A.

    A second, more moderate option (one much closer to the original 2e system) would be to allow only one skill synergy per domain action. i.e., 5 ranks in Diplomacy would grant +2 to Diplomacy domain actions, but no other skills would add such a bonus. This would be Alternative B.

    Thought those were reasonable options to include in a 3.5 conversion/revision, since this is the basic mechanical framework of the PHB skill system. If anyone prefers either of these alternative systems, vote for other, then post and say you which you prefer (Alternative A or B).

    Osprey

  3. #3
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    Osprey schrieb:



    >This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

    > You can view the entire thread at:

    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...ST&f=36&t=2843

    >

    > Osprey wrote:

    > While I voted for option 2 (dividing the total skill bonus by 5), it struck me that one other option that should have been presented here was having a d20 roll with one or more applicable skill synergies each providing a flat +2 bonus if the regent has 5 or more ranks in the skill. By this method, several relevant skill synergies could be listed for any given domain action. Diplomacy, for example, might benefit from synergies from Bluff, Diplomacy, K/Nobility, and Sense Motive. If a regent had 5 ranks in each of those skills, he could get a +8 on the domain action. We`ll call this method Alternative A.A second, more moderate option (one much closer to the original 2e system) would be to allow only one skill synergy per domain action. i.e., 5 ranks in Diplomacy would grant +2 to Diplomacy domain actions, but no other skills would add such a bonus. This would be Alternative B.Thought those were reasonable options to include in a 3.5 conversion/revision, since this is the

    > basic mechanical framework of the PHB skill system. If anyone prefers either of these alternative systems, vote for other, then post and say you which you prefer (Alternative A or B).Osprey

    >

    Bluff and Sense Motive already give a +2 bonus to Diplomacy. That means

    if not only skill ranks but the whole score, divided by 5 that synergies

    are already included in the bonus to the domain action Diplomacy or not?

    bye

    Michael

  4. #4
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Bluff and Sense Motive already give a +2 bonus to Diplomacy.
    That means if not only skill ranks but the whole score, divided by 5 that synergies
    are already included in the bonus to the domain action Diplomacy or not?
    In the case of Option 2 in the main poll, yes: you would calculate your total skill bonus, including all relevant feats, synergies, special abilities (such as Bloodmark and Divine Aura), and ability score modifiers, then divide by 5 (dropping fractions) to obtain the domain action bonus.

    Ex.: an 8th level regent with a Charisma of 17 (+3) has 10 ranks in Diplomacy, and 5 ranks in Bluff, Knowledge (Nobility), and Sense Motive. He also has the Negotiator feat (+2). Finally, he is a scion with the Bloodmark blood ability (+1). This gives him a total Diplomacy skill bonus of +23. He would get a +4 bonus to Diplomacy-based domain actions (Diplomacy, Create Trade Route, and Create/Contest/Rule Temples).
    If the same character also had the Master Diplomat feat, he would then have a +25 Diplomacy skill bonus, and gain a +7 bonus to Diplomacy-based domain actions (+5 for the skill bonus, +2 for the Master Diplomat feat).

    Osprey

  5. #5
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    Osprey schrieb:



    >This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

    > You can view the entire thread at:

    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...ST&f=36&t=2843

    >

    >------------ QUOTE ----------

    >Bluff and Sense Motive already give a +2 bonus to Diplomacy. That means if not only skill ranks but the whole score, divided by 5 that synergies are already included in the bonus to the domain action Diplomacy or not?

    >-----------------------------

    >

    >In the case of Option 2 in the main poll, yes: you would calculate your total skill bonus, including all relevant feats, synergies, special abilities (such as Bloodmark and Divine Aura), and ability score modifiers, then divide by 5 (dropping fractions) to obtain the domain action bonus. Ex.: an 8th level regent with a Charisma of 17 (+3) has 10 ranks in Diplomacy, and 5 ranks in Bluff, Knowledge (Nobility), and Sense Motive. He also has the Negotiator feat (+2). Finally, he is a scion with the Bloodmark blood ability (+1). This gives him a total Diplomacy skill bonus of +23. He would get a +4 bonus to Diplomacy-based domain actions (Diplomacy, Create Trade Route, and Create/Contest/Rule Temples). If the same character also had the Master Diplomat feat, he would then have a +25 Diplomacy skill bonus, and gain a +7 bonus to Diplomacy-based domain actions (+5 for the skill bonus, +2 for the Master Diplomat feat). Osprey

    >

    But you are not saying that he get´s a +7 from the totalled Diplomacy

    score and in addition the Bluff and other synergies who already raised

    the normal Diplomacy score give another +2 synergy directly to the

    domain action?

    bye

    Michael

  6. #6
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    As I noted in the thread regarding RP caps, I think not requiring RP for

    domain actions is a reinterpretation of the role of bloodlines and regency

    that is better left to DM`s homebrew BR or for another campaign setting

    that employs a system of domain rules very much like those of the BR

    setting, but shouldn`t be used in the BRCS update itself.



    I should note, however, that the poll above asks has only if RP should be

    required for all domain actions except those to create level 0 holdings

    when there should be additional actions that do not require

    RP. "Character" actions (Adventure, Ply Trade, Training) are the most

    obvious of these, but those that did not require RP in the original domain

    rules should similarly not require them in an update. Domain level

    activities that do not intrinsically alter the nature of provinces and/or

    holdings should similarly not require RP. Grants, Finances, Decrees,

    Research, for example. Those having to do with troops (moving, mustering,

    disbanding them or declaring war) should also not require RP. I don`t

    think the intent was to add RP to those actions, but the above poll does

    not address them, so I want to make sure that`s not what we`re talking about.



    As for the DC`s of domain actions, there should be no single, universally

    applied DC for all domain actions regardless of what type of action it

    is. The difficulty of a particular type of domain action should determined

    on an action type by action type basis. That is, the DC of a Build action

    should be 5 if the regent delegates the activities to a subordinate (a

    court action) and `automatic` if he supervises the activities himself. The

    DC of a Rule action might be 15, while those of other actions should be

    based on an assessment of the relative difficulty of the action itself. As

    has been suggested, the DC should then be modified by the context in which

    the action is being performed--the number of holdings and their levels that

    are effected, modifiers for race (elves should have more trouble ruling

    province population levels up, for example), etc.



    The original domain action`s "success numbers" were typically 5 or 10,

    though there were a few token 2`s in there. That seemed to work fine with

    one or two notable exceptions (Rule and Contest) so I don`t think those

    basic numbers should be changed, and in the case of those two actions a DC

    15 might be appropriate.



    Gary

  7. #7
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    But you are not saying that he get´s a +7 from the totalled Diplomacy
    score and in addition the Bluff and other synergies who already raised
    the normal Diplomacy score give another +2 synergy directly to the
    domain action?
    bye
    Michael
    OK, I think there's some mixing of different otions here. The last example I gave for Diplomacy was an example of Option 2 in the poll, taking the total skill bonus and divide by 5 (dropping fractions). This is my preferred method, as it accounts for a character's talents and skill synergies without making them overly dominant bonuses (as a straight skill check would do).

    2 posts back I described two alternative methods. These were meant to be complete alternatives, not somehow combined with option 2 from the poll. Allow me to recap those 2 alternatives:

    Alternative 1: each domain action has a list of applicable skill synergies. The acting regent/lt. then gains a +2 bonus to the domain action for each of those skill in which he has 5 or more ranks.

    Alternative 2: there is a single key skill for each domain action. If the regent/lt. has 5 or more ranks in the key skill, he gains a +2 bonus to the domain action.


    Both of these alternatives are meant to stand as fairly direct extrapolations of the 3.5 skill system applied to the domain actions. Neither method relies upon a character's skill bonus, only upon having 5+ ranks in one or more pertinent skills.

    Osprey

  8. #8
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    Having been intimately involved in the use of the BRCS system as a player for two years and a DM for one year (with 20-30 players at a time, that's a lot of actions to see&#33 I think that any increase over the current status quo of +1 per 5 skill ranks would hasten the already noticable regency reserve power creep.

    A little history.
    In 2E, most domain actions required 1 RP or more to power the action. You also did not receive any bonuses to perform the action due to skills, synergy or non existent feats. Thus, a regent spent 3-5 more regency on average to perform a domain action in 2E than in BRCSv1.0. This results in an addition of maybe 6-10 regency into the reserve per season and is the prime reason why the reserves are so high in BRCSv1.0.

    If you choose to sweeten the bonuses further, you will cause the regency pools to increase even more.

    Thus my thoughts. I will cover 2 last for reasons of logic:
    1. Using straight up skill checks widens and magnifies the advantage higher level regents have over lower level regents. This is not in the flavour of BR where many low level regents with high bloodlines do just fine, thank you. IMO, bloodline should be the 'dominant' factor for in-game mechanic success. However, there is no way to compensate for pc skill or lack of :blink:

    3. This is the current system and works good, but could be better. It can be argued that the true measure of skill for a regent also involves their ability modifier and their feats. I agree.

    2. Thus, I propose a modified use of skill bonus for the domain modifier bonus. Instead of a straight divide by 5, which would give us a defacto power creep due to skill bonuses being higher than ranks used in almost all cases, a different divisor should be used. After seeing so many turns being processed and the way regency integrates, I propose a divisor of 10.

    That is, total skill bonus divided by 10.
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  9. #9
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    There is a reason as to why I put this poll out in parallel with the other poll on should domain actions require RP and have both run before the next poll in the series (what should the be standard DC for domain actions).

    IMO people are jumping ahead in trying to make a balanced domain actions system based soley on these proposals.

    The balance of a good domain mechanic is to incorporate the use of RP (or not) and the modifiers (whether a simple skill check or one of the modified versions from this poll) and a DC that reflects the difficulty that would make it a reasonable challenge. But ceratin things must be decided in series and not in parallel which why the order of these polls are structured the way the are.

    If you assume that the BRCS-playtest version's DC of 10 is the one to use, any modifications to other mechanics have a greater effect on how that works. If instead these two polls are taken into consideration when determining the default DC then the balance starts to form. Remember that the default DC does not have to be a 10.
    Duane Eggert

  10. #10
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    With all due respect to Derek, I do agree with Duane on this one. I voted for total skill modifier/5 on the assumption that the DC for the domain actions will be modified. From a previous thread I was given the impression that most agreed.

    I like raising the importance of a characters abilities over bloodline, but not nearly to the extent of a straight skill check.
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