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  1. #1
    Pieter Sleijpen
    Guest

    The Arrival of the godess Shar

    For quite some time now, I have been wondering how it is possible that
    the priests of Nasri in Ghamoura gain spells. Their leader has got an
    evil alignment and their intollerance for other faiths also seems to be
    unlike Nasri. It was Nasri afterall that more or less healed the wounds
    between Haelyn and Avani after the wars between the Khinasi and
    Anuireans. The persecution of wizards in this realm seems also strange
    to a temple of Nasri. Persecution causes grief. Though the persecution
    might come from the way the Masetians were destroyed (cursed wizardly
    magic), but why does this persecution not exist in any of the other
    Island States?

    It would be the easiest to assume that Kriesha, Belinik or the Serpent
    are providing the spells for the priests of this temple, because both do
    not have a strong influence in the Khinasi lands and would love to gain
    it. Belinik would not be subtle enough for such a thing, so he can not
    be concidered. The Serpent is subtle enough, but he is not powerful
    enough to duplicate the powers of Nasri's priests (in my campaign the
    Serpent has become a demi-deity). That leaves Kriesha, but using her as
    an explanation doesn't feel right. What has a godess of winter to do in
    a land that probably has never even seen snow?

    Recently I reread the Planescape book "On Hallowed Ground", trying to
    gain some information to help me build the faith of the orogs, gnolls
    and goblins. By chance I also read the description of the Forgotten
    Realms godess Shar. It states that this godess recently has realised the
    ideals Nasri stands for and that these are diametrically opposed to
    hers. Several of Shars proxies actually fled to the realm of Nasri,
    because Nasri eased the pain of grief instead of nurturing and enlarging
    it as Shar is prone to do. The godess Shar would be perfect as the
    godess behind the temple of Nasri in Ghamoura. As a godess of darkness,
    she can be very subtle and before she can fight Nasri in the planes, she
    would need a presence on Aebrynis. Shar's portofolio also is not taken
    by any other deity on Cerilia, while it might have belonged to Azrai.
    Not to mention that it would offer some great adventure possibilities
    for high level characters. She would also be a good patron of the cults,
    that has recently been discussed on this mailing list.

    What do you think?

    Pieter Sleijpen

  2. #2
    Daniel McSorley
    Guest

    The Arrival of the godess Shar

    From: Pieter Sleijpen
    >For quite some time now, I have been wondering how it is possible that
    >the priests of Nasri in Ghamoura gain spells. Their leader has got an
    >evil alignment and their intollerance for other faiths also seems to be
    >unlike Nasri. It was Nasri afterall that more or less healed the wounds
    >between Haelyn and Avani after the wars between the Khinasi and
    >Anuireans. The persecution of wizards in this realm seems also strange
    >to a temple of Nasri. Persecution causes grief. Though the persecution
    >might come from the way the Masetians were destroyed (cursed wizardly
    >magic), but why does this persecution not exist in any of the other
    >Island States?
    >
    >Recently I reread the Planescape book "On Hallowed Ground", trying to
    >gain some information to help me build the faith of the orogs, gnolls
    >and goblins. By chance I also read the description of the Forgotten
    >Realms godess Shar. It states that this godess recently has realised the
    >ideals Nasri stands for and that these are diametrically opposed to
    >hers. Several of Shars proxies actually fled to the realm of Nasri,
    >because Nasri eased the pain of grief instead of nurturing and enlarging
    >it as Shar is prone to do. The godess Shar would be perfect as the
    >godess behind the temple of Nasri in Ghamoura. As a godess of darkness,
    >she can be very subtle and before she can fight Nasri in the planes, she
    >would need a presence on Aebrynis. Shar's portofolio also is not taken
    >by any other deity on Cerilia, while it might have belonged to Azrai.
    >Not to mention that it would offer some great adventure possibilities
    >for high level characters. She would also be a good patron of the cults,
    >that has recently been discussed on this mailing list.
    >
    I don't like it. One of the things I like about BR is that there is
    variety within religions. In our own history, we have the Inquisition as
    the best example of a good religion doing bad things, and I like it that the
    gods in BR accept and grant spells to priests of a wide variety of
    alignments. They also seem to allow the priests to determine their own
    interpretations of the gods will, for the most part, and this freedom allows
    a wide variety of groups to appear. I have run an evil cult of Haelyn
    against my players (that really confused them, heh), and I can easily see a
    LN or TN follower of Nasri doing just what the group in Ghamoura has done,
    based on some individual's guess about Nasri's wishes, or even just his own
    political ambitions.
    I also don't think this addition would do anything for the Cerilian
    pantheon. There are evil gods, and god that accept evil worshippers, and
    that's really enough. Greyhawk and FR have _extremely_ specialized deitys,
    of everything except the pickle, and I don't think like that, and I don't
    think BR needs a god to be specifically the lord of cults or whatever.

    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu

  3. #3
    Pieter Sleijpen
    Guest

    The Arrival of the godess Shar

    Daniel McSorley wrote:

    > I don't like it. One of the things I like about BR is that there
    > is variety within religions. In our own history, we have the
    > Inquisition as the best example of a good religion doing bad things,

    Comparing a RL religion of the past with Fantasy is rather risky and
    inappropoiate. Unless of coarse you believe that the priests recieved
    spells and special powers like the fantasy priests.

    > and I like it that the gods in BR accept and grant spells to priests
    > of a wide variety of alignments. They also seem to allow the priests
    > to determine their own interpretations of the gods will, for the most
    > part, and this freedom allows a wide variety of groups to appear.

    Except that according to the priesthood description Nasri doesn't accept
    evil priests, while Haelyn and Avani accept LE priests. In my opinion
    fanatism is evil and persecuting priests of other faiths merely because
    they do not worship Nasri is absolutely evil. To be honest it sounds
    like LE to me. And as I told allready, this intollerance of other faiths
    does not fit Nasri (again unlike Avani and Haelyn).

    > I can easily see a LN or TN follower of Nasri doing just what the
    > group in Ghamoura has done, based on some individual's guess about
    > Nasri's wishes, or even just his own political ambitions.

    Within limits yes, but not to the extent that is going on in Ghamoura.
    Besides alignment is not the only restriction a god gives to his
    worshippers. If one of my players would play a priest of Nasri and act
    so intollerant he would be stripped of his priesthood. Avani and Haelyn
    are Nasri's allies afterall. Why then can NPC's do the same?

    > I also don't think this addition would do anything for the Cerilian
    > pantheon. There are evil gods, and god that accept evil worshippers,
    > and that's really enough. Greyhawk and FR have _extremely_specialized
    > deitys, of everything except the pickle, and I don't think like that,
    > and I don't think BR needs a god to be specifically the lord of cults
    > or whatever.

    The lord of cults? In RL all the deities of pantheons were very
    specialized and many pantheons included a lot more gods then even FR.
    Besides Shar is one of the more powerfull and less specialised one.

    Pieter Sleijpen

  4. #4
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    The Arrival of the godess Shar

    Pieter Sleijpen wrote:

    > For quite some time now, I have been wondering how it is possible that
    > the priests of Nasri in Ghamoura gain spells. Their leader has got an
    > evil alignment and their intollerance for other faiths also seems to be
    > unlike Nasri. It was Nasri afterall that more or less healed the wounds
    > between Haelyn and Avani after the wars between the Khinasi and
    > Anuireans. The persecution of wizards in this realm seems also strange
    > to a temple of Nasri. Persecution causes grief. Though the persecution
    > might come from the way the Masetians were destroyed (cursed wizardly
    > magic), but why does this persecution not exist in any of the other
    > Island States?
    >
    > It would be the easiest to assume that Kriesha, Belinik or the Serpent
    > are providing the spells for the priests of this temple, because both do
    > not have a strong influence in the Khinasi lands and would love to gain
    > it. Belinik would not be subtle enough for such a thing, so he can not
    > be concidered. The Serpent is subtle enough, but he is not powerful
    > enough to duplicate the powers of Nasri's priests (in my campaign the
    > Serpent has become a demi-deity). That leaves Kriesha, but using her as
    > an explanation doesn't feel right. What has a godess of winter to do in
    > a land that probably has never even seen snow?
    >
    > Recently I reread the Planescape book "On Hallowed Ground", trying to
    > gain some information to help me build the faith of the orogs, gnolls
    > and goblins. By chance I also read the description of the Forgotten
    > Realms godess Shar. It states that this godess recently has realised the
    > ideals Nasri stands for and that these are diametrically opposed to
    > hers. Several of Shars proxies actually fled to the realm of Nasri,
    > because Nasri eased the pain of grief instead of nurturing and enlarging
    > it as Shar is prone to do. The godess Shar would be perfect as the
    > godess behind the temple of Nasri in Ghamoura. As a godess of darkness,
    > she can be very subtle and before she can fight Nasri in the planes, she
    > would need a presence on Aebrynis. Shar's portofolio also is not taken
    > by any other deity on Cerilia, while it might have belonged to Azrai.
    > Not to mention that it would offer some great adventure possibilities
    > for high level characters. She would also be a good patron of the cults,
    > that has recently been discussed on this mailing list.
    >
    > What do you think?
    >
    > Pieter Sleijpen

    Adding gods to the pantheon is a little problematic.... The BR gods are tied
    directly to the background of the campaign setting, so throwing in a few gods
    from other areas can throw things out of whack in a lot of areas. If one new
    god can make an appearance then why not others? Why can't Zeus make an
    appearance? Why not Quetzelcuatl (sp?) or Oghma?

    I'd suggest that the solution to the alignment problem in Ghamoura should just
    be ruled a unique, exceptional priest; that the alignment of priests of Neserie
    be expanded to allow LE priests, or that the regent of Ghamoura's alignment
    just be changed to LN.

    Personally, I'd just change his alignment if it is that important to conform to
    the rules. That seems like the simplest solution. There are several examples
    of alignments in the published materials that are not compatible with other
    rules in the game, and really should be changed. How about Rhiana Waynmuun,
    regent of Coullabie? She's supposed to be LN according to the HotGB
    supplement. An elven ranger that's LN? Elves can't be lawful and rangers have
    to be of good alignment.... sounds incorrect to me.

    There is one last option.... maybe alignment should not be taken that
    seriously. I personally think alignment is really overemphasized in the game,
    becoming far too intrusive an aspect of the character description that
    interferes with role-playing. I'm pretty sure alignment was meant as a basic
    background aspect of character, not the pervasive influence it seems to be used
    as. If that is the case then it should be fine to allow for a LE priest-regent
    in Ghamoura.

    Gary

  5. #5
    Kenneth Gauck
    Guest

    The Arrival of the godess Shar

    As regular readers will have seen, I favor crafting differnet priest stats
    and spell availablity for the different aspects of a diety. Since the BOP
    suggests that Neserie might be adding the portfolio of death to her others,
    it might be possible to create a priesthood of death for Neserie. While it
    should not conflict with the Neserie we have all come to know and love ,
    there is probably room for a darker side to her personality.

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@earthlink.net

  6. #6
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    The Arrival of the godess Shar

    Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
    > The godess Shar would be perfect as the godess behind the temple of Nasri in Ghamoura. As a godess of darkness, she can be very subtle and before she can fight Nasri in the planes, she would need a presence on Aebrynis.<

    Why not just use Eloele? She, I would think, would fit perfectly with
    your concept of goddess of darkness (at least the way I understand you).

    Cheers,
    Darren

  7. #7
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    The Arrival of the godess Shar

    Gary V. Foss wrote:
    > There is one last option.... maybe alignment should not be taken that
    > seriously. <

    On a tangent, I should think that we can specify this more to the point:
    that a BR Power's alignment and portfolio shouldn't be taken so
    seriously. IMC, the deities of BR are given a much more broader
    personality and a much more humanistic outlook. By that I mean that
    that the BR Powers often act just like regular human mortals would:
    making poor judgement calls (at least in the eyes of mortals), mistakes,
    and swinging from one mood to another - these gods have *passion* for
    their people, as much as for them as for the ideals they stand for.
    And, as everyone knows, when emotions begin to factor into wisdom and
    judgement calls, things are never completely fair or unbiased. BR
    Powers are very much quandaries to their worshippers because of this.

    Thus, I can totally see Haelyn accepting, for instance, LE priests
    without too many problems, because to him its more the concepts that
    people fight for rather than the particular ways in which the goals are
    acheived (within reason, of course). Hence the stress on any *lawful*
    or any good. Thus, I could even see him being the reigning power over a
    extremely individualistic (chaotic) society, because he respects the
    society's desire to live the lifestyle of their own choosing. Of
    course, he, in his infinite wisdom, knows what will eventually (he
    believes) happen when people's desires are given free reign; but, still
    he would not (IMO) shrike from their worship.

    On the same token, Nesirie (IMO): I see herself ruled more by her
    passions rather than her (admittedly godlike) wisdom. For her, she
    needs an outlet for her rage at the great cosmos which has taken her
    beloved people away from Their Mother. Thus, she would undoubtably
    accept worshippers who feel like she does and through them would be able
    to vent her frustration when (as it always does) her emotions get the
    better of her. So, the situation in Ghamoura I can understand being
    within (but admittingly skirting) the boundaries of Nesirie's scope of
    influence and desire to give spells too.

    In cases where whats written doesn't make sense in the various
    supplements (which does bother me, but thats another post) I just go
    with what makes sense. In this case (and because there is a pletheora
    of inconsistancies like this in the BR books) I reworked the rules in
    the BR Power's capsule description for what they were meant to do - to
    help define the God or Goddess rather than give limits to player's and
    DM's imaginations and good story telling.

    Cheers,
    Darren

  8. #8
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    The Arrival of the godess Shar

    Kenneth Gauck wrote:
    > While it should not conflict with the Neserie we have all come to know and love , there is probably room for a darker side to her personality.<

    I agree. Not just with Nesirie, but with all the other 'good' gods as
    well. IMC, Sera is probably just a little *too* practical for most
    peoples taste .... muwuhahahahaaa.

    Remember: there is still a war going on here in Cerilia, one where evil
    refuses to go away - it is relentless! :P IMC, the 'good' gods are
    beginning to realize its going to take more than just good intentions if
    they are ever going to defeat the legacy of Azrai. This calls for
    extreme measures to be taken - like embracing their Dark Side!

    Hee hee. :D

    Cheers,
    Darren (Who is too much a STAR WARS fan to have passed this one up!)

  9. #9

    The Arrival of the godess Shar

    In my Alltyr campaign world (home brew... slowly being 'Birthrightized"), the
    Gods are neither omnipotent or omniscient (SP???) They are not your typical Ao,
    or *gaak* Ceric. IMC, the Gods can only 'talk' with one person at any time.
    They are incapable of siting on their cloud, and overseeing/responding to every
    follower. Thus, the faiths of the mortals begin to differentiate themselves,
    and the sudden question of *why* a God would allow rival (or even 'evil')
    interpretations of their doctrine becomes clear.

    The Gods still gain all the Godly stuff that comes with worship, so why bother
    bombing the bad faiths... the God still gains his powers from them as well as
    the good guys. IMC< the Gods are much more like the Greeks... they have
    emotions. They feel hate, anger, jealousy, and even lust. The main God of
    Justice is rather like Zeus himself... he enjoys bedding mortal females. So, by
    making the Gods a little less 'traditional' (in the Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms
    sense anyway), you in effect, do away with a pantheon full of 'pickles'. :)

    Besides, the new Gods were once mortals themselves... a little of that humanity
    has to remain, and I can't believe that a 2nd hand God would be as powerful as
    the first any way.

    Hey... that raises a question. Were the 'old' Gods (the ones who died at
    Deismaar) even the 'Original' Gods? I mean, what if some "Deismaar like' event
    happened way in the past? (The Wheel turns & ages come & ages go.....)

    ALso, has anyone ever thought of how life began on Aberyniss? Who/what created
    it? How was the earth created? The heavens?

    Morg

    Daniel McSorley wrote:

    >
    > I don't like it. One of the things I like about BR is that there is
    > variety within religions. In our own history, we have the Inquisition as
    > the best example of a good religion doing bad things, and I like it that the
    > gods in BR accept and grant spells to priests of a wide variety of
    > alignments. They also seem to allow the priests to determine their own
    > interpretations of the gods will, for the most part, and this freedom allows
    > a wide variety of groups to appear. I have run an evil cult of Haelyn
    > against my players (that really confused them, heh), and I can easily see a
    > LN or TN follower of Nasri doing just what the group in Ghamoura has done,
    > based on some individual's guess about Nasri's wishes, or even just his own
    > political ambitions.
    > I also don't think this addition would do anything for the Cerilian
    > pantheon. There are evil gods, and god that accept evil worshippers, and
    > that's really enough. Greyhawk and FR have _extremely_ specialized deitys,
    > of everything except the pickle, and I don't think like that, and I don't
    > think BR needs a god to be specifically the lord of cults or whatever.
    >
    > Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu
    >
    > ************************************************** *************************
    > > - --
    "I hate it when my brain stem hurts."
    The New Draftmine Repository:
    http://members.home.net/morgramen/index.html

  10. #10
    Pieter Sleijpen
    Guest

    The Arrival of the godess Shar

    Jim Cooper wrote:
    >
    > Kenneth Gauck wrote:
    > > While it should not conflict with the Neserie we have all come to know and love , there is probably room for a darker side to her personality.<
    >
    > I agree. Not just with Nesirie, but with all the other 'good' gods as
    > well. IMC, Sera is probably just a little *too* practical for most
    > peoples taste .... muwuhahahahaaa.
    >
    > Remember: there is still a war going on here in Cerilia, one where evil
    > refuses to go away - it is relentless! :P IMC, the 'good' gods are
    > beginning to realize its going to take more than just good intentions if
    > they are ever going to defeat the legacy of Azrai. This calls for
    > extreme measures to be taken - like embracing their Dark Side!
    >
    > Hee hee. :D

    I am sorry, with several gods I have no problem at all with a dark side.
    Afterall one of the main villains in my campaign is the Nuridan Temple
    of Sarma. Avani or Haelyn would be perfect for the intollerence shown by
    the temple of Ghamoura. In my opinion the behavior of the priests of
    Ghamoura is diametrically opposed to what Nasri stands for and that
    makes it so difficult for me to accept. I allready created a new temple
    of Nasri in neighboring lands that split of the temple of Ghamoura
    because they could not accept the intollerance.

    A side remark about death, why is this seen as something dark? There are
    a lot of faiths in which death is seen as a fact of life and even more
    were death is a good thing. In death people will forget there sorrows
    and transcend to a better life in whatever they see as heaven. Since
    Nasri is the godess of grief, in my campaign helping people die in peace
    and helping the relatives and friends accept it, is already part of
    their tasks. In my opionon you hardly have to create a new priesthood
    for it...

    Pieter Sleijpen

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