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  1. #1
    Kenneth Gauck
    Guest

    Technological Progression of Ce

    >Daniel McSorley wrote:
    >
    >> Wouldn't the Anuirean fighting have
    >> encouraged technology's advance, if not its rapid spread?
    >


    There was very little technical innovation during the Hundred Years War.

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@earthlink.net

  2. #2
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Technological Progression of Ce

    Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    > >Daniel McSorley wrote:
    > >
    > >> Wouldn't the Anuirean fighting have
    > >> encouraged technology's advance, if not its rapid spread?
    > >
    >
    > There was very little technical innovation during the Hundred Years War.
    >
    > Kenneth Gauck
    > c558382@earthlink.net

    I'm with Kenneth on this matter. Generally, war is considered quite a boon to
    technological advancement, but I would suggest that this is a VERY modern
    association of cultural influences that started around the late 18th or early
    19th centuries. I'd even go so far as to suggest that the association of
    technological advancement with war is a sketchy one based upon largely
    anecdotal evidence and a flawed method of looking at history. If you track
    history by examining wars (which is the traditional method history is taught)
    then it does seem as if war "creates" technological innovation.

    Industrialization has had a huge effect on warfare and technological
    advancement, and I'd argue it is that cultural influence that leads to
    technological advancement both during periods of war and periods of peace. I
    think that is a more apt cause of the rapid technological advancement noted in
    the American Civil War, WWI and WWII, and in the periods in between. Jet
    engines are a good example of this. Jets appeared late in WWII, but the theory
    behind them was largely developed before WWII in the 1920's during the period
    between the Double W's.... (Actually, primitive jet engines were
    invented--like so many other things--over 2,000 years ago by the Greeks.)

    I think one could even make an argument that wars end up slowing technological
    advancement even in the modern era, because the additional effort put into
    applying or developing technology is more than countered by the massive amounts
    of resources, time, effort, lives lost, etc. lost to the war effort.

    Gary

  3. #3
    prtr02@scorpion.nspco.co
    Guest

    Technological Progression of Ce

    - ----- Begin Included Message -----

    Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    > >Daniel McSorley wrote:
    > >
    > >> Wouldn't the Anuirean fighting have
    > >> encouraged technology's advance, if not its rapid spread?
    > >
    >
    > There was very little technical innovation during the Hundred Years War.
    >
    > Kenneth Gauck
    > c558382@earthlink.net

    I'm with Kenneth on this matter. Generally, war is considered quite a boon to
    technological advancement, but I would suggest that this is a VERY modern
    association of cultural influences that started around the late 18th or early
    19th centuries. I'd even go so far as to suggest that the association of
    technological advancement with war is a sketchy one based upon largely
    anecdotal evidence and a flawed method of looking at history. If you track
    history by examining wars (which is the traditional method history is taught)
    then it does seem as if war "creates" technological innovation.

    Industrialization has had a huge effect on warfare and technological
    advancement, and I'd argue it is that cultural influence that leads to
    technological advancement both during periods of war and periods of peace. I
    think that is a more apt cause of the rapid technological advancement noted in
    the American Civil War, WWI and WWII, and in the periods in between. Jet
    engines are a good example of this. Jets appeared late in WWII, but the theory
    behind them was largely developed before WWII in the 1920's during the period
    between the Double W's.... (Actually, primitive jet engines were
    invented--like so many other things--over 2,000 years ago by the Greeks.)

    I think one could even make an argument that wars end up slowing technological
    advancement even in the modern era, because the additional effort put into
    applying or developing technology is more than countered by the massive amounts
    of resources, time, effort, lives lost, etc. lost to the war effort.

    Gary


    - ----- End Included Message -----

    oooo, I usually don't disagree with Ken and Gary on historical matters, but I do here- at least in terms of military technology. Gary is right about tech in
    general. The hundred years war saw important advances in military technology and technique. The longbow rose and fell during during this period (1330s-1450s),
    artillery developed from virtually non-existent to viable field artillery pieces. With the rise of artillery comes the rise of nationalism. Small local lords can no longer afford the large fortifications to stand up to seige bombards and only the great lords (kings,dukes) have the warchest to put together an artillery seige train.

    Randax

  4. #4

    Technological Progression of Ce

    In a message dated 1/8/99 5:49:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
    prtr02@scorpion.nspco.com writes:

    >

    In general I agree that wars probably slow advancement in MOST fields. On
    field that I can assure you that IS advanced more quickly by wars is
    medicine.Having tons of wounded soldiers ta save tends ta lead to inovations
    in surgery, triage, post op care, infection control, ect....
    Course, we never had access to a cure light wounds spell either....
    Blastin

  5. #5
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Technological Progression of Ce

    Blastin@aol.com wrote:

    > In a message dated 1/8/99 5:49:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
    > prtr02@scorpion.nspco.com writes:
    >
    > I think one could even make an argument that wars end up slowing
    > technological
    > advancement even in the modern era, because the additional effort put into
    > applying or developing technology is more than countered by the massive
    > amounts
    > of resources, time, effort, lives lost, etc. lost to the war effort.
    >
    > >>
    >
    > In general I agree that wars probably slow advancement in MOST fields. On
    > field that I can assure you that IS advanced more quickly by wars is
    > medicine.Having tons of wounded soldiers ta save tends ta lead to inovations
    > in surgery, triage, post op care, infection control, ect....
    > Course, we never had access to a cure light wounds spell either....
    > Blastin

    I'll grant that there was a lot of medical knowledge gained from the period of
    the Civil War until WWII, but historically speaking that's really not a lot of
    time. Less than a century, and it was in a period of massive technological
    advancement, so it's kind of hard to point to the wars as being the deciding
    factor in that change. Probably the biggest medical advance that effected WWII,
    for instance, was penicillan. For some strange reason, however, people couple
    the invention of penicillan with the war, when the reality is that it was
    invented in 1928.

    Randall W. Porter@6550 wrote:

    > oooo, I usually don't disagree with Ken and Gary on historical matters, but I
    > do here- at least in terms of military technology. Gary is right about tech
    > in
    > general. The hundred years war saw important advances in military technology
    > and technique. The longbow rose and fell during during this period
    > (1330s-1450s),
    > artillery developed from virtually non-existent to viable field artillery
    > pieces. With the rise of artillery comes the rise of nationalism. Small
    > local lords can no longer afford the large fortifications to stand up to seige
    > bombards and only the great lords (kings,dukes) have the warchest to put
    > together an artillery seige train.

    OK, I'll agree that war is good for the advancement of technology items used IN
    warfare. Longbows and artillery are things that very likely came about because
    of wars.

    I don't know much about the history of archery, but when I used to go bow
    hunting we used recurves rather than long bows. My point is that I don't know
    if the long bow was every anything except a weapon used in war. Does anyone
    know if people actually hunted with them?

    The point in all this, however, is whether the years of conflict in Anuire or
    the militarily aspects of a culture are more likely to lead to more
    technologicaly advancement. My argument is that warfare is not really the
    driving force of technology that it is usually portrayed as being. I would
    suggest that commerce really is. Wars come and go, but people always want to
    make money. They constantly search for new and better ways to make money more
    effectively by crushing their opponents. That's the real driving force of
    technology if you ask me. To paraphrase Von Clauswitz, "War is commerce by
    other means." :-)

    I think this is pretty accurately reflected on Cerilia with the Brecht having
    (arguably) the most advanced technology with Anuireans and the Khinasi behind
    them, followed by the Rjurik and the last the Vos. Other races also have
    similar attitudes towards commerce which I think also parallels their use of
    technology. The dwarves probably have the highest trade potential. Everyone
    wants to trade with dwarves to gain the benefits of their products. They
    probably also have the best technology. Elves have a decidedly untrade like
    attitude, and probably a similarly lax attitude towards technology. Goblins and
    orogs... well, they kill things, though Thurazor has been making some strides.
    Perhaps they have more technology than their hairy backed brethren?

    Gary

  6. #6
    JulesMrshn@aol.co
    Guest

    Technological Progression of Ce

    Frankly I don't see the need for new technology.

    #1 the smart and intuitive ones who would do the developing are
    magicians/wizard/priest orientated fellows or regents who do not have the
    time.
    #2 The bow is an efficetive weapon, more so then any gun they could develop.
    And which would have more effect, a loud pop of guns or the groud erupting
    with flame.

    I really think magic stops all advancements in the feild of weapondry. This is
    not "the time of enlightenment." I think rifle development would be a
    surperflous thing, since it would be ages before anything good came from them
    (I mean look how long it took us without magic). Now cannons.... I can see
    them... but not fireing cannon balls but maybe fire balls... I think the new
    technology of Cerilia would be Magicaly-linked weapons. They would be easier
    to produce and perfect then gun powder. I wuld also like them to be priestly
    weapons not wizard weapons. Faith Weapons of Mass Destruction (the Holy Hand
    Grenade of Antioch)

    I see Cerilia turning into a battlepreist dependant society.

  7. #7
    Binagran
    Guest

    Technological Progression of Ce

    Gary V. Foss wrote:

    > I'll grant that there was a lot of medical knowledge gained from the period of
    > the Civil War until WWII, but historically speaking that's really not a lot of
    > time. Less than a century, and it was in a period of massive technological
    > advancement, so it's kind of hard to point to the wars as being the deciding
    > factor in that change. Probably the biggest medical advance that effected WWII,
    > for instance, was penicillan. For some strange reason, however, people couple
    > the invention of penicillan with the war, when the reality is that it was
    > invented in 1928.

    Let's start getting philosophical.
    As can be assumed the pace of technological advancement has been increasing at an
    ever increasing rate since after the Dark Ages (yeah, it could have been before that
    but we wont get into that). But as a corolary to that advancement is the fact the
    number of wars (of big or small size, long or short duration) has also been
    increasing at an ever increasing rate.

    I guess this begs the question, does technological improvements facilitate war or
    prevent war?

    BTW, why does the list always get into such surreal topics as this (brings back
    memories of the morality debat, but let's not go back there).

    Binagran

  8. #8
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    Technological Progression of Ce

    Okay, I can't stand it any longer, I have to jump in briefly ... I can't
    help it when I can actually use the knowledge I spent thousands of
    dollars on (because my work has nothing to do with my degree!) So
    consequently, you guys have to suffer! :P

    Gary V. Foss wrote:
    > The point in all this, however, is whether the years of conflict in Anuire or the militarily aspects of a culture are more likely to lead to more technologicaly advancement.<

    In the specific case of Anuire I would argue that it would drive their
    culture for three reasons: 1) Warfare is a large portion of the Anuirean
    culture (2) Warfare (like commerce) is all about winning. And to win in
    warfare one either has to a) have superior tactics/troops or (b) have
    superior technology or (C) both (hopefully most societies will strive
    for 'c'). Lastly, (3) Since (IMO) the warrior class predominates in the
    Anuire culture (Haelyn after all - with the clergy giving the military
    social class a good run for its money) where would the majority of
    people go? To where the prestige, power, and & money is of course (ie
    if Soccer was the force that drove a culture, that gave all the best
    jobs to its citizens, paid the most wages, etc., the majority of people
    in that society will grow up to learn some aspect of soccer, right?).

    Thus, I will stake my History Degree on the belief that Anuirean has
    largely (and even directly) benefitted from years of conflict and
    warfare.

    In fact, I would argue that Anuire is (if not already) poised to surpass
    every other culture in Cerilia in technological advancement. Why? --->

    People seem to think:
    > My argument is that warfare is not really the driving force of technology that it is usually portrayed as being.<

    Of course, after 4 years of having this next statement beat indirectly
    into my head by my profs, I must say that nothing is ever absolute when
    it comes to analysing human beings. While I don't say that warfare is
    solely responsible for many technological achievements, neither has it
    been a complete waste, if anything positive could be said about this
    human evil. In fact, nothing ever is the ONLY factor when it comes to
    sociology, history, science, or whatever. Whether directly or
    indirectly, warfare and destruction has been a central force in driving
    human societies around the globe, and nobody should completely dismiss
    outta hand something that has so profoundly affected us to this very
    day. And I believe Cerilian humans wouldn't come out much different
    then we have, mainly because we Earthlings are invisioning them. That's
    another thing I learned in History class - we carry a lot of unconscious
    societal baggage around with us that is hard to elimnate (if at all)
    which affects our perception of the world around us and the things we do
    in our daily lives.

    > I would suggest that commerce really is. Wars come and go, but people always want to make money. They constantly search for new and better ways to make money more effectively by crushing their opponents. That's the real driving force of technology if you ask me. To paraphrase Von Clauswitz, "War is commerce by other means." :-)<

    Funny, I was just going to use that same perception to justify warfare
    being the driving force behind Anuire. When somebody is on your
    doorstep thirsting for your blood, are you going to sit around dreaming
    about new ways to make money (hoping that a mountain of gold will bore
    your bloodthirsty-ready-to-invade-neighbour, or are you going to find
    some way of defending yourself? I don't know about the rest of you, but
    I would first do the latter so that eventually I will be able to do the
    former when no one can threaten me any longer.

    Fortunately for the Brechtur, they have the leisure to do the former
    because they have but a handful of places that really need defending;
    they've got the water covered, so there only real concern are the few
    mountain passes. All the Brecht have to do is wall up those few passes
    and viola, they have nobody bothering them but each other.
    Unfortunately, this is exactly what I see them doing, but the logical
    extension of this is that the Brecht will become complacent in their
    security.

    However, Anuire is a classic example to the opposite. They CAME to this
    contienent on this very principle of advance and expand, divide and
    conqueor. "Man, just look at all that land just WAITING to be
    exploited! Woo Hoo!" Of course, the elves were there first but what's
    that to an expansionistic culture? Oh sure, there is plenty of land
    for everyone, so do a little settling, learn new and interesting ways to
    live in this new land (from the experts who have lived on this land for
    millenia, naturally). Everything is great! Wait a minute ... what do
    you mean we can't cross the river? Why not? We got too many people
    over here - and you pointy ears have got ALLL that land over there!
    Boom!: warfare Now we gotta find new ways of
    beating this new enemy (because the Anuireans are not fighting the same
    old Adurian humans anymore), find better weapons (perhaps iron instead
    of bronze for example, as many people have voiced their visions of
    Anuireans @ time of BoD). Anuireans win because they got numbers,
    better tactics (clerics) and incidently better 'weapons' because
    conflict propelled them to look for new and better ways to maintain
    their culture. The elves lost cause they failed to advance fast enough
    to keep up to the Anuireans.

    A long period of Anuirean expansion follows, as they absorb new lands
    and push out the old established local cultures who can't compete.
    Eventually, they reach the limit of expansion when they encounter the
    other human cultures. And we all know what happens next; Anuire beat
    the panties off of Brechtur and Khinasi cultures. Cultures mix, the
    Anuireans getting the lion share of the benefit as the absorb new ideas
    from the conqueored cultures and bring these ideas *home* - note that
    the reverse wouldn't necessilarly happen, especially if the colony
    culture refused to adapt to their overlord's cultural paradigms and
    mores. I especially believe this holds true in the Khinasi case, to a
    lesser extent in Brechtur.

    If I've lost everyone to this point, here is another example: if
    Vosgaard suddenly took over Brechtur like the Anuireans did 500 years
    ago, who do you think will benefit the most? The Vos of course (only
    if, of course, they deigned to actually settle down and absorb the
    resident Brecht culture's more 'advanced' ideas, ideology, and
    technology. Like what has happened in Koslovnyy - the overlord Vos have
    greatly benefitted from their master/servant relationship with the
    native Khinasi, while the Khinasi there have received little value added
    in return).

    > I think this is pretty accurately reflected on Cerilia with the Brecht having (arguably) the most advanced technology with Anuireans and the Khinasi behind them, followed by the Rjurik and the last the Vos.<

    The problem I see is that Brechtur is too insular to be very effective
    when it comes to technological innovation, as are the other races except
    the Anuireans. Commerce certainly is a motivator in regards to looking
    for new and better ways to make more money - but its not quite as
    immediate as when you are faced with the possibility of extinction that
    warfare makes you answer for.

    Moreover, Brecht are too heavily invested in their pursuit of profit
    (the way I read their culture), to think about setting up establishments
    to learn the more esoteric pursuits like philosophy or medicine (which
    others have already acknowlegded being a great incentive to study when
    the focus comes from warfare), or religion - all which are very
    necessary to a society needing to be inventive. Sure, in the *future*,
    when the Brecht society has created enough wealth that a middle class
    arises and all that entails, then yes, I can see them advancing ahead of
    the other cultures. But the problem is that Anuire will get there (a
    middle class) first ...

    Anuire is much more anal about religion (which leads to theology and new
    ways of thinking about the universe you live in). They are also much
    more interested in finding (or taking from others) better ways to stay
    one step ahead of the seething hordes (or the 'enemy' or 'threat' to
    Anuire, if you like) that live next door. This means getting better
    weapons or magic 'tech' to stay ahead of the 'threat' for continual
    existence. And lastly, Anuire has a seeming cosmopolitan culture (I can
    see varied and more of the other races & cultures in Anuire than in, say
    Brechtur).

    After all, Anuire has: the College of Sorcery (the greatest single
    location for learning, IMO, with the exception of the Temple of Rilni in
    Khinasi); the Head Temple of the Greatest Faith in Cerilia (Haelyn -
    which I believe has, in terms of temple levels, the most of any god.
    And to boot, the Anuireans are His People); the Imperial City itself
    (which is a cultural mecca for all the races of Cerilia); not to mention
    Haelyn knows how many other Imperial Wonders; an extensive agricultural
    base with access to plentiful and varied resources (Brechtur has
    mountains or water - take your pick; Khinasi has desert or water - take
    your pick; Rjurik has trees, fish or water - tack your pick; Vos has ...
    well they've just got water, solid or liquid, but mostly solid, which is
    a bummer for tech advancement - just ask the Inuit. :P).

    Other races also have similar attitudes towards commerce which I
    think also parallels their use of technology. The dwarves probably have
    the highest trade potential. Everyone wants to trade with dwarves to
    gain the benefits of their products. They> probably also have the best
    technology. Elves have a decidedly untrade like attitude, and probably
    a similarly lax attitude towards technology.<

    Even here, I would say dwarves are the extreme example of what Brecthur
    could be. The dwarves (IMO) are even MORE insular than any of the other
    races (except elves - and they don't advance much). Societal
    advancement comes much from new ideas being able to spread to enough
    brains in the hopes that one of those brains is the lucky one who knows
    how to take those new ideas and make them reality. Being an insular
    society doesn't help much with the spread of new ideas (just take a look
    at everybody's favourite 20th century technological success story -
    Japan (that's my specialty in History!) I'm not saying the Japanese were
    culturally stagnant, but its a good popular analogy that I think
    everyone will instantly grasp).

    > Goblins and orogs... well, they kill things, though Thurazor has been making some strides.
    > Perhaps they have more technology than their hairy backed brethren?>

    Actually, I think goblins have gotten the short stick in again. I've
    been toying with (or wouldn't mind seeing) the idea of making the
    goblins & orogs a little more advanced than the vast majority of people
    perceive them to be ... almost advanced as dwarves ... hmmm ... I see
    great potential (and would make them much more nasty and evil baddies)
    if they were cunning and intelligent rather than bestial and crude ...

    Anyway, to sum up: No direspect to Mr. Von C's little phrase there, but
    I don't think that "War is commerce by other means". IMO, commerce is
    just another form of warfare! :D

    Convince me its the other way around I dare you! :P

    Cheers,
    Darren

  9. #9
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    Technological Progression of Ce

    One Lister spake:
    >Frankly I don't see the need for new technology.<

    Actually, I would disagree with this statement. For starters, I LOVE
    that BR is technologically orientated. That's part of what
    distinguishes it from any of the other TSR milieus. Two, because of the
    background material already given us, it is practically inevitable that
    a least *one* of the cultures of Cerilia would strive ahead
    technologically. Any one of them *has* to just to stay ahead in this
    awnsheghlein invested, elf ridden land!

    > #1 the smart and intuitive ones who would do the developing are
    > magicians/wizard/priest orientated fellows or regents who do not have the time.<

    Why is it magicians and priests are always the ones doing the
    inventing?!? Warriors have INT stats too! For starters, as a Regent,
    (who is a warrior), why would I beholden myself to someone whom I can't
    even begin to understand of their power - such power in a single
    person's hand would (or should) frighten any intelligent warrior. Like
    the teeps in Babylon 5, I have never understood why wizards are so
    widely accepted! In BR I would have expected things to be different, but
    no luck. Anyway, I've naturally changed the rules ...

    In short, if I was playing a fighter regent I wouldn't be shy about
    using the Research action at all, even as one of my own actions (at the
    very least, I would commmand my senior artillerist, for example, to get
    cracking on new & better seige engines - gun powder anyone!?! :P).

    > #2 The bow is an efficetive weapon, more so then any gun they could develop. And which would have more effect, a loud pop of guns or the groud erupting with flame.<

    Except for 500 years down the road, those bombards are now very new
    cannons booming out 20 pound cannonballs through things. Believe me,
    flames can be put out, but cannonballs can't be stopped very easily.
    Eventually, you start adding artillery to the picture and warfare
    changes completely ...

    > I really think magic stops all advancements in the feild of weapondry. This is not "the time of enlightenment." I think rifle development would be a surperflous thing, since it would be ages before anything good came from them (I mean look how long it took us without magic).<

    Except for the VAST majority of unblooded, unwashed people even early
    firearms would be a HUGE improvement over anything they have had before.
    10000 musketeers vs. 1 fire-ball shooting wizard - who is going to win
    this stand off? Not only that, but its such a great improvement within
    their simple daily lives, if only that it makes hunting much easier!
    Which would a peasant choose - a wizard's fireball scroll, or a musket?

    > I see Cerilia turning into a battlepreist dependant society.<

    Really? I can only see priests of any level (who can actually cast even
    ONE spell) being very small - on the order of maybe 10,000 to 1.
    Unless, BR became another FR, than I will stand corrected ...

    NOT! :D

    (In fact, I would stop buying BR at that point, just like I did AD&D
    stuff when FR came out).

    Man - who started this "Gunpowder is taboo in AD&D" taboo, anyway? I
    don't believe it was Gygax, 'cause I remember all those tables in the
    first AD&D DM guide that had conversions into Boot Hill, Gamma World,
    Top Secret ...

    Cheers,
    Darren

  10. #10
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    Technological Progression of Ce

    Binagran wrote:
    > I guess this begs the question, does technological improvements facilitate war or prevent war?<

    Neither - humans do. Unfortunately. :(

    > BTW, why does the list always get into such surreal topics as this (brings back memories of the morality debat, but let's not go back there).<

    Usually, but what else is there to talk about?!? This is the fun part
    of mailing lists! :D

    Cheers,
    Darren

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