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Thread: Cultural Progression of Cerilia
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12-24-1998, 07:20 AM #1Daniel McSorleyGuest
Cultural Progression of Cerilia
From: Tim Nutting
>I pictured Diesmaar as being early medieval (c 800 AD - Europe), with the
>previous half millennia being sort of a dark age (The 500 years predating
>the 3 year War of Shadow).
>
Hmm, like I said, my picture was of an iron-age group, at least for the
Anuireans (I haven't really thought of any of the others), because of the
apparent importance of the Tribes, and the houses of the Andu, so I was
picturing the Visigoths and other tribes at the time of the Romans, with the
Adurians maybe being the Romans.
>After Diesmaar, things got chaotic for a few years, and then calmed down.
>Reole builds the Empire, and it advances to early renaissance by mid 800
HC.
I wasn't picturing renaissance here, so much as a mid medieval period,
perhaps along the lines of France in the 12th or 13th century (? I think
that's the example I want).
>Fall of Empire occurs, more dark age, and some recession, so Anuire, at
>least in my mindset, is just now reaching the stages is might have been at
>the height of empire technologically, but certainly not culturally (too
fractured).
>
I agree with the period of dark ages here again. However, I think Anuire
has advanced beyond the fall. The Brechts and Khinasi, once freed of their
Anuirean overlords, were able to advance culturally, both by themselves and
with cultural interplay between them, and this filtered back to Anuire. So
the Brechts are a little ahead of Anuire, into the Renaissance I mean, while
the Khinasi are a little behind, because they had farther to go, culturally
at least. Technologically, I'd say they (Anuireans, everybody) are more
advanced for sure, the crossbows for one, and the fencing styles of the
Brechts (not to mention the g word) argue for a lot of technological
advancement since the fall of the Empire (Depending on how advanced you
think the empire was before it fell). Wouldn't the Anuirean fighting have
encouraged technology's advance, if not its rapid spread?
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu
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12-24-1998, 09:34 AM #2Pieter SleijpenGuest
Cultural Progression of Cerilia
Daniel McSorley wrote:
> I agree with the period of dark ages here again. However, I think Anuire
> has advanced beyond the fall. The Brechts and Khinasi, once freed of their
> Anuirean overlords, were able to advance culturally, both by themselves and
> with cultural interplay between them, and this filtered back to Anuire. So
> the Brechts are a little ahead of Anuire, into the Renaissance I mean, while
> the Khinasi are a little behind, because they had farther to go,
> culturally at least.
How can one be behind 'culturally', you know that this is a very
dangerous thing to say?
> Technologically, I'd say they (Anuireans, everybody) are more
> advanced for sure, the crossbows for one, and the fencing styles of
> the Brechts (not to mention the g word) argue for a lot of
> technological advancement since the fall of the Empire (Depending on
> how advanced you think the empire was before it fell). Wouldn't the
> Anuirean fighting have encouraged technology's advance, if not its
> rapid spread?
>
Aren't the Khinasi more advanced then the Anuireans? They are better
sailers (their ships are faster and seaworthier then the Anuirean
versions), value sience and art way above war. Just read the Khourane
book, the state even supports public schools and every Khinasi is
supposed to be able to read/write. There are even universities and while
they cost money, I did not get the impression they were that expansive.
The Khinasi also lack any of the normal prejudices against magic, even
the Anuireans are not that open minded about magic (though the Five
Oaths might help). I always compared the Khinasi with the RL Arabians of
the 11th century. At time they were far ahead of the Europeans.
For short I can not believe the Khinasi are a little behind.
As for the crossbows, the Brechts use them as well. As for other
apparent differences in weapon technology, that is to my opinion because
of different styles. The Khinasi favor speed, wearing plate mail and
loading crossbows is rather difficult on the back of horse. Not to
mention that a person would cook in a plate mail. The Brechts are
seamen, wearing heavy armor on a ship is not a very good idea (as one of
my players found out the hard way).
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12-24-1998, 02:00 PM #3OlesensGuest
Cultural Progression of Cerilia
Daniel McSorley wrote:
> Wouldn't the Anuirean fighting have
> encouraged technology's advance, if not its rapid spread?
I'll agree that it did encourage some advancement. To compare to earth, World
War One was cause for a lot of advancement in surgery, most notably brain surgry
(Mostly from the artilery, it's shrapnel was a few large pieces and they'd fly
around and carve out body parts. They changed the design in WW2 to create lots
of smaller pieces). WW2 also sped up the creation of nuclear weapons,
submarienes, and airplanes (the Germans had a jet fighter by the very end of the
war). But also remember that those are continuous wars and Anuire was involved
in several shorter skirmishes (by comparison at least). But at 551 MR, there
doesn't seem much more advancement possible other than guns. They're reached
the high age of full plate knights and then went on to pikes and bows. If
gunpowder doesn't exsist in BR (or any low-magic early-ressisance world for that
matter), we don't know were weapons will go. On Earth, our advancement of
pointy things to kill each other with was halted in the resissance and guns
picked up where the pointy things left off. Also remember that a lot of
technological advance is based on need. A curious culture will be more likely
to pursure the sciences while a culture constantly at war will follow
militaristic advancements.
- -Andrew
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12-24-1998, 06:50 PM #4Daniel McSorleyGuest
Cultural Progression of Cerilia
From: Pieter Sleijpen
>How can one be behind 'culturally', you know that this is a very
>dangerous thing to say?
>
My mistake: I was remembering that the Brechts, Anuireans, elves and
dwarves were at a Renaissance culture, and my memory for some reason stuck
the Khinasi in with the Rjurik, in a Middle Ages culture, when this was not
the case.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu
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12-25-1998, 08:19 AM #5Kenneth GauckGuest
Cultural Progression of Cerilia
There are many markers of the various periods which can be used. Technology
normally means weapons in BR, but that need not be all. As for cultural
markers of the Renaissance, one might point to a revival of "classical"
styles; Imperial in Anuire and Maestian in Khinasi, for example.
Perspective drawing, stage theater, Imperial law (which was historically a
big hit irregardless of where the Empire extended, because of its
orderliness, the Romans being good legislators, perhaps this trait extends
to Anuire as well) all could be markers of a cultural renaissance.
In Baruk-Azhik I signaled new innovations in sculpture (it was consciously
more life-like), poetry (derived from chanting, a traditional dwarven art
form emphasizing rhythm, but now influenced by elven concepts of melody),
theater (performance are was formerly limited to tumbling, chanting, or
resitation), and new styles of dress (the vest and tunic were comming back
into vogue, replacing trowsers and shirt). Players and NPC's could
associate themselves with the new ideas, or the traditional by these
markers.
Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net
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12-28-1998, 08:15 AM #6Tim NuttingGuest
Cultural Progression of Cerilia
I like that idea, Ken. It's something we see as the years progress in the
real world, and then just completely miss in gaming.
Still, I see the Adurians as being the "Romans" of Aebyrnis. Very
expansive, very militaristic (their god wished to conquer all known
creation), and rather advanced.
I think that in the ancient history of the world we would find something
akin to Rome's expansion into Gaulish lands, perhaps about -2000 HC or some
other equally distant number. (Remember that humans came to Cerilia
about -350 HC, some over 250 years earlier, this had been going on for many
years.)
Still, by the time the Andu had reached Cerilia, they were still tribal,
and had probably been forced to learn new armor and weapons or face
extinction/assimilation at the hands of the Adurians.
To my mind, though Anuire is classed as a Renaissance culture in the books,
I extend that only to technology. They are "behind" the Brechts in that
they still stick to a relatively immobile social hierarchy (which the
brecths must as well, to a lesser extent - only blood rules the lands), and
yet I think that the Brechts have a more "refined" culture. Their ideas
tend to be more complex, and thinking men and women are more encouraged.
In certain circles of Khinasi this is the same. Ariya, for instance, is
definitely in what amounts to a Renaissance, though more along the lines of
a Middle Eastern culture than "traditional" western culture, while Binsada
is quite behind the times, and still very nomadic.
Better or worse? Well that depends on where you started at, right?
later
Tim Nutting
zero@wiredweb.com
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12-30-1998, 06:11 PM #7
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Cultural Progression of Cerilia
OK, a little slow on the draw here.....
How hard would it be for the Brechts to build cannon for their ships? I am
picturing here very crude boom sticks, rather large, heavy, expensive, and
probably not all that accurate. (I remember reading something about this a
while back, but can't recall if it ever got solved.)
I know precious little of weaponry & technological advancements etc., but
really, how long would it take a culture to evolve from a rickety old black
powder rifle the size of a Canadian moose to a smaller, more compact and
reliable version? How long until someone decides to put this new magic on a
ship and shoot some pirates? Also, would a mortar be developed before a
cannon? If the Brechts create a cannon or flint lock, then how long until
other cultures begin to show signs of adopting and modifying the technology?
Wouldn't the actual design & reliability of the weapon be quickly upgraded once
the initial technology was discovered? Talking in terms of Domain turns (4 a
year), it is conceivable that a single campaign could easily see 2 or three
generations of regents, and thus, this development could, would & should be
easy to identify.
"I remember back in the old days when we had to fire arrows against the wind
from atop the mizzen (sp?) mast, in the dark, with nothing but the lightning
cracks to see by!"
I don't really want to start the guns thread again, but I have been using gun
powder in my (non BR) game for several years now. It has not seriously
unbalanced the game in any way. In fact, the gun wielding players seldom get
more than one or two shots off before combat anyway, and all's it really serves
to accomplish is to add a bit of spice and a feeling of impending advancement
in the game.
In Warhammer, the Empire has some pretty wacky technology, blended in with
magic. Now, obviously not BR flavoured, I think the system is, over all, well
done. It allows for ships cannon to be fired right alongside a fireball.
Truth to tell, the fireball probably does more damage, but heh, we all got
cannons on our boats! I should think that the technological advances would be
merged & blended with the magic (at least initially), similar to what is done
in the Warhammer game. You probably won't see a flying dwarf gyrocopter
anytime soon in Cerilia, but you can come up with some pretty weird stuff. Why
wouldn't the wizard regent take the gun and fuse some of his magical talents
with the device?
Happy New Year!
Keith
- --
"I hate it when my brain stem hurts."
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