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12-13-1998, 04:03 PM #1Gary V. FossGuest
This kind of topic has probably come up before, but I was just wondering
what you guys thought a BR war card unit is comprised of. That is, how
many creatures, what AC, hits, melee rating, etc.
Normal units, of course, are 200 creatures, but there are certain war
cards that are exceptional. The Magian's riders, for instance, are only
a few high level creatures.
I'm thinking that a unit is really comprised of between 200 and 400 HD
of creatures. Twenty hill giants, for instance, could be a war card
unit. The HD of mounts should count as about 1/2 for the purposes of
determining a unit, so the horses of cavalry and knights still fits in
As for determining hits, melee values, etc. I have no idea.... If there
was a formula, however, it would make for an easier method of
translating units into standard AD&D terms and vice versa making the
presence of exceptional creatures/characters on the battlefield much
easier to work into the process. Ideas?
12-13-1998, 06:08 PM #2Kenneth GauckGuest
On December 13, 1998 10:19 AM, Gary V. Foss wrote:
>As for determining hits, melee values, etc. ...
Keep in mind that factors which normal AD&D stats don't normally consider
effect the performance of a unit.
1) Creatures that fight together, in coordination, are more effective than
those who do not. There are defensive technieques (shield wall, wall of
pole arms) as well as offensive ones that effect the raw numbers. In
addition to examining the HD and THAC0's of the soldiers, ask "how well do
they fight together?"
2) Consider the staying power of the a unit. 200 HD of Ogres will stand up
to the loss of 50% of thier hit points much better than 200 HD of Kobolds.
Most or all of the ogres would still be out there doing full damage, though
bloodied and brusied. As much of a third of the Kobolds would be dead, and
another third weak and prone to flight. (No wonder no one used Kobalds for
Something the warcards does not address directly is what the casualties mean
in terms of its members. In the real world we know that battle casualties
varied between 20% and 33% (winners on the low side, losers on the high
side). Troops don't fight to the last man. At the company level (one war
card unit) casualties for a destroyed unit that had a means of escape should
be 50%, not 100%. Of course special circumstances do provide explanation
for the occasional total defeat. Being cornered against a river too deep
and wide to cross is the most common. Pursuit by lighter forces (cavalry,
irregulars, and scouts) is another in cases where the victor held light
troops fresh in reserve.
12-13-1998, 06:43 PM #3Craig GreesonGuest
This topic was covered in Dragon Magazine Annual Vol. 2, in an article titled "Cry Havoc". The article was written to
allow conversion from War Cards to the AD&D Battlesystem rules and vice versa. It makes the following assumptions:
- - Regular troops are treated as 1st level (even though they're typically 0-level, it's done for simplicity's sake) and
elite units are considered 3rd level.
- - Monsters/special units would be considerd the appropriate level/hit dice for individuals.
- - Each War Card "hit" of a unit equals 100 hit dice of creatures. Thus, a 2 hit unit of irregulars would be assumed to
have 200 hit dice (200 level 0 troops). A 3 hit unit of knights would have approximately 100 3rd level troops. 100
troops each at 3rd level would give you a total of 300 hit dice.
- - Vos and Rjurik units are treated as 2nd level, giving equivalent units from these cultures more hits per War Card than
an Anuirean/Brecht/Khinasi unit. This is because the warriors from the Rjurik/Vos cultures are considered to be more
proficient by the author.
The same system would also be used for monsters. If a unit of giants was determined to have 3 War Card "hits", and the
giants averaged 15 HD each, then there would be 20 giants in the unit (20 giants X 15 HD each = 300 hits).
With regards to melee, the system takes the damage the unit does in BattleSystem and provides the following table. I've
always assumed the Battlesystem AD value and the AD&D damage die used for a given weapon are pretty much the same.
Don't know if that's right or wrong, however:
Battlesystem AD War Cards Melee
1d4 dmg. Melee value 1
1d6 dmg. Melee value 2
1d8 dmg. Melee value 3
1d10 dmg. Melee value 4
1d12 dmg. Melee value 5
2d8 dmg. Melee value 6
2d10 dmg. Melee value 7
2d12 dmg. Melee value 8
Charging units add 1 to their Melee value to determine their Charge value.
For missile values, the following table was used:
BattleSystem AD War Cards Missile
1d4 dmg. Missile value 1
1d6 " 2
2d6 " 3 (this would be appropriate for units with short bows)
1d8 or 2d6 " 4 (this would be appropriate for units with long bows)
d10 or d12 " 5
2d8 " 6
2d10 " 7
2d12 " 8
I'm not as clear on how the War Cards Defense value, the BattleSystem AR value, and the normal AD&D Armor Class value
correspond to each other. I get the impression BattleSystem AR and AD&D Armor Class are not the same values, but I
could be wrong. Maybe someone else could explain this? The chart given in the article was as follows:
War Cards Defense BattleSystem AR
Hope that helps a bit.
Gary V. Foss wrote:
> This kind of topic has probably come up before, but I was just wondering
> what you guys thought a BR war card unit is comprised of. That is, how
> many creatures, what AC, hits, melee rating, etc.
> Normal units, of course, are 200 creatures, but there are certain war
> cards that are exceptional. The Magian's riders, for instance, are only
> a few high level creatures.
> I'm thinking that a unit is really comprised of between 200 and 400 HD
> of creatures. Twenty hill giants, for instance, could be a war card
> unit. The HD of mounts should count as about 1/2 for the purposes of
> determining a unit, so the horses of cavalry and knights still fits in
> this formula.
> As for determining hits, melee values, etc. I have no idea.... If there
> was a formula, however, it would make for an easier method of
> translating units into standard AD&D terms and vice versa making the
> presence of exceptional creatures/characters on the battlefield much
> easier to work into the process. Ideas?
> ************************************************** *************************
> > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
12-14-1998, 10:31 AM #4Pieter SleijpenGuest
No, AR and armor class are not the same and neither is de attack dice
from both systems. This is because THAC0 also is calculated in the
attack dice of Battlesystem. As for AR, AR is a save with a d10, if you
role equal or higher it prevents 1 hit. Since the Battlesystem rules
give a methode of calculating Battlesystem units from normal AD&D
numbers, you could do it the other way round...
In Battlesystem there are rules for shieldwalls, pikes, skirmishers,
irregulars and so on. I also want to note that massive kobold troops are
quite effective against a small unit of berserkers with the same point
value. Simply because they run over the berserkers, before the
berserkers can do anything. I have seen it happen...
12-15-1998, 12:52 AM #5Tim NuttingGuest
So, with all these conversions for BS, does anyone know an online store or
something that might have one? I swear it's been forever since I've seen a
copy, and the only one a friend had didn't have a rule book.
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