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Thread: Smuggling
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11-30-1998, 08:49 AM #11Gary V. FossGuest
Smuggling
Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gary V. Foss
> Date: Saturday, November 28, 1998 4:21 PM
>
> >I think a regent pretty much knows everything that goes on in his domain on
> the
> >level of domain actions, except those things that the rules specifically say
> or
> >imply are secret. If someone creates a guild or temple holding, agitates, or
>
> >starts trade route in a province, all the regents in the province(s) involved
>
> >know about it.
>
> My assumption is the opposite, that Regents only know what they, or their
> agents witness. Further I assume that PC's are not aware of the various
> levels of holdings or characters. Those are IMO game mechanics, and players
> should be left to wonder exactly how much power other regents have in their
> realm.
Golly, gosh, Kenneth... you and I disagree on something! Wow! ;-)
My take on the activities of regents is that because of the nature of regency
and RPs every regent in a province is probably going to know about every other
regent's activities. How else could they contribute RPs to increase or decrease
the chance of success of an action by another regent if they didn't know about
it? How could they support that chance of success with their own holding levels
if they don't know about it? (Rival guilds and law holders in the province are
able to oppose a Trade Route action. I think temple regents would also know
about other regent's activities for reasons to follow.)
It also says in the description of the Trade Route domain action that "[t]rade
routes are neutralized if the regent's guild holding in either province is
contested, if one of the host provinces is conquered in war, or if the ruler of
the host province chooses to suppress it by decree" which kind of supports the
idea that a province ruler has the medieval equivalent of veto power when it
comes to trade routes. If a province ruler can neutralize a trade route by
decree I think it follows that he could tax one just as easily. Give up the
money, he would decree, or I will just decree your trade route out of existence.
Aside from those issues there are the physical requirements of a trade route.
That is, it requires a road (and I would assume means caravans) or ships to
operate. These things would imply that lots of people are employed by a trade
route which makes it rather more difficult for it to be secret. Also, keeping
roads and sea lanes free from bandits and pirates is often considered the
responsibility of the local ruler. It seems like soldiers patrolling a road
would notice the line of wagons bearing trade goods and at least report the
sighting to their superiors. Similarly warships would investigate and maybe
even escort trading ships to keep them safe.
As for holding levels, I think regents would also be pretty much aware of what
levels other regents in their provinces might hold. The actual level numbers,
of course, are just a gaming effect, but the rules give pretty good guidelines
for what those levels represent in actual numbers of personnel and property. A
regent could count up the number of temples of various sizes in his realm and
get a pretty good idea what level the temple holdings were in his domain. Just
about any regent in a province could employ similar methods to note the
activities of guilders, law holders, etc.
Keeping track of source holdings is much more difficult to justify without the
"mystical tie to the land" explanation. That explanation is all it takes for
me, but if one needs more of an justification then I think a regent could pretty
easily infer what the source level available to a mage might be based upon the
population of a province.
> >IMC, trade routes are also amazingly easy to tax, requiring only
> >a Decree action. I figure the merchants on a trade route have to pass
> through
> >city gates, dock at the city docks, unload cargo in the Merchant district,
> >exchange currency at the money changer, etc. All of these activities are
> pretty
> >easily regulated by the province ruler, making a trade route very easy to
> tax.
> >The money is deducted automatically because I think the GBs taxed are
> >representative of dozens of smaller taxes and charges.
>
> Again I am 180 degrees different in my assumptions. I think the petty
> taxes, tolls, and fees are collected by local governments, and never are
> part of the realm's treasury. That merchants, caravans, and fairs would
> move to avoid taxation. Given that trade routes require a change in terrain
> or culture, it only goes to suggest that if there are obtacles in place in
> one location, sell the goods somewhere else.
What? You disagree with me again?!? Twice in one email. We really must
consult Guinness.... (I mean the beer, not the record keeper guys. Who cares
what they think?)
I don't think I fully understand your argument here.... I think you mean that
trade routes would naturally shift from one area to another area if a regent
were to raise taxes because of the mobile nature of the people on the trade
route. I'm not sure I understand how the terrain/culture requirements suggest
that they would change the location that they sell their goods. Please excuse
me if I got your argument wrong, but I'm going to go with that to make my
argument.
Trade routes would appear to be mobile by their nature, but they are not
really. Rather, the traders on the trade routes are. The routes themselves,
however, are a little less mobile. They require roads or docks. Trade routes
in BR terms also require guild holdings. Goods are delivered to/from those
guild holdings. Even those trade routes (Exploratory Trade and Sea Trade Routes
to "parts unknown") required a starting guild holding from which they are
based. Guild holdings are not at all mobile and limit the freedom of trade
routes considerably.
In addition, trade routes are probably not just a single load of goods that can
be turned aside at a moment's notice. The goods are transported on ships or
wagons and the people on those wagons can just pick up an take them somewhere
else if they find their are being heavily taxed, but the trade route itself is
something quite different from a single cargo. Trade routes collect their
revenue on a domain turn basis. That's three months of time. Who can say how
many shiploads of goods are represented by a trade route? In a domain round I
would think there would have to be several shipments of goods. If trade routes
represent a large amount of goods (and I think they do) it is less likely that
they could simply shift their points of departure and arrival as easily as you
suggest.
> Further, customs officials
> are expensive. Why would a regent with a customs apparatus pay the same
> maintenance as a ruler who does not have such administrative obligations?
I think the pay of customs officials is one of the many things deducted from the
revenue generated by the trade route before a regent ever sees it. That is, if
a regent collects 4GB from a trade route the salaries of the people who oversaw
the trade route (the drivers, loaders, clerks, sailors, etc.) have already been
deducted from the "profit" generated by it in the same way that the hundreds of
faceless workers in a guild have already had their pay deducted from the total
given to the regent during the Taxation, Collection, and Trade portion of the
domain turn.
With the exception of troops, the regent is not required to pay the salaries of
the people under him, so why do it in the case of trade routes? A few more
petty bureaucrats more or less is not something I want to spend a lot of time
worrying about. (My take on Domain Maintenance costs is a little different. I
think those are the costs for maintaining the buildings, equipment, etc. of a
holding or province. Salaries are not included in that. Otherwise Domain
Maintenance would be quite a bit higher than 5 GB for controlling as many as 30
provinces and holdings.)
> I have stated before that I believe all trade routes employ smuggling.
Hmm. Well, then you have no need for the Smuggling domain action, I guess....
Let me ask you, though, if all trade routes employ smuggling why do the rules
require a Diplomacy action for regents to begin trade routes that cross
borders? If one is going to smuggle one rarely asks the ruler of the land one
is smuggling into or out of for permission. That's the point in smuggling--that
they don't know you are doing it.
Gary
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12-01-1998, 12:57 AM #12
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Smuggling
In a message dated 98-11-29 20:18:20 EST, you write:
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12-01-1998, 10:53 PM #13Mark A VandermeulenGuest
Smuggling
On Fri, 27 Nov 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:
> Here's a domain action I came up with. What do you guys think?
>
> Gary
I should point out that I have already created some rules for a smuggling
trade route in my "Create Covert Holding" domain action which is available
in the BR Netbook. You might want to take a look at that for comparison's
sake (it's a fairly long piece, and the smuggling's near the end, so it'll
take some work to find it).
Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu
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