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Thread: Smuggling

  1. #11
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Smuggling

    Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Gary V. Foss
    > Date: Saturday, November 28, 1998 4:21 PM
    >
    > >I think a regent pretty much knows everything that goes on in his domain on
    > the
    > >level of domain actions, except those things that the rules specifically say
    > or
    > >imply are secret. If someone creates a guild or temple holding, agitates, or
    >
    > >starts trade route in a province, all the regents in the province(s) involved
    >
    > >know about it.
    >
    > My assumption is the opposite, that Regents only know what they, or their
    > agents witness. Further I assume that PC's are not aware of the various
    > levels of holdings or characters. Those are IMO game mechanics, and players
    > should be left to wonder exactly how much power other regents have in their
    > realm.

    Golly, gosh, Kenneth... you and I disagree on something! Wow! ;-)

    My take on the activities of regents is that because of the nature of regency
    and RPs every regent in a province is probably going to know about every other
    regent's activities. How else could they contribute RPs to increase or decrease
    the chance of success of an action by another regent if they didn't know about
    it? How could they support that chance of success with their own holding levels
    if they don't know about it? (Rival guilds and law holders in the province are
    able to oppose a Trade Route action. I think temple regents would also know
    about other regent's activities for reasons to follow.)

    It also says in the description of the Trade Route domain action that "[t]rade
    routes are neutralized if the regent's guild holding in either province is
    contested, if one of the host provinces is conquered in war, or if the ruler of
    the host province chooses to suppress it by decree" which kind of supports the
    idea that a province ruler has the medieval equivalent of veto power when it
    comes to trade routes. If a province ruler can neutralize a trade route by
    decree I think it follows that he could tax one just as easily. Give up the
    money, he would decree, or I will just decree your trade route out of existence.

    Aside from those issues there are the physical requirements of a trade route.
    That is, it requires a road (and I would assume means caravans) or ships to
    operate. These things would imply that lots of people are employed by a trade
    route which makes it rather more difficult for it to be secret. Also, keeping
    roads and sea lanes free from bandits and pirates is often considered the
    responsibility of the local ruler. It seems like soldiers patrolling a road
    would notice the line of wagons bearing trade goods and at least report the
    sighting to their superiors. Similarly warships would investigate and maybe
    even escort trading ships to keep them safe.

    As for holding levels, I think regents would also be pretty much aware of what
    levels other regents in their provinces might hold. The actual level numbers,
    of course, are just a gaming effect, but the rules give pretty good guidelines
    for what those levels represent in actual numbers of personnel and property. A
    regent could count up the number of temples of various sizes in his realm and
    get a pretty good idea what level the temple holdings were in his domain. Just
    about any regent in a province could employ similar methods to note the
    activities of guilders, law holders, etc.

    Keeping track of source holdings is much more difficult to justify without the
    "mystical tie to the land" explanation. That explanation is all it takes for
    me, but if one needs more of an justification then I think a regent could pretty
    easily infer what the source level available to a mage might be based upon the
    population of a province.

    > >IMC, trade routes are also amazingly easy to tax, requiring only
    > >a Decree action. I figure the merchants on a trade route have to pass
    > through
    > >city gates, dock at the city docks, unload cargo in the Merchant district,
    > >exchange currency at the money changer, etc. All of these activities are
    > pretty
    > >easily regulated by the province ruler, making a trade route very easy to
    > tax.
    > >The money is deducted automatically because I think the GBs taxed are
    > >representative of dozens of smaller taxes and charges.
    >
    > Again I am 180 degrees different in my assumptions. I think the petty
    > taxes, tolls, and fees are collected by local governments, and never are
    > part of the realm's treasury. That merchants, caravans, and fairs would
    > move to avoid taxation. Given that trade routes require a change in terrain
    > or culture, it only goes to suggest that if there are obtacles in place in
    > one location, sell the goods somewhere else.

    What? You disagree with me again?!? Twice in one email. We really must
    consult Guinness.... (I mean the beer, not the record keeper guys. Who cares
    what they think?)

    I don't think I fully understand your argument here.... I think you mean that
    trade routes would naturally shift from one area to another area if a regent
    were to raise taxes because of the mobile nature of the people on the trade
    route. I'm not sure I understand how the terrain/culture requirements suggest
    that they would change the location that they sell their goods. Please excuse
    me if I got your argument wrong, but I'm going to go with that to make my
    argument.

    Trade routes would appear to be mobile by their nature, but they are not
    really. Rather, the traders on the trade routes are. The routes themselves,
    however, are a little less mobile. They require roads or docks. Trade routes
    in BR terms also require guild holdings. Goods are delivered to/from those
    guild holdings. Even those trade routes (Exploratory Trade and Sea Trade Routes
    to "parts unknown") required a starting guild holding from which they are
    based. Guild holdings are not at all mobile and limit the freedom of trade
    routes considerably.

    In addition, trade routes are probably not just a single load of goods that can
    be turned aside at a moment's notice. The goods are transported on ships or
    wagons and the people on those wagons can just pick up an take them somewhere
    else if they find their are being heavily taxed, but the trade route itself is
    something quite different from a single cargo. Trade routes collect their
    revenue on a domain turn basis. That's three months of time. Who can say how
    many shiploads of goods are represented by a trade route? In a domain round I
    would think there would have to be several shipments of goods. If trade routes
    represent a large amount of goods (and I think they do) it is less likely that
    they could simply shift their points of departure and arrival as easily as you
    suggest.

    > Further, customs officials
    > are expensive. Why would a regent with a customs apparatus pay the same
    > maintenance as a ruler who does not have such administrative obligations?

    I think the pay of customs officials is one of the many things deducted from the
    revenue generated by the trade route before a regent ever sees it. That is, if
    a regent collects 4GB from a trade route the salaries of the people who oversaw
    the trade route (the drivers, loaders, clerks, sailors, etc.) have already been
    deducted from the "profit" generated by it in the same way that the hundreds of
    faceless workers in a guild have already had their pay deducted from the total
    given to the regent during the Taxation, Collection, and Trade portion of the
    domain turn.

    With the exception of troops, the regent is not required to pay the salaries of
    the people under him, so why do it in the case of trade routes? A few more
    petty bureaucrats more or less is not something I want to spend a lot of time
    worrying about. (My take on Domain Maintenance costs is a little different. I
    think those are the costs for maintaining the buildings, equipment, etc. of a
    holding or province. Salaries are not included in that. Otherwise Domain
    Maintenance would be quite a bit higher than 5 GB for controlling as many as 30
    provinces and holdings.)

    > I have stated before that I believe all trade routes employ smuggling.

    Hmm. Well, then you have no need for the Smuggling domain action, I guess....

    Let me ask you, though, if all trade routes employ smuggling why do the rules
    require a Diplomacy action for regents to begin trade routes that cross
    borders? If one is going to smuggle one rarely asks the ruler of the land one
    is smuggling into or out of for permission. That's the point in smuggling--that
    they don't know you are doing it.

    Gary

  2. #12
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    Smuggling

    In a message dated 98-11-29 20:18:20 EST, you write:

  3. #13
    Mark A Vandermeulen
    Guest

    Smuggling

    On Fri, 27 Nov 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:

    > Here's a domain action I came up with. What do you guys think?
    >
    > Gary

    I should point out that I have already created some rules for a smuggling
    trade route in my "Create Covert Holding" domain action which is available
    in the BR Netbook. You might want to take a look at that for comparison's
    sake (it's a fairly long piece, and the smuggling's near the end, so it'll
    take some work to find it).

    Mark VanderMeulen
    vander+@pitt.edu

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